World leaders promoting tolerance; but what do you really know about Islam?

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by DeadSnow

 

Okay, well at least you are asking my opinion instead of claiming you already know. The Koran was the result of 'divine revelation' to Mohammed. He claimed that he was visited by the angel Gabriel over a period of 22 years, who dictated masses of material for him to record in memory, and which was later written down. It was not anything to do with Judaism or Christianity, though Mohammed had former contact with Jews when they jointly persecuted Christians, before the 'revelations' began.

You realize it's all the same God right?

It's called the Abrahamic Faiths for a reason you know.

~Tenth

reply to post by DeadSnow


The Koran tells Muslims to fight against Christians and Jews, until they are in utter subjection to them, and pay tribute. essentially until they are dead or slaves.

That is the plain truth, printed in black and white in the pages of the Koran. The Koran also states that Christians are heretical blasphemers.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


Like I said she came from a very very strict family, you're in no position to correct me.

You have obviously not seen the Youtube video of a recent rally in Egypt, where Muslim Brotherhood campaigners were whipping the crowd into a frenzy, getting them ready for Martyrdom with threats to march on Jerusalem. There were a couple of threads about it. Mind control, brainwashing. It's all conditioned behaviour arising out of the bloodthirsty literature found in the Koran.

No, But I know a lot of soldiers that are full of self hate and are traumatized by their actions towards 'the enemy'. Are these people not trained to kill and desensitized? Human after all...

'Character' does not exist in certain spheres of Islamic society. Everyone is a conditioned slave of Islam. Everyone has roughly the same thoughts, and nobody is free to disagree. Mind control.

Character exists within every single human being, regardless of ethnicity, location or gender.

Online Quran for ya!
quran.com...

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Sigh. No, it is not the same God, that is a deception and a common illusion.

I don't have the energy to explain this now, but I can assure you that the collective naming of these three faiths as 'Abrahamic' was no accident...

One faith is a precursor - a preparatory statement of divine intent. Second faith was the fulfilment of prophetic promises, the plan of God revealed, the first faith being brought to maturity.

Third 'faith' (totalitarian life-system) was a clever counterfeit, designed by our Enemy to lead men away from the truth by muddying the waters of Abrahamic revelation, and to effectively destroy or subjugate the other two faith groups as far as possible.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


your full full of crap mate surah 9:12 go's like this
but if they violate their oaths after their covenant ,and taunt you for your faith fight you the chiefs of unfaith for their oaths are nothing to them that thus they may be restrained

so every thing you have spouted is complete rubbish and you know it ya Muppet

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

Sigh. No, it is not the same God, that is a deception and a common illusion.

No, it's not deception to those who aren't blinded by their own faith. It's all the same God. The God from the Koran is just as violent, mean spirited and non-relevant as the one in the Old or New Testament.

I don't have the energy to explain this now, but I can assure you that the collective naming of these three faiths as 'Abrahamic' was no accident...

If you don't care to provide information regarding your points, then why did you come here to discuss that exact topic?

One faith is a precursor - a preparatory statement of divine intent. Second faith was the fulfilment of prophetic promises, the plan of God revealed, the first faith being brought to maturity.

Again, no, all faiths were written by men. The idea that these were the words of God is no more valid, or proven that that of the Greeks and their myths of Olympus.

Third 'faith' (totalitarian life-system) was a clever counterfeit, designed by our Enemy to lead men away from the truth by muddying the waters of Abrahamic revelation, and to effectively destroy or subjugate the other two faith groups as far as possible.

There is nothing totalitrian about Christianity or Judaism? Come on, you can't say that with a straight face. Religion in general, notably the Abrahamic Faiths are the MOST violent and cohersive religions on the planet.

Tere's 3000 years of recorded murdering in God's name on both sides of the isle to prove that my friend.

~Tenth

reply to post by DeadSnow


I don't understand you. I already stated that I was in no position to make assumptions, so why are you forcing that one on me? If these people had followed the letter of instruction in the Koran, you would have been in serious trouble for dating her. Simple as that. Our interpretations of strict observance are obviously at loggerheads here, but it is a trifling matter in context of the larger picture. Let's just leave our difference of opinion to one side for now.

You cannot compare the effects of modern warfare upon our soldiers, to the effects had by a totalitarian religious regime upon generations of Muslims, consisting of billions, who have been subjected to the same continual brainwashing.

It is akin to equating a playground scuffle with World War 2.

I'm not minimising the problems of combat fatigue or PTSD, I'm just saying it is in a different ballpark.


I maintain that 'character', as defined by the freedom to be creative, to love life and express oneself in any of a myriad different ways, does not exist within certain spheres of Islamic territory. There is an expectation of what your character will be, and you are forced by your circumstance to express that expected character. There is no freedom of movement. Those who stand out are at risk.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

Sigh. No, it is not the same God, that is a deception and a common illusion. I don't have the energy to explain this now, but I can assure you that the collective naming of these three faiths as 'Abrahamic' was no accident... One faith is a precursor - a preparatory statement of divine intent. Second faith was the fulfilment of prophetic promises, the plan of God revealed, the first faith being brought to maturity. Third 'faith' (totalitarian life-system) was a clever counterfeit, designed by our Enemy to lead men away from the truth by muddying the waters of Abrahamic revelation, and to effectively destroy or subjugate the other two faith groups as far as possible.

