I found an obvious glaring problem with the gun club story

I'd like to start with an apology to the staff of ATS. I fully realize that everyone and their mother is creating a thread for every aspect of this, but I feel this particular topic deserves a special scrutiny by the more talented investigators here on ATS, and I'd like to bring it to the forefront for anyone that may wish to dig into this tidbit a little more.

Secondly, I would like to make it aware that my personal feelings of this event are that James Holmes was somehow drugged/manipulated into doing this. I would wish that the specifics of that statement are not argued here, as this thread pertains to that theory. Speculations on my findings only, please.

And here we go.

About an hour and half ago, Reuters posted an article entitled "Colorado shooter: a high achiever's abrupt descent"
Link

Inside that article is a small interview with Glenn Rotkovich, owner of the gun range in Byers, Colorado.
The snippet of that conversation is small, so here it is:

Less than a month before the shootings, Holmes emailed Glenn Rotkovich, who owns a gun range in Byers, Colorado, requesting a membership. Rotkovich called the contact number Holmes had left on the application and got a voice mail message he said could only be described as "bizarre, freakish." He could make out just a few words, he said; most of it sounded like a "guttural rambling." Rotkovich said he warned other members at the gun range to watch out for Holmes -- who never did show up at the facility. "I've learned to listen to my gut," Rotkovich said, "and there was something wrong there, something weird."

Now, my very small, but very important points to make are these:

#1: SOMEONE (Read: not James Holmes) contacted the gun range to request membership via email, and left a contact number. Can we get Mr. Rotkovich to release the data in the email showing it's routing and origin? It's included in every email that's ever been sent, ever.

#2: No one answered the phone when Mr. Rotkovich called (Read: Planned burner phone), instead he got a bizarre rambling voice mail. Was it our suspect, James Holmes, who indeed left that voice mail recording? What is the contact number? Can we trace it to him, in any way?

#3: Very suspicious nature of his answers. The phrases "guttural rambling" and "something wrong there, something weird". If it was indeed James Holmes who left the message, what drug might induce such a state while speaking into a phone? I imagine him with stroke-like symptoms as he's leaving the message, with a man in a black suit sitting next to him with syringes.

#4: We need, and I'll say that again, we NEED to know whether or not that phone rang 4 times and went to voicemail, like a normal cell phone that isn't answered, or if the voicemail immediately came on after connection. This information can be useful in finding out where that phone physically was on the date in question. If the phone was on, the tower that directed the call made a log of it.

I personally believe that picking apart this gun club story into little tiny bits is the way to prove whether or not this is the false flag that most of us believe it is. I seek the assistance of anyone who might be able to help this process. The whole story reeks of unintelligent foresight. Whoever planned this didn't think of every angle. There is a mistake in the planning of this horrid event somewhere, and I truly believe it's up to us conspiracy nuts to find it before it's too late.
Thanks for reading.

reply to post by mattdel
I can jive with this angle.

My first impression upon reading the excerpt, was, how did this guy come to realize that it was "James Holmes" he was dealing with? I.E. Did he see the name in the papers which jogged his memory about the application or what? Just seems he's quite detailed regarding a random call that occurred a month ago.

Nearly everything I'm reading seems to have an agenda other than reporting the news. Not cool!

ETA: I know this is wandering off topic, but the article you sourced makes it very much seem like dude was framed. So by the account of one person in the doctoral program, Holmes didn't show up at the pub for a year end "impromptu" celebration, and a professor came by instead to tell the group that Holmes had withdrawn... yet the article stops short of saying point blank that it was due to grades, but rather the "clear implication" that he'd fallen behind. So this is a person telling the media what another person (the professor) implicated? Hm.

ETA: So this gun club has applications that can be filled out online? Or is the article using "application" loosely, counting Holmes' supposed email as the app?

reply to post by mattdel


what do you think about his signature on the gun form? Like someone else mentioned... it looks like a computer font!... very strange

But about his voice... from the video I've seen of him giving a lecture/speech... his voice was surprisingly deep.

the gun range manager is on FOX news right now being interviewed!

Plus he is tall and the eye witness said 5 8 for the shooter he saw, though there could have been a partner. So it doesnt add up I see a patsy who didn't do it and he has angry glaring eyes too.

