Religious nutjobs spread the blame for Aurora shooting

reply to post by charles1952

Change "absolute proof" to "evidence," and I'm with you.

Yes, it could go either way. I used absolute proof, because when I first started to lose my faith in Christianity, the Bible was always presented as the only evidence needed. The couple of hours I've spent in thread is the most I've spent thinking about Christianity for decades. Normally, I don't spend any of my time trying to invalidate Christianity. I have this week off and wanted something to do. I honestly don't care how other people choose to worship, as long as it is not harming another person.

But none of the verses in the Old Testament are no longer true. Let me try to explain my thinking. When God (or Jehovah, or whoever) addressed the people of Israel with all these laws and rules, it is true that he presented them, and true that they were for the Hebrews. They just don't apply to Christians, they're not false, Christ provided a different set of rules for life, a much simpler set.

Ok. If the Old Testament is invalidated, then who is Jesus? Who was his father? Why should we care about Jesus, if we cant give his father at least credit for the creation? We know nothing about the father, if we disregard the Old Testament. That means we might not even know what Jesus is saving us from.

Besides, unlike Islam, Christianity does not claim that its scripture was copied word for word from God's mouth (or was it an angel's?). If there is a mistake some where in the Bible, it's easy to credit human error. If there's an error in the Koran, then you can throw that book out

I've never been a fan of Islam. I think the world is better off without anyone who thinks it is proper to stone a women for the crime of being rape.

Basically, I don't like anyone who has any reason to harm someone, except in self defense.

Gee Whiz, guys it's an anlalogy.

John 15:6 - If a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (emphasis added)

He's talking about branches being gathered up by workers and burned. I do that in my back yard every year. He's pretty clearly not saying that sinners will be gathered up my men and thrown in the fire as a literal description of what will happen. The big threat to me is the cast forth business, I don't want to be thrown out as a worthless branch.

reply to post by Malcher

I have never even seen that, dont misconstrue me with being an avid bible reader.

That said, the verse is referring to after death.

You shouldn't regret your participation, but you dont have to participate in the thread.

I'm not an avid Bible reader, either. I do have one in front of me now. My family makes sure I am well stocked with Bibles. As a minor, I read and memorized the Bible. It was by coercion. I enjoyed not being beaten for not knowing my Sunday School verses.

I am certain Jesus is talking about in life, and not in death. To abide in Jesus is to believe. To be cast from the branch is to be seperated from the believers. Withering happens in captivity. And so on.

I only regret that I may never be able to respect all of the Christians in my life again. I come to ATS to wake up to reality. I just woke up a little more. I haven't questioned my lack of faith for a long time. After researching for this thread, I now have all the tools I need to justify my lack of faith. I feel sad because so many who read this will be too blind to see the truth.

reply to post by charles1952

He's talking about branches being gathered up by workers and burned. I do that in my back yard every year. He's pretty clearly not saying that sinners will be gathered up my men and thrown in the fire as a literal description of what will happen. The big threat to me is the cast forth business, I don't want to be thrown out as a worthless branch.

Jesus is using a metaphor. He liked to do that alot.

If a man abides not in me (If a man does not believe in Jesus)

he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered (He is treated like a bad branch and is removed from the vine. The
vine is the society of believers)

and men gather them (the non believers are collected)

and cast them into the fire, and they are burned (the non believers are burned in fire)

Originally posted by tamusan
reply to post by charles1952

 

He's talking about branches being gathered up by workers and burned. I do that in my back yard every year. He's pretty clearly not saying that sinners will be gathered up my men and thrown in the fire as a literal description of what will happen. The big threat to me is the cast forth business, I don't want to be thrown out as a worthless branch.

Jesus is using a metaphor. He liked to do that alot.

If a man abides not in me (If a man does not believe in Jesus)

he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered (He is treated like a bad branch and is removed from the vine. The
vine is the society of believers)

and men gather them (the non believers are collected)

and cast them into the fire, and they are burned (the non believers are burned in fire)

Right, and I refuse to consider myself as a worthless branch because of my lack of belief in Bible stories.

