From a religion thread (Front page)

Many are taught that accepting Jesus Christ and accepting him into your life, you will be saved from hell. But, did Brother make this claim? The closest we can come to this is: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Could Jesus have meant, imitate me, be like me, and you can enter heaven? Do you really think people who lived their lives like Brother, but don't accept him as Savior will be sent to eternal damnation? You have other scriptures that talk about accepting Christ, but did Brother specifically say to do this or perish? Is it possible with having a direct relationship with God, or choosing your own way to God, but being good?

-Jhill76

I didn't feel right posting this at his thread, but I don't feel right sitting on it. So here it is:

I'm to believe the OP is christian? Then yes, Jesus is the only way.

Some other posters are making comments that might swing this thread into Islam. Then no, Jesus is not the only way. When you die, you're asked who is your prophet. If you say Jesus you're cool. But he's only a minor player.

I think pig-headed is the word I'd describe all those who praise religion, but have spent no time combining them. You're no longer living in seclusion, nor do I even believe you were back in ancient time. You know theres somebody right next to you who believes in the same thing, but doesn't eat pork or animal products.

Believing in that which you cannot see, nor have reason to believe aside from trying to fill a gaping hole in your life might be crazy to an extent. But now that you're aware other people have religion and you're not spending your time combining your beliefs is right out of the ballpark.

Because we all need war well into the 22nd century.

I keep wondering why ATS is turning into a Religious debate forum and exactly how far it will go down that road.

Seems that's all there is here some days and we have to wear our hip waders.

Peace

I follow buddha Sidharta Guatama, guess im goin to hell

reply to post by Kapkalna

I'm to believe the OP is christian? Then yes, Jesus is the only way.

I am not Christian, I am not affiliated with any of mans classification and their views on Father.

Originally posted by Kapkalna

Many are taught that accepting Jesus Christ and accepting him into your life, you will be saved from hell. But, did Brother make this claim? The closest we can come to this is: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Could Jesus have meant, imitate me, be like me, and you can enter heaven? Do you really think people who lived their lives like Brother, but don't accept him as Savior will be sent to eternal damnation? You have other scriptures that talk about accepting Christ, but did Brother specifically say to do this or perish? Is it possible with having a direct relationship with God, or choosing your own way to God, but being good?

-Jhill76

I didn't feel right posting this at his thread, but I don't feel right sitting on it. So here it is:

I'm to believe the OP is christian? Then yes, Jesus is the only way.

Some other posters are making comments that might swing this thread into Islam. Then no, Jesus is not the only way. When you die, you're asked who is your prophet. If you say Jesus you're cool. But he's only a minor player.

I think pig-headed is the word I'd describe all those who praise religion, but have spent no time combining them. You're no longer living in seclusion, nor do I even believe you were back in ancient time. You know theres somebody right next to you who believes in the same thing, but doesn't eat pork or animal products.

Believing in that which you cannot see, nor have reason to believe aside from trying to fill a gaping hole in your life might be crazy to an extent. But now that you're aware other people have religion and you're not spending your time combining your beliefs is right out of the ballpark.

Because we all need war well into the 22nd century.

War is a product of hate. Love is a product of faith in the divine meaning of love. Free will demands the possibility of one to have the other. Apart from the comparison, there is no other. God is allowing us to see the light from the darkness. We choose hate or love all by ourselves. Atheists, Christians, Muslims are of little meaning when seen by the light of their own fruit. Why attach a name to a face when the character is the thing to be judged? Hate cannot dispel hate. Only love can dispel hate. The mathematical truth of this cares little for what religion we name. Find the truth asking us to love others as you love yourself and you have found the source of it.

Blaming religion is prejudice. Not all religious people hate. Blame those who embrace hate and call it what it is.

reply to post by phroziac

Originally posted by phroziac
I follow buddha Sidharta Guatama, guess im goin to hell

All false religions are illuminati created...

"Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati to enslave and brainwash society. In essence, religion was the first form of mind control. The indoctrination of the masses by a "Trojan Horse" false religion has allowed the Illuminati to take control and work in secret for many, many years." Link

"The king of hell told me to look into the lake of fire. I looked and I saw the saffron colored robes that Buddhist monks wear in Myanmar. I looked closer and saw the shaven head of a man. When I looked at the man's face I saw it was U Zadila Kyar Ni Kan Sayadaw [the famous monk who had died in a car accident in 1983]. I asked the king of hell why my former leader was confined to this lake of torment. I said, "Why is he in this lake of fire? He was a very good teacher. He even had a teaching tape called 'Are You a Man or a Dog?' which had helped thousands of people understand that their worth as humans is far greater than the animals." The king of hell replied, "Yes, he was a good teacher but he did not believe in Jesus Christ. That's why he is in hell."

