Blame the shooter, not the gun

Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by lambs to lions

 

Yes, but Switzerland and the US are completely different.

Switzerland has almost no poverty. Switzerland has a very homogeneous population. And Switzerland has half as many guns, per capita.

America can never be as wealthy, per capita, as Switzerland, or as homogeneous. I'd happily take you up on takng away half of America's guns though, to make it like Switzerland...

However, that actually lends credence to the point that it is factors other than gun ownership that leads to violence. In contrasting the US and Switzerland like that, you actually support the idea that gun ownership is not a causal factor in violent acts.

reply to post by longlostbrother


Less than 100,000 people are intentionally shot for violent reasons every year. In fact that number is more than 10% too high. According to the CDC in 2009 there were 30,561 violence related deaths and 59,344 firearms related non fatal injuries that were of violent intent in 2010. (The most recent years with figures available from the CDC web site.) That includes self defense shootings. So, with both numbers you are looking at roughly 89,905 intentional violent shootings per year. That includes self defense shootings, shootings by police, and other non criminal shootings.

Out of the 30,561 intentionally violent deaths by firearm only 11,493 were deemed murder in 2009. Suicide counted for 18,735 of those deaths. The remaining were listed as police intervention. It sounds to me like improved mental health care would do more to limit gun deaths than any law. Over 60% more people are killed by suicide with gun than by murder. So, to address the real problem maybe we should look at the root causes of mental illness that would lead to such decisions.

For non fatal injuries gunshots aren't even in the top ten. If you look strictly at violent non fatal injuries it is number eight. Again it is behind intentional harm to self. There are three forms of intentional forms of harm to self that rank much higher in yearly injury. Over 266,000 people a year intentionally poison their self. Again it looks like the key to preventing violent injury is increased mental health care.

It is much easier to blame a gun than to look at society and to look at the individual and ask, are we destroying are ourselves? Are we ignoring the most vulnerable in our society? Are we reaching out with love and care to lift up others? Instead we seek to limit the freedoms of 90 million Americans to make a minority of Americans feel warm and fuzzy.
CDC WISQARS
CDC Non Fatal Injuries

Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by conspiracyrus

 

I fully understand all of that.

What you seem to blithely ignore is 100,000 people shot every year, in America. And how the high gun ownership rate has not in any way lowered the crime rate, relative to other countries... in fact America's crime rate is much worse than many countries that ban guns...

So if it hurts 800,000 a decade and doesn't make the crime rate competitive... what the hell is the point?

Do you REALLY not think 100,000 people shot a year is bad? Can America not do as well as Canada??

ANd yet the murder rate in the UK has risen, even after almost total gun bans. If gun bans reduced murder and violent crime, should not the rate there been going down every year instead of increasing?

www.guardian.co.uk...

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by lambs to lions

 

Yes, but Switzerland and the US are completely different.

Switzerland has almost no poverty. Switzerland has a very homogeneous population. And Switzerland has half as many guns, per capita.

America can never be as wealthy, per capita, as Switzerland, or as homogeneous. I'd happily take you up on takng away half of America's guns though, to make it like Switzerland...

However, that actually lends credence to the point that it is factors other than gun ownership that leads to violence. In contrasting the US and Switzerland like that, you actually support the idea that gun ownership is not a causal factor in violent acts.

No, and this is where you lose the logic thread.

What that shows is that SOME countries can be trusted with large numbers of guns. Others can NOT.

Take away the guns in America and guess what, the number of gun crimes goes down.

As I keep saying, America as a society would not pass the background check necessary to get a gun.

Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by conspiracyrus

 

No.

100,000 people are shot in America every year. Anything that protects that status quo is obviously idiotic.

The US crime rate is relatively high, it's gun fatality rate is shocking, it's non-fatal gun crime rate is dumbfounding and the number of these mass shootings is increasing, not going down...

but sure, sure... no need to change anything...

What would you change? And what do you propose?

Look, ANYONE can obtain practically ANYTHING if they want to. There are always ways around stupid laws, sanctions, waiting periods, registration issues.

Lets just pretend the gun had never been invented. Say you wanted to do harm to a large group of people in an enclosed area. Any teenager with basic chemistry knowledge can figure out how to go grocery shopping, combine the right household cleaning agents, and simply let the fumes take out whoever happens to come near.