I cover this a little more detailed in my thread here. www.abovetopsecret.com...
There was more to Glenn Rotkovichs testimony than what was put into your posted article. Does this change your angle? I don't know but I thought you would like the detail. The article is sourced at the bottom of my thread.

Originally posted by 08051962
reply to post by mattdel

 

what do you think about his signature on the gun form? Like someone else mentioned... it looks like a computer font!... very strange

But about his voice... from the video I've seen of him giving a lecture/speech... his voice was surprisingly deep.

the gun range manager is on FOX news right now being interviewed!

edit on 23-7-2012 by 08051962 because: (no reason given)

I was not aware that there was a gun form floating around. Gun registration form, I assume? That might help in here too. Could you find this again?

ETA: Nevermind. It's in his thread ^^^

Reply to post by mattdel

This is interesting, when I read about the owner of the gun garage earlier in another thread I was under the impression they had met face to face at some point and after he heard the voicemail became creeped out. Then reconized Holmes when he saw his picture in the media. It is extremely odd that he reconized the shooter based off an email and voicemail.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Anyone good with Photoshop? I've personally witnessed someone with the ability to remove black lines from text, so I know it's possible, especially these which appears to be nothing more than a brush tool.

reply to post by mattdel


I don't know. It just sounds like a news plant to me to set the public's perception of the shooter. Story may be true or completely made up.

But I think the whole idea of the dude being drugged up by some MIB hanging over his shoulder with a syringe is actually disinfo to make us ATS types look crazy. I mean that's just absurd in my opinion. Do you know how many people already drug themselves up? Why would MIB need to do it?

My own friend just ODed (accidentally) on his prescriptions a couple months ago and basically went crazy, destroyed his apartment, and the police found him walking downtown naked. He didn't know who he was or where he was. And that's on drugs he's SUPPOSED to take? For all I know he was planning on eating someone's face off.

Imagine how much you can mess yourself up when you're just trying drugs at random? Perhaps even random exotic drugs you may find in a Neroscience department? If he was really messing himself up, it would explain the voice mail greeting.

The only thing missing is how did he afford that gear? That's really the only thing that needs to be explained. If he got it from his parents or from taking out extra student loans or something to pay for it? Sorry, not a false flag. He obviously was just a nut that used his own money.

If he got it from somewhere else? False flag. That's the thing if you were MIB and trying to do an attack like this, you would just go undercover and find some dude that's already drugged himself out of his mind and convince him to blow something up with you. Easy to find in this day and age. Then provide all the funding. As far as he knows the whole time you're just another terrorist that's gonna blow stuff up with him.

However, when the attack actually goes down? You just let the patsy into the exit door while you exit to get your weapons out of your car. Just as planned. You need someone on the inside to open the door. However, as soon as he starts shooting, instead of getting your weapons, you get in your little red car and drive off. Never fire a shot. Out of his mind dude sobers up a week later and realizes he's been played. EZPZ.

The only question that really needs answered is where he got the gear and where the money to pay for it came from.

reply to post by tinfoilman


Couple things quickly...

Number one, the definition of disinfo is basically someone trying to make you believe a patently false story for agenda driven reasons. My opinions and viewpoints therefore cannot fall under the category of disinfo. You perceive it as such because you disagree with my theory of the events that have transpired. Thats ok, you're allowed to disagree, but don't say that my personal opinion of the matter is disinfo until at least such a time whereas that can be proven. I could easily say that your depiction of the event is disinfo, but I don't, because it's not, yet.

Secondly I asked that only the topic at hand be discussed. There's other threads with hundreds of pages containing everyone's overall theories. If you wish I could link to you one. I don't want this one becoming a cluster of everyone's individual theories of the entire event. I want the 4 points I brought forward to join the collective hivemind.

reply to post by 08051962


That signature is a computer font. Not that that's unusual. Most people never bother to digitize their signature, and many probably wouldn't know how to add their digitized signature to an online PDF form anyway. It wouldn't be too odd that someone intelligent could find a script font to emulate a signature.