The Bible is full of double blind safe guards to ensure the masses don't stray from what the church wants them to believe.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by tamusan
reply to post by charles1952

 

He's talking about branches being gathered up by workers and burned. I do that in my back yard every year. He's pretty clearly not saying that sinners will be gathered up my men and thrown in the fire as a literal description of what will happen. The big threat to me is the cast forth business, I don't want to be thrown out as a worthless branch.

Jesus is using a metaphor. He liked to do that alot.

If a man abides not in me (If a man does not believe in Jesus)

he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered (He is treated like a bad branch and is removed from the vine. The
vine is the society of believers)

and men gather them (the non believers are collected)

and cast them into the fire, and they are burned (the non believers are burned in fire)

Right, and I refuse to consider myself as a worthless branch because of my lack of belief in Bible stories.

The Bible is full of double blind safe guards to ensure the masses don't stray from what the church wants them to believe.

I dont see why you look at it that way. You dont believe in an after life, isnt that right? So what do you think happens after people die?

Same for Buddhists, people reincarnate according to their deeds during life. If you do bad deeds you may not even come back as a human. Should that bother me? I dont really think about it at all.

reply to post by Malcher

Should that bother me? I dont really think about it at all.

There is our common ground. After I found truth in my chosen philosophy, I never think about it either. I look at what I see around me and try to learn what I can in this life. I still question whether or not I will reincarnate if ask what I believe. I believe the truly enlightened have questioned everything and have clearly defined our reality. I have a lot of catching up to do.

I don't worry about what happens after death, because I strive to help others, who are not looking to take advantage of my good will.

reply to post by Malcher

I dont see why you look at it that way. You dont believe in an after life, isnt that right? So what do you think happens after people die?

"John 15:6 - If a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. "

The problem that I have with this piece of scripture is the possessive pronoun of "me". In this case the "me" supposedly is Jesus, not "my words" or "what I'm telling you" it's abide in "me" (Jesus) or you will be a worthless branch.

So, this is put forth in such a way that I must believe in "Jesus" or be tossed in the fire. Who is this Jesus I MUST abide with, or believe in? He was supposedly born of a virgin, never sinned, was an incarnate god who came to die for my sins, was resurrected from the dead and will come again in fiery anger to destroy those old branches and reclaim the fruit.

The church says believe this story we've put together for you, or burn in hell! No, i don't believe and I can't force myself to believe something that my own critical thinking says is nonsense. So, I reject the Christian ideology of who Jesus was, and the redeemer dogma. I don't believe in hell or in Satan either.

Same for Buddhists, people reincarnate according to their deeds during life. If you do bad deeds you may not even come back as a human. Should that bother me? I dont really think about it at all.

But the scripture we are talking about ignores the issue of good deeds and only suggests "belief" in a resurrected redeemer. Christianity suggests that the Karma that Buddha talked of is usurped by the death of Jesus, and reincarnation is bypassed as we go straight to "paradise, or limbo, or heaven or hell."

What Buddha suggested in his teachings was a fair and balanced spiritual journey according to your own spiritual development. He said suffering is from the ego's addiction to the material world, and our reincarnation is a continuation of a learning process of the spiritual journey of the soul.

Personally, I would relish being someones pampered house cat next time, I could use a break from the struggles of survival. Buddha recounted his past lives as a Jaguar and an elephant and a whale, cool stuff.

It is my belief that the true teachings of Jesus were not included in the Bible and what we do have is scattered pieces of truth mingled in with a lot of lies and skewed mythology. We can't base morality on the blind faith following of contrived scripture but on what is etched on our souls to recognize what is truth and what is deceit.

reply to post by windword

We can't base morality on the blind faith following of contrived scripture but on what is etched on our souls to recognize what is truth and what is deceit.