Most people who dislike guns have never learned how to use one. Thus, are making a biased decision on a topic you have no knowledge of. Guns aren't as easy to use as one might expect. It takes practice.

I guarantee you, I could do just as much damage to someone using a number 2 pencil as most on this site could with a firearm. Obviously not speaking to those who have served, or those who KNOW their guns.

Originally posted by longlostbrother

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by lambs to lions

 

Yes, but Switzerland and the US are completely different.

Switzerland has almost no poverty. Switzerland has a very homogeneous population. And Switzerland has half as many guns, per capita.

America can never be as wealthy, per capita, as Switzerland, or as homogeneous. I'd happily take you up on takng away half of America's guns though, to make it like Switzerland...

However, that actually lends credence to the point that it is factors other than gun ownership that leads to violence. In contrasting the US and Switzerland like that, you actually support the idea that gun ownership is not a causal factor in violent acts.

No, and this is where you lose the logic thread.

What that shows is that SOME countries can be trusted with large numbers of guns. Others can NOT.

Take away the guns in America and guess what, the number of gun crimes goes down.

As I keep saying, America as a society would not pass the background check necessary to get a gun.

No, it is perfectly logical in stance and evaluation. If the premise is that some countries can be "trusted" to have guns, then, logically, something other than guns is the causal element in the behavior one wishes to avoid.

You make the assertion that gun control in the US would cause "gun crime" to go down, but that does not logically follow. We have a "war on drugs" that does absolutely nothing to curb the use of drugs nor the violence that comes with it. The evidence actually demonstrates that criminals will still be able to get firearms even after a total banin the US just like criminals get heroin, coc aine, and methamphetamine even after a total ban on those substances. ALl one would achieve is disarming the people you don't have to worry about in the first place...the law abiding.

reply to post by longlostbrother


Whooa soap box much? Possibly some misdirected national fervor? You just stereotyped an entire nation. As a matter of Fact you just blatantly passed judgement on some 300,000,000 people. You cannot be serious when saying that. You sir should definitly not own a firearm.

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
reply to post by benzjie

 

Last night a man with basic chemistry knowledge and some over the counter chemicals leveled a building killing hundreds.

Your argument is entirely invalid

edit on 24-7-2012 by conspiracyrus because: (no reason given)

Exactly.

What do all these gun hating people want? Us to go back to the stone age where we sling rocks and hurl spears at one another? Because that doesnt sound bad at all?

I for one sleep comfortably at night knowing that everyone in my household is proficient with firearms. If someone attempts to do harm to any of us, its the difference between standing your ground and securing your safety versus running and cowering in the closet while you whisper to a 911 dispatcher and hope not to be found.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by conspiracyrus

 

I fully understand all of that.

What you seem to blithely ignore is 100,000 people shot every year, in America. And how the high gun ownership rate has not in any way lowered the crime rate, relative to other countries... in fact America's crime rate is much worse than many countries that ban guns...

So if it hurts 800,000 a decade and doesn't make the crime rate competitive... what the hell is the point?

Do you REALLY not think 100,000 people shot a year is bad? Can America not do as well as Canada??

ANd yet the murder rate in the UK has risen, even after almost total gun bans. If gun bans reduced murder and violent crime, should not the rate there been going down every year instead of increasing?

www.guardian.co.uk...

Sorry, but per capita the UK has a MUCH lower gun related crime rate.

It's a complex matrix of things, but part of the argument from the gun crowd is that guns make America safer. There's plenty of examples of places with strong gun control AND lower crime than America.

And there's plenty of places with a lot of guns and lower crime -- Though Switzerland only has about half as many guns per capita.

America is not able to own 88 guns per 100 people responsibly. It results in a huge amount of death and destruction. Close to 1,000,000 people shot in a decade, 500,000 stolen guns a year, thousands dead.... hundreds of accidental shootings... a huge prison population, tons of drugs and crime...

All the stats and figures show that America is an anomaly, in a bad way...

Either you accept that and try to fix it in a way that protects your freedoms, or you let it spiral out of control until someone else makes the decision for you.