(I'm sure that's a fairly common font; I use many fonts everyday, and I sort-of recognize it. I looked for it for a couple of minutes, but then realized it's a waste of effort. Someone who has a large collection of fonts and interested in finding it, be my guest.)

Edit: Sorry to be complicit in derailing your thread, OP; it's just that there's no need to indiscriminately throw more blind conspiracies into one that's already become so complex....

reply to post by mattdel


Well you're probably not going to find out how many times the phone rang because it probably didn't ring. If it was a false flag then the story is probably just a plant and either completely, or mostly made up.

They'll probably never release the email because it probably doesn't exist and so forth. And you'll probably never hear the voice mail greeting either. It's just a never ending tale of asking for evidence that doesn't exist and so we end up looking like the crazy ones.

Even if they did show it, it would just be fabricated. The application form could be fake. They could make a fake voice greeting and email and so forth to make it sound however they want and release it. Just like Obama's BC. Even if they release the evidence and it's all obviously faked, we would still look like the crazy ones for pointing it out. Because nobody will believe a lie that big is a lie.

Also, the story could be completely legit, but still be a false flag. Perhaps whoever was working with the patsy is the one that actually filled out the form and changed his voice mail and sent the email and what not. We don't know. After all, the actual shooter never showed up right? Maybe that's because he didn't know anything about it?

The only real question is where the money came from.

I'm leaning towards mental problems, maybe a tumor or something else physical that would slowly cause this guy to go over the cliff of reality.

The only false flag here that I would speculate on is one to limit the 2nd amendment, and that we can look directly at our liberal brothers and sisters...

As world events this is small and unnoticed throughout most of the world...

Personally I believe where the money came from is a moot point. We know nothing of his past or present financial resources. So far everyone's take on that is he used refunded tuition or grant money. Even if that's not true, it doesn't really matter. Money can only be traced so far. If he's been stockpiling quarters since he was 6 years old he could fund this without leaving a trace. It would simply show as spent money with no discernible origin. Chasing the money trail is a bad avenue, I believe, if one was trying to find out who's behind this. It's entirely too easy to wash money. It's not easy, however, to access cell tower mainframes and wipe data from them concerning 1 particular phone. Thus, my thoughts on the cell.

reply to post by mattdel


Well the point is, if he saved his own money up and used it to buy the guns, used his own money to buy the ammo, used his own money to buy tactical gear and tear gas, used his own money to set up the bombs in his apartment.

Then used his own money to get drugged up and go on a shooting spree. Then it's not a false flag lol. You've left nothing for the Government to do? If that's your argument then what exactly is the part that you suspect the Government actually played in the attack? Looks like he took care of it all by himself.

reply to post by tinfoilman


I never claimed that he funded it. You did. I simply said trying to find the source of the money is a long, arduous journey that will end up at a brick wall. Meanwhile, the clock on the tower logs expiration is ticking.

reply to post by tinfoilman


My wonder at this point in the discussion is that if he paid for everything himself at a cost of over $9000(found in a source included in my thread linked in my last post of this thread). Why would he be having financial problems and withdrawing from his PhD studies? It had to be a conscious choice to quit school and it had nothing to do with financial issues or the money came from somewhere else.

reply to post by mattdel


Well I'm sure they're checking his email/computer records/phone records right now or will as soon as they can and what not and try to piece together as much of the shooters history as they can in the days before the attack. That is a very common thing to do with suspects like this.

However, if it's really a false flag though even if his cell records showed he was sleeping in an underground base every night and calling an FBI contact everyday, they're probably going to leave those parts out. So I don't know if we'll learn anything meaningful like that.

Originally posted by Agarta

My wonder at this point i the discussion is that if he paid for everything himself at a cost of over $9000(found in a source included in my thread linked in my last post of this thread). Why would he be having financial problems and withdrawing from his PhD studies? It had to be a conscious choice to quit school and it had nothing to do with financial issues or the money came from somewhere else.

Working on his PHD...not hard to get a credit card and it seems he wasn't looking to stay around long enough to worry if it would hurt his credit rating if he didn't pay it off...

reply to post by Ex_CT2


DOH! You're right... I absolutely forgot about digital signatures.
I've never personally done it, but I have run across forms that have given me that option.

Thanks.