I was told to look at another person who was in the fire. I saw a man with very long hair wrapped on the left hand side of his head. He was also wearing a robe. I asked the king of hell, "Who is this man?" He replied, "This is the one you worship: Gautama [Buddha]." I was very disturbed to see Gautama in hell. I protested, "Gautama had good ethnics and good moral character, why is he suffering in this lake of fire?" The king of hell answered me, "It doesn't matter how good he was. He is in this place because he did not believe in the Eternal God."

Back from the Dead

"Today the religions of the world remain a major tool of the Illuminati agenda." Link

Satan's most effective method of seducing men and women to yield to his control over them is via a religious system. Source

"...religion keeps you from knowing God and keeps you blind as to what God is really like! All religious leaders are raised up by Jesus' arch enemy, satan! Link

Satan is behind ALL false religion
Religion is a major tool of the Illuminati agenda
Deception Through Religion
All false religions are illuminati created

reply to post by Kapkalna


Dear Kapkalna,

Don't sweat it. The bible said that once it had been spread throughout the world, the church would see a great falling away and that is what we are seeing. You cannot find one other religion that predicts that once it has been spread throughout the world, it would destroy itself and that prediction was made 2,000 years ago. Pretty cool and accurate. There is NO other religion that has been spread to every part of the world. None. This is a time for non-believers to rejoice, Christianity is dying and I am a Christian preacher. Enjoy the show, it is only to get dumber. Christianity is the only religion to predict it would be spread to all the world and then the church would be destroyed, removed. And it is the only one that got it right. ROFL. You are seeing both the proof and destruction at the same time.

reply to post by Murgatroid


More lies and propaganda huh?

"No one was able to give ANY form of authentication to the story. A number of leaders, including those who had been in Christian leadership in Mandalay, knew of no evidence to confirm any part of the story. Some of the Myanmar Christian leaders would very much like to know who the ‘several Burmese church leaders’are that AMO/Asia Harvest refers to as their sources for this story."

dhammaprotector.blogspot.ca...

And:

www.ccgm.org.au...

The story is completely bogus, full of mistakes and errors, has no proof whatsoever, and he contradicts himself constantly when interviewed (second link). There's also several versions of the story.

It's a fundie trap started by Asia Harvest - creating lies to cage more people.

Posting completely fraudulent stories as a way to push your agenda forward isn't cool.

reply to post by AdamsMurmur


What I really "like" (as in it makes me laugh) about the "Back from the Dead" link he posted is at the bottom of it it has a link that claims Buddha prophecied the coming of Jesus. So the propaganda story goes from proclaiming that Buddha was an inhabitant of hell, yet he was also somehow blessed by God to prophecy the coming of the Christ? Seems like someone was playing both sides of the fence when they invented this story.

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
reply to post by AdamsMurmur

 

What I really "like" (as in it makes me laugh) about the "Back from the Dead" link he posted is at the bottom of it it has a link that claims Buddha prophecied the coming of Jesus. So the propaganda story goes from proclaiming that Buddha was an inhabitant of hell, yet he was also somehow blessed by God to prophecy the coming of the Christ? Seems like someone was playing both sides of the fence when they invented this story.

I didn't notice that.

That could just be there version of the story, as there are several out there. Contradictions and hypocrisy like that should raise flags that the story is complete bull. I've personally read hundreds of NDEs, and I can smell the bull of fake ones like this. Interestingly enough, they are almost always from Christian fundamentalist websites.

:shk:

reply to post by AdamsMurmur


See, I personally, as of right now, don't believe in NDEs for a few reasons.

1) I know there are some pretty convincing natural explanations for them, although if I remember correctly these natural explanations have never been fully proven. Still they are pretty straightforward alternate theories.

2) As a Muslim I do not believe that God makes mistakes. Therefore I don't think He would have someone die, take them somewhere to show them something, and then just send them back. Now, maybe there are Muslims who have had "near death experiences" but I've personally never heard of any, except for one's on Christian fundamentalist sites that claim the Muslims had these NDEs and came back proclaiming Jesus as their savior

3) The Muslim view of the afterlife is very specific. Certain things happen. For one, no one goes to heaven or hell upon death. Heaven and hell aren't destinations until after the Day of Judgment. When you die you go to your grave and remain their until Judgment Day. For two, while in the grave angels visit you and ask you some specific questions. For three, while in the grave you experience a taste of where you are basically headed, heaven or hell, based upon the state of your soul when you died. Of course I believe this could change because on Judgment Day God will forgive many of our sins just because He is merciful.

So, for me, NDEs from an Islamic perspective would actually violate many of the revelations regarding what happens upon death. I haven't read, nor even looked up, if there are any Islamic rulings regarding NDEs so I don't know if there is the possibility that they fit in with the