Well my hat goes off to Islam for not having a trinity, not celebrating Xmas or Easter, not believing in the Resurrection of Jesus and his crucifixion and believing he was a mere messenger and not God. Also the fact that they never worship on 'Sun'day.

Sure like every religion it has its flaws but If Islam is a religion of hate and opposite to the word of God how can you explain Christianity's pagan aspects?

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

I don't understand you. I already stated that I was in no position to make assumptions, so why are you forcing that one on me? If these people had followed the letter of instruction in the Koran, you would have been in serious trouble for dating her. Simple as that. Our interpretations of strict observance are obviously at loggerheads here, but it is a trifling matter in context of the larger picture. Let's just leave our difference of opinion to one side for now.

I have been in far worse situations dating strict Christians, no joke. The Bible also forbids romance before marriage, you have once again contradicted yourself.

You cannot compare the effects of modern warfare upon our soldiers, to the effects had by a totalitarian religious regime upon generations of Muslims, consisting of billions, who have been subjected to the same continual brainwashing.

Christians and Jews have had a couple more hundred years of brainwashing, why doesn't that make them as dangerous as Muslims?

The Koran also states that Christians are heretical blasphemers.

Does anyone in the thread object to this?

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Look - the point is, I have a long-standing medical condition which gets me tired. So after a lot of writing, I tend to be too tired to answer such critical replies. The one thing which your obviously excellent logic and grasp of reason have failed to take hold of - is the reality of spiritual forces. Unless you accept the reality of spiritual forces, you cannot fathom the activities of God, or discern between the true and false in this sphere of human activity. You consider these works to be the product of men's imaginations. I consider two of them to be at the inspiration of God - not saying every word came from the mouth of God, just saying that the overriding trends and themes, and in places the exact words, were inspired by God. The other, later religion, is inspired by a force which is vehemently opposed to Christ, as can be seen in the direct quotes from the Koran itself.

Judaism was the precursor, Christ was the fulfilment. The Koran comes later, and is designed to undermine the teachings of Christianity. If you study the actual theology of each religion (Christianity and Islam) - you will see that one, in principle, is all about forgiveness, inclusivity and grace, living in harmony with the state and doing good works of charity, living in humility before God. The other is about brutality - in the family, and all the way up to the level of the state. Islam states that God is unknowable, and that Heaven is a place of lust and debauchery, where brutality on earth will be rewarded with sex a plenty. Christianity states that the infinite God cares about mankind, and about each person individually. Heaven is a mystery - we are told that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has conceived of what God has prepared for those who love Him. We are admonished to maintain sexual purity on Earth, as debauchery is not representative of God and His ways.

It is NOT the same God.

reply to post by DeadSnow


No, I have not contradicted myself - stop making things up. This mini-thread of ours was about the risk to your well-being that might be expected if you dated a Muslim girl from a truly strict Muslim family.

If we had been talking about sex before marriage, I would have had a frank and open discussion with you about that - but we weren't.

reply to post by DeadSnow


no i dont object but i would like him to explain why none of his references to the qur'an are true none of them say what he say's they say

he probably thinks im black with a big tooth as well

reply to post by DeadSnow


Your other comments are just plain silly.

When was the last time a Christian strapped on a bomb and blew up as many people as they could indiscriminately, believing that God would reward such?

No Christian believes that God rewards brutality, warfare and bloodshed.

Jewish people have moved on to a point where they tend to live in a civilised way, although some of the Israeli foreign policy is suspect to say the least. However, the Israeli government is secular, and do not follow Judaism in order to determine their political meanderings.

Finally - so you think that Christians are heretical blasphemers, or are you just trying to rile me?

I think we've said enough to each other for now. Try doing some research into the actual activities of Muslim fundamentalists and the activities of Christian fundamentalists. You might find the beliefs of the Christian fundamentalists a bit offensive in parts, but they sure as hell don't intend to blow you up for not choosing to follow their religion.

I am not a fundamentalist, by the way - I don't believe in a literal 6 day creation, and I believe that we are in no position to judge any man (lots of Christians preach quite aggressively against 'sinners'). We are, however, in a position to discern the true nature of the powers and principalities of this world, and that includes ideological structures, as well as spiritual forces of evil.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


and you mite find your better saying mossad fundamentalists not Muslim and your qur'an quotes are wrong

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

Look - the point is, I have a long-standing medical condition which gets me tired. So after a lot of writing, I tend to be too tired to answer such critical replies. The one thing which your obviously excellent logic and grasp of reason have failed to take hold of - is the reality of spiritual forces. Unless you accept the reality of spiritual forces, you cannot fathom the activities of God, or discern between the true and false in this sphere of human activity. You consider these works to be the product of men's imaginations. I consider two of them to be at the inspiration of God - not saying every word came from the mouth of God, just saying that the overriding trends and themes, and in places the exact words, were inspired by God. The other, later religion, is inspired by a force which is vehemently opposed to Christ, as can be seen in the direct quotes from the Koran itself.

