Foreign influence:How many John Kerry supporters on ATS are actually non-americans?

i am a 35 yr old AMERICAN who has been voting since i turned 18. i am an informed voter, that is i read everything i can get my hands on about a candidate, i am also a registered democrat that votes for republicans sometimes. i believe that the opinions and news from other countrys is very important to making an informed decision. our country is too large and to powerful to dicount the feelings and opinions of the world around us. that exact sentiment is what is driving the "terrorist" to attack us. i don't feel that we as a nation should follow anyone else, but the decision making of the executive order needs to understand the chain reaction that comes from some of its policymaking and decisions. the sentiment against the american people has risen to dangerous levels since the war on IRAQ began that im worried about the repercussions that are coming for us. we need to listen to others and incorporate that into decisions.

.
I was born in America.
I was raised in America.
I grew up loving the ideals i believed America represented.

Bush and his supporters use fear and intimidation to control people.
Bush and his cronies do NOTHING in support of the American People.
Bush and his cronies only pass legislation that supports CORPORATE America. [much of which has become expatriot Cayman Islands and the Bahamas Corporate America, so WE, the American PEOPLE, pay a larger share of the taxes in this country]
Bush is irresponsible on the war on terrorism.
Do you understand the principle of having a thin profile? Don't make yourself a bigger target than you need to be?
Iraq was in 20/20 hindsight a complete mistake.
Bush covered up the TRUTH ABOUT ALUMINUM TUBES by silencing the DOE about them actually being rocket tubes.

TRUTH IS THE ENEMY OF LIARS.
TRUTH IS THE ENEMY OF BUSH.

Try and paint it any way you want it, Truth makes Bush and his supporters shrivel up like putting salt on slugs.

edit: spelling

[edit on 9-10-2004 by slank]

I guess I'm 'McCarthy' for pointing out that guys from England might not really know how things are going down on the farms in Iowa these days... and that it would be a bad sign if such guys actually posed as farmers from Iowa and transmitted false impressions to american voters...

oh well...

BTW: Nerdling, how can you be a European AND carry the 'Democrat' label on the bottom of your avatar? Surely you know that only american citizens can register as a democrat?

Originally posted by Durden

So we know that the europeans hate the US, we know that.

You know the europeans hate the US?? I'll just have to repeat what I said in my previous post; wow, they've really done a number on you

Try and deny ignorance; don't embrace it.

Well most of them do.....Not all but most. UK might even be a bit better but for the most part the Western Europeans do not like America very much. The Bush Haters well outnumber the ones who like him and this replects in the general opinion of the US as well..


But we are also guilty, France the the butt of many jokes here. One of y favorites it the new French Tank...1 FWD gear 4 REV gears

Look I do not like the fact that some nations are doing everything they can to undermine the US in Iraq, things there are not a disaster to the scale that most here believe. They are not good I wil admitt but we are talking about a big country.

1100 deaths / 130,000 troops = 0.0085% Over almost 2 years!

Its a war with unconventional tactics, there will be deaths. I wish there wasnt but it is a fact......

Good site for info :
icasualties.org...

.
You poor thing, onlyinmydreams, you don't understand, democracy is far older than you and a much bigger idea than your puny little shoebox diorama of the world as only the United States.

If one has a mind that can envision a larger scope of things one can begin to glimpse, around the edges, the Big picture.

If one has, however sadly, a small dried up pea brain this becomes difficult.
.

How is it that 20,000 Iraqi deaths don't count?

Aren't the Iraqi people the ones we are going to have to hand this over to at some point relevant in this?

This shows how limited some people's vision and comprehension is.
Without the support, or at a minimum the ambivalence, of the indigenous population on the ground, WE CAN NEVER HAVE A SUCCESS IN IRAQ.
Did no one learn the lesson of Vietnam?

Without the support of Iraqis, Iraq WILL NOT function.
You people act like, "well these people have been under a dictator, so we can treat them sh*tty and they won't care".
Newsflash! They care.
Give them some respect for surviving in the world inwhich they live.
Realize the government THEY come up with may not be OUR ideals.
If we can get someone WITH SOME INTELLIGENCE in control progress may still be possible.
.

Originally posted by slank
How is it that 20,000 Iraqi deaths don't count?

Aren't the Iraqi people the ones we are going to have to hand this over to at some point relevant in this?

.

Oh they ABSOLUTELY count. They to are fighting for their country as was Cheney's argument of the fatality count being 90% American. The Iraqi's that are fighting for the freedom they will soon have are counted in my mind.