Exactly, and that is what made me start to question Christianity at a young age.

Until yesterday, I thought that I should not interfere with anothers religion or try to or put much effort out to discredit it. I believed that it was harmful to the indvidual. I had an attitude of let it be, if it helps them make it through each day.

"John 15:6 - If a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. "

I can see how you draw the belief that this verse means we will be condemned to hell for our lack of belief in the Lord, Jesus Christ. However, I am also sticking to my previous interpretation. As someone who was indoctrinated into Christianty from birth, and suffered two decades of blind belief, I know how the scriptures are used. I know what a charasmatic leader could use that verse to get people to do. Read the entire chapter of John 15 or better yet the entire book. I'm reading through my entire bible Suddenly, I have become afraid. Not of God, but of Christians.

I'm at the crossroads today. Do I continue on my quest, and ignore the religions of others? Or do I join those who are trying to down religion.

reply to post by tamusan


Yep, the Bible is a double blind set of rules that can equally support horrendous actions or selfless humility. It has the potential to be a recipe book of pious judgementalism, hate, vengeance, wrath and murder. Or can be a guide to a quite spiritual path of "The Way" within and an aide to humanity.

reply to post by tamusan

I'm at the crossroads today. Do I continue on my quest, and ignore the religions of others? Or do I join those who are trying to down religion.

What will be the result if you try to down religion? Will it result in peace and love in the hearts of those with whom you speak? Will it cause anger, raised voices, hatred? What is your true motivation? (The last can be best answered in the privacy of your own heart.)

reply to post by windword


I agree. There are many kind and loving examples of our species who call themselves Christians. I've met many Muslims who are equally as kind and loving. Many Jews are as great examples of humanity. I don't place followers of Buddha above any other religion, just because I have chosen to follow.

I just have to reflect on what my eyes have opened up to. I have always accepted that Jesus was not an advocate of violence. I'll read the Bible a few more times, but I am uncomfortable about being so judgemental. I used to accuse Christians of being so judgemental. I hate to have a double standard.

reply to post by charles1952

What will be the result if you try to down religion? Will it result in peace and love in the hearts of those with whom you speak? Will it cause anger, raised voices, hatred? What is your true motivation? (The last can be best answered in the privacy of your own heart.)

The answer to your question has been clear in my heart from the moment I chose to participate in this thread. Nearly every post I've made in our discussion references what I wish to be gone from this world. I accept any belief that does not advocate harm to another human being.

This issue goes much deeper than contemplating Christianity for me. It has infested many things I have made a stand for in the past. The oath I took to defend the Constitution of the United States is suddenly at the forefront. I can't allow anyone to freely harm someone based on nonsense. It's amazing how dangerous it is to our masters when we actually think about something long enough to really understand it. I am not withdrawing my support for wars that seek to dismantle oppression, but I am putting everything I believe to question.

I'm out of here for awhile. I've enjoyed the discussion. Thank you for making me take the time to stop and think about my beliefs. I think we are supposed to constantly do that. I'm hiking up the mountain for some quiet meditation. If I reach another conclusion, I might stop here to share it.

reply to post by tamusan

Dear tamusan,

This won't be very clear, forgive me, it's not clear in my own mind. And they are just stray thoughts from one person.

May I suggest you de-emphasize the Bible for a little while. Many Christians will say that they have a "relationship" with God. Perhaps if you looked at the stories of people who were solidly Christian it might be more meaningful at the moment.

You can probably find your own, but C.S. Lewis comes to mind. He started off as an Atheist and "evolved" over time into a powerful Christian writer. (I like his "Perelandra" trilogy. It's mystical science fiction) G.K. Chesterton was known as "The Apostle of Common Sense." (Just for enjoyment you might want to read some of his "Father Brown" detective stories.)

Maybe a biography or two. I'm sure you'd resonate with Mother Theresa.

Anyway, do as your heart moves you, but let an informed mind and conscience help steer.

With respect,
Charles1952