I'm skeptical of spiritual forces. I'm an agnostic atheist after all, even if that doesn't make sense to most people. In any case, if you think that those scriptures were inspired by God, then you must admit that all other religions, which are considerably identical to Christianity ( some 2600 jesus like figures throughout history) were also the result of inspiration via divine speech.

Also if you admit to the Bible or any of it's subsequent teachings to be polluted by the thoughts of men, then is it possible that the Koran was also polluted in this way, perhaps a bit more abrupt than the others?

Seems to me that if one is corrupted so would all the others no? I just find it ironic that those who claim that the Koran was the work of Satan or men for that matter do not include such thoughts in their own faiths.

Judaism was the precursor, Christ was the fulfilment. The Koran comes later, and is designed to undermine the teachings of Christianity. If you study the actual theology of each religion (Christianity and Islam) - you will see that one, in principle, is all about forgiveness, inclusivity and grace, living in harmony with the state and doing good works of charity, living in humility before God. The other is about brutality - in the family, and all the way up to the level of the state. Islam states that God is unknowable, and that Heaven is a place of lust and debauchery, where brutality on earth will be rewarded with sex a plenty. Christianity states that the infinite God cares about mankind, and about each person individually. Heaven is a mystery - we are told that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has conceived of what God has prepared for those who love Him. We are admonished to maintain sexual purity on Earth, as debauchery is not representative of God and His ways.

You see that's my real problem with the whole religion thing. Why in the name of anything would God care where you put your penis or other sexual organs? This whole moral God thing is very confusing, considering he has no problem smitting those who disagree with him and sent his armies on crusades throughout the known world way back in the day to slaughter anybody who didn't believe in him.

You see how that contradicts the whole loving God thing? Don't you see how men who wrote books attempting to govern other's behavior is not a good indication of God or his will? Doesn't it make more sense that God would want you to follow the Golden Rule instead of something that requires you to submit your own free will to a bunch of people who aren't Christ like at all ( the church?).

Or to a bunch of moral values that are spurious to say the least?

~Tenth

reply to post by seethetruth


Islam is not a continuation of the revelation to the Jews, because the Messianic prophecy in the Old Testament was fulfilled in Christ. The teachings of the Koran are diametrically opposed to the teachings of Christ, and deny the fundamental tenets of His earthly ministry.

Don't go calling me a dumbass either - I posted in a respectful way, and I expect the same in return. Just because you don't believe the same as me, doesn't mean you have to get all personal.

That's the way violence starts in the real world. Luckily we're on an internet forum, and I don't feel threatened by you personally.

I'll be happy to look into the Barnabus connection, it's new to me, but I don't for a moment believe that the God I know would want to be associated with the hate-filled spiritism/channeling of a confirmed and unrepentant paedophile. Not after Christ had ministered about the need to protect children from evil and sin. No way.

A tree is known by it fruit.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

When was the last time a Christian strapped on a bomb and blew up as many people as they could indiscriminately, believing that God would reward such?

About two months ago here, They've also been known to bomb Mosques and vice versa.

No Christian believes that God rewards brutality, warfare and bloodshed.

Is that why Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son? What was up with the Missionaries forcefully converting and killing innocent people, throughout Europe, South America, Africa and Asia?, Why did they see it fit to destroy other religious beliefs and relics?, We all know Christianity is the worlds dominate religion, the question is...How do you figure it spread so fast without bloodshed?

However, the Israeli government is secular, and do not follow Judaism in order to determine their political meanderings.

The same can be said for the Islamic terrorists.

Finally - so you think that Christians are heretical blasphemers, or are you just trying to rile me?

I just think they always seem to see flaws in other religions except their own.

I believe that we are in no position to judge any man (lots of Christians preach quite aggressively against 'sinners').

Your last paragraph proves otherwise.

reply to post by seethetruth


Uh...I think the man in your DP is of Middle eastern decent!

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


i have a qur'an and bible and the quotes you gave in the qur'an are not correct but you keep avoiding answering this and i did call you dumb ass because you had annoyed me and i should of resorted to any type of name calling so i do apologizes for the dumb ass comment

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I will respond in depth to your legitimate questions; I can see that you are genuinely perturbed by the question of corrupt religion. It is a question which no believer should shy away from. I will in fact write a new thread, addressing some of the more common misconceptions of the Christian faith, which is my own (obviously). I will invite comments, criticisms, questions, and will try to answer as best as I can.

Particularly important is the question of sexual purity. There are practical considerations to this instruction as found in the New Testament - but once again, an understanding of the reality of spiritual forces is needed before the true reason can be acceptable to our modern ears.

I will aim to make it clear in the new thread. For now, I exit this thread, and expect that a huge pile of vitriol will pile up in my absence. It is understandable, and expected. I don't mean to offend, but neither do I want to leave the question of institutionalized violence and other forms of brutality as intrinsic within the Islamic core doctrines unanswered.