But the Press IGNORES this, and keeps saying how bad the causulties are for America....far Less than 1% in scale of total deployed. This isnt that bad when compared to other wars.....Most of the deaths to US troops are by indsurgency type tactics....They are to many but if taken in scale, it could be much worse.

Originally posted by edsinger

Well most of them do.....Not all but most. UK might even be a bit better but for the most part the Western Europeans do not like America very much.

Please show us that you are not an ignorant moron by proving this statement.

God, people attacking OIMD without answering his friggin question. Hypocrite morons, all of you, no matter what country you hail from. get a clue. His question and its intent was pretty obvious and self explainatory to even the simplest of minds.

I myself know that other coutnries watch the US elections because US polcies do affact them, so naturally, they will pick a candidate for their own musings who they feel would do better abroad.

However, something that persons not American fail to comprehend: We aren;t voting for your benefit, we are voting for ours. We are going to elect the candidate we feel is going fix OUR mess, and make America a better place for its citizens. Things that foreigners think are important are not important to American citizens at all, in some things, and others, that foreigners think are non issues, are very important. We will vote who we feel shares are values, goals and aspirations. That is what matters. the world may not like who we pick, but the world does not vote for the prez, we do.

However, in defense of liberty for all persons, foreign and domestic, I feel foreigners have a right to their own opinions and the right to voice support for whatever candidate they like. OIMD, I think you are wrong in assuming that Americans, here on ATS or elsewhere, will be in anyway swayed by the opinions of foreigners in deciding who they vote for. Americans are notoriously dogged, stubborn, and rather apethetic to the opinions of foriegners, we always have been, and always will be, so I doubt foreigners could really sway the election.

I actually enjoy, from time to time, listening to persons in other countries voice their opinions, it gives me insight and keeps me up to date. Sometimes they provide valuable insights, someimes they spew such flood of pure crap I get a good laugh out of it. But I do like the fact that there are opinions outside our own borders.

However, foreigners arent as "educated" or as "well informed" on our issues and policies as they like to think. I have learned they to are victims of media BS in their own countries, so I dont hold their ignorance of reality against them anymore than i hold it against Americans who have never learned the truth. I have found ignorance and bias is not an American monopoly. I have found people who THINK they know more than we are just about as clueless as my mother or next door neighbor. I have found they are as ignorant and biased as we are, it is just that their ignorance and bias have the opposite slant than ours, so its a new kind of bias.

So, if there are more foreign supporters of Kerry on here, i am not surprised, nor do i find it disturbing or unsettling at all. They cannot vote, and as can be seen by some of the thick headed conservatives on here, they probably arent having any effect in swaying anyones vote. They can voice their own support and opinions all they want, but in the end, American citizens will have the last say.

To answer Marg's question was is a non American? pretty simple. Any foreigner who is born and raised, of foreign born non US citizen parents, overseas, who currently and permanently reside overseas in their country of birth or elsewhere. This also goes for foreign born persons in the US who are not living here, but staying temporarily for the purpose of work, school, ect, with no relatives or such here, who are simply passing guests.

I dont know what your citizenship status is, but generally, i consider foreign born persons who live here permanetly, married or not, or who have made for themselves a familial or social base who basically have settled down here, Americans, or foreign born residents, Americans in the making, since, if they have kids here, their kids will be Americans too.

After all, thats how most of us ended up here anyway.

Also, how did this turn into a discussion on the Iraq war.

The question of this thread is:

How many John Kerry supporters on ATS are actually non-americans?

Back to the question?

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Thanks for that post, like many in these post already has said US policies are going to affect everybody in the world.

Now as who is a truth American let me see, unless your are a native American most people in the United States came from somewhere else.

Originally posted by Kriz_4

Please show us that you are not an ignorant moron by proving this statement.

I dont have to prove it, it is already a known! They dont. I ahve talked to folks that have been to europe and excluding the french who have always been that way (at least 25 years), the recepetion that Americans get is cold to say the least. They think we should be more 'global' in our thinking I guess....Oh well, you know its true...And yes it is only my opinion.


but here

www.harrisinteractive.com...

What is the point to this stupid question?

Documented or undocumented?

Anyone who lives here, PAYS TAXES and is a citizen IS an American

Just because some might come from another country that makes them stupid, irrational and a plain jackass. right?

Or it makes them a Kerry sympathiser because they dont know any better?

The fact is that Bush is an ignoramus, is a criminal and must be voted out.

It doesnt take a REAL American to see the truth.

Nobody wants a mass murderer for president.