America as a country can't have an escalating guns problem forever - at some point something WILL happen. IF you gun nuts try and be part of the solution then maybe you have more of a say in what eventually happens.

100K people+ a year being shot is an unsustainable amount.

reply to post by conspiracyrus


I didn't. America is a nation and a society. When referring to national figures you can't talk about individuals, laws affect everyone, more or less. I don't think everyone with a gun is dangerous, not at all, but the statistics speak for themselves.

Originally posted by AlonzoTyper

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
reply to post by benzjie

 

Last night a man with basic chemistry knowledge and some over the counter chemicals leveled a building killing hundreds.

Your argument is entirely invalid

edit on 24-7-2012 by conspiracyrus because: (no reason given)

Exactly.

What do all these gun hating people want? Us to go back to the stone age where we sling rocks and hurl spears at one another? Because that doesnt sound bad at all?

I for one sleep comfortably at night knowing that everyone in my household is proficient with firearms. If someone attempts to do harm to any of us, its the difference between standing your ground and securing your safety versus running and cowering in the closet while you whisper to a 911 dispatcher and hope not to be found.

Sorry, is London in the Stone Age?

Berlin?

Tokyo?

reply to post by AlonzoTyper


Look around the world at countries that don't have the same problems with guns. Learn what they do right.

You talking about the lives of 100,000 of your fellow citizens, every year, being affected, a lot of them dying, because the political climate around guns is toxic.

If the gun experts can't figure out how to reduce these horrible figures then eventually one of the people you are scared of will. And good people will suffer.

reply to post by longlostbrother

a huge prison population, tons of drugs and crime

Which has nothing to do with guns and everything to do with a prohibition of substances and mandatory minimums. Many Americans learned from the prohibition of alcohol. Unfortunately most of them did not. The prison population has been driven up by the incarceration of non violent drug offenders. The violence surrounding drugs comes from the fact that it is a multimillion dollar industry and illegal. If a guy is involved in selling drugs his idea of a hostile take over is killing his competitor and not buying him out. Addicts are forced in to lives of petty crime because rehab services or woeful and hard to find. Many are actually people in need of mental health services that are self medicating because they can't find help or don't know where to look for help.

You are mixing up two very different subjects and drawing conclusions that are not there.

America as a country can't have an escalating guns problem forever - at some point something WILL happen.

The problem with that notion is that overall murder is at a 20+ year low and violent crime continues to drop year after year. America is actually less violent now than in 1978 despite the increase in these incidents. What we should focus on is finding the reason these events are increasing. Is it economical, social, political, or is it something in the water and food supply? Theses events are slightly more common than they were. However, that goes against the trends for other violent crimes. The appropriate action is to ask why. It isn't to ban guns and put our head in the sand.

Originally posted by hellbjorn012
There have been so many shootings in America ive lost count and the government has not taken anyones guns away yet. Even after Columbine no ones guns were taken away. Now im all for owning guns as i have a few myself but some people are just nutty over them. The government is not gonna bust down your door and take your guns over this, so please stop being paranoid. Be thankful this is all you have to worry about and not burying your son or daughter like the family of those victims.

Guns are not gonna be taken away, now can we end this gun obsession here?

I swear to God i think some of you people worship them and would give up your first born before your .45

edit on 24-7-2012 by hellbjorn012 because: (no reason given)

So by your logic, you're saying that because there continues to be people who rape and sodomize we should just castrate every male, and remove the pleasurable components of a female?

Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by AlonzoTyper

 

Look around the world at countries that don't have the same problems with guns. Learn what they do right.

You talking about the lives of 100,000 of your fellow citizens, every year, being affected, a lot of them dying, because the political climate around guns is toxic.

If the gun experts can't figure out how to reduce these horrible figures then eventually one of the people you are scared of will. And good people will suffer.

What you're forgetting is that in this country we have literally thousands of street gangs, and in those neighborhoods shootings are a daily event.

Do you think those shootings occur because those gang members went down to their local sporting goods store and legally purchased and registered a firearm in their name?

reply to post by longlostbrother


If you read back on the last two pages all the points you just made have infact been refuted. Also who appointed you Arms secretary of the world? You seem to understand what per capita means but you keep using loaded statistics that have no bearing on the discussion.

Rough equation time

Pop of america 275ish million
Percent gun owners 50ish

So roughly 138 million gun owners
Number of gunshot victims (as per you, and not taking into account the circumstances in which wound was recieved) 100k

So of these 138 million 100 thousand have used their weapon to harm someone.

That means 1 out of every 1380 gun owners injures someone per year.

This figure is pretty rough... And does include every circumstance where someone was injured with a gun.

Now imagine we take away suicide, police shooting, self defence shootings. Oh wait a member did that not 5 posts up... Your argument is pretty lame

Furthermore, as another poster commented;

More people die in car accidents every year than by gun violence. More people die from cancer than from gun violence. More people die from prescription medications than from gun violence.

So, by your logic:

Vehicles should be outlawed.

Ciggerettes and tobacco should be outlawed.

Prescription medications should be outlawed.

Ok...have fun living in a nanny state. Thats what California has and continues to become and it is inefficient, unreasonable, and goes against everything this god forsaken country once stood for.

Originally posted by longlostbrother

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by conspiracyrus

 

I fully understand all of that.

What you seem to blithely ignore is 100,000 people shot every year, in America. And how the high gun ownership rate has not in any way lowered the crime rate, relative to other countries... in fact America's crime rate is much worse than many countries that ban guns...

So if it hurts 800,000 a decade and doesn't make the crime rate competitive... what the hell is the point?

Do you REALLY not think 100,000 people shot a year is bad? Can America not do as well as Canada??

ANd yet the murder rate in the UK has risen, even after almost total gun bans. If gun bans reduced murder and violent crime, should not the rate there been going down every year instead of increasing?

www.guardian.co.uk...

Sorry, but per capita the UK has a MUCH lower gun related crime rate.

It's a complex matrix of things, but part of the argument from the gun crowd is that guns make America safer. There's plenty of examples of places with strong gun control AND lower crime than America.

And there's plenty of places with a lot of guns and lower crime -- Though Switzerland only has about half as many guns per capita.

America is not able to own 88 guns per 100 people responsibly. It results in a huge amount of death and destruction. Close to 1,000,000 people shot in a decade, 500,000 stolen guns a year, thousands dead.... hundreds of accidental shootings... a huge prison population, tons of drugs and crime...

All the stats and figures show that America is an anomaly, in a bad way...

Either you accept that and try to fix it in a way that protects your freedoms, or you let it spiral out of control until someone else makes the decision for you.

America as a country can't have an escalating guns problem forever - at some point something WILL happen. IF you gun nuts try and be part of the solution then maybe you have more of a say in what eventually happens.

100K people+ a year being shot is an unsustainable amount.

But that's where you are being disingenuous. When you speak of "gun crime" as if a murder or rape with a knife is somehow acceptable as long as a gun is not involved, you skew the data. The overal rate of murder in the UK and the US are on par, thus demonstrating that, logically, if you could magically remove all guns from everyone instantly, violence will still not go down. In addition, gun crime in the UK still has climbed in spite of bans, so that also logically demonstrates that gun bans do not reduce gun crime anyway. Unless one addresses the causal factors of violence, then one will never reduce violence no matter how many bans of tools one does.

reply to post by DarkKnight21


I could not agree with you more. Disarming people is not the answer, for then you would be defenseless. Ive been thinking about getting my CCW and I think now I will make it one of my top priorities. I would rather have it and never need it, then need it and not have it.

Taking away guns from law abiding people will not stop the criminals or freaks of this world from getting guns and doing crap like this. If only 1 person there had a weapon things could have turned out way different, maybe not, but there would have been a chance. What if 2 people there were armed...the odds just went up, etc. However I am also not blind to the fact that if you had 2 or more people armed there it would have added to the chaos.

There is no perfect solution...but I do know that taking the ability of law abiding folks to protect themselves is not the correct answer. I say if the politicians want the removal of guns let them be the first to lose theirs. Oh but thats not an option can't have the "People" armed and them not, well it goes both ways.

Thats just my opinion for what its worth.

-uninspired

reply to post by NavyDoc


???

Intentional murder rates are 3X higher in the US than the UK:
en.m.wikipedia.org...

The violent death rate in the US is SIX TIMES HIGHER than in the UK:
www.worldlifeexpectancy.com...