Originally posted by edsinger
I dont have to prove it, it is already a known! They dont. I ahve talked to folks that have been to europe and excluding the french who have always been that way (at least 25 years), the recepetion that Americans get is cold to say the least. They think we should be more 'global' in our thinking I guess....Oh well, you know its true...And yes it is only my opinion.


but here

www.harrisinteractive.com...

Maybe you should read your own link next time. This is what was actually said in that survey:

New five-country survey of Western European adults shows few dislike Americans or the United States but most dislike President Bush and his foreign policies.

Notice the difference? So don't make the mistake of confusing dislike and criticism towards the Bush Administration with an alleged general hate of the US and its citizens. Because quite frankly, that's an incredibly ignorant assumption .


[edit on 9-10-2004 by Durden]

Originally posted by dgtempe


Nobody wants a mass murderer for president.

This just shows your intelligence.......that is a pretty big accusations, so I guess Clinton would be one also?

Originally posted by curme
I'm a Gay French Muslim Mason!

ewwww, then we dont want to talk to you.....

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by dgtempe


Nobody wants a mass murderer for president.

This just shows your intelligence.......that is a pretty big accusations, so I guess Clinton would be one also?

My intelligence is fine, thank you.
Who did Clinton murder?

This shows your intelligence. Yep, big accusations is my thing.
But they're TRUE.

Originally posted by slank
.
You poor thing, onlyinmydreams, you don't understand, democracy is far older than you and a much bigger idea than your puny little shoebox diorama of the world as only the United States.
.

Yes, 'democracy' is far bigger than the US (which is kinda our point in Iraq, isn't it?)... but democracy only works if it involves an accountable citizenry and community. Democracy DOES NOT mean that people anywhere get to decide what goes on in one particular community (and it doesn't mean they get to trick those people without getting called out for it). Democracy is a form of government... which means that a democratic government is responsible for, and responsive to, the people who set it up and mainatin it. A democratic government is not a free for all where people who are not a part of the community get to decide the laws of the community (such a thing, actually, would be the opposite of democracy... because it would mean that a community of citizens was taking orders from people who are not a part of the community). Americans make up the american polity... not Europeans. If we presume that it's ok for foreigners to have a say in american democracy (for the sake of the ideals behind democracy)... and that it's morally 'ok' for foreigners to use dirty tricks to influence american democracy... then we are also saying that American sovereignity should be surrendered to the world in general.

Now how many of you guys actually believe in that?

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams


Yes, 'democracy' is far bigger than the US (which is kinda our point in Iraq, isn't it?)... but democracy only works if it involves an accountable citizenry and community. Democracy DOES NOT mean that people anywhere get to decide what goes on in one particular community (and it doesn't mean they get to trick those people without getting called out for it). Democracy is a form of government... which means that a democratic government is responsible for, and responsive to, the people who set it up and mainatin it. A democratic government is not a free for all where people who are not a part of the community get to decide the laws of the community (such a thing, actually, would be the opposite of democracy... because it would mean that a community of citizens was taking orders from people who are not a part of the community). Americans make up the american polity... not Europeans. If we presume that it's ok for foreigners to have a say in american democracy (for the sake of the ideals behind democracy)... and that it's morally 'ok' for foreigners to use dirty tricks to influence american democracy... then we are also saying that American sovereignity should be surrendered to the world in general.

Now how many of you guys actually believe in that?

OIMD, the opinions of independant foreigners is not going to influence American elections. Ill say it again, since when do Americans listen to foreigners anyway? usually, most Americans tell em off or go off into nonsensical rants, their views unswayed.

The opinions of independant foreign supporters of Kerry is not a danger to democracy or our national soverignty. What would be a real danger is if foreign govornments gave support, monetary and otherwise, to a candidate. Thats a real danger, something Bush (the Saudis support him) and Clinton (the Chinese and North Koreans supported him) were both guilty of.

Now, if foreign govornments are actively giving support to kerry, THAT would be an issue of great concern, and if someone has evidence of it, Id be MORE than interested in seeing it.

But as far as the opinions and support from individual people who are not American, who may want kerry to win, I hardly think of it as dangerous or disturbing, because those people have their views and opinions, but no power to cast a vote.

And I agree. Anyone who lives here, pays taxes, works, is an American citizen, evenm if legally they are not. If they have established themselves as permanent residents and have chose to live here and settle here, they are Americans.

Originally posted by dgtempe
Who did Clinton murder?

This shows your intelligence. Yep, big accusations is my thing.
But they're TRUE.

Does Kosovo count?

www.monde-diplomatique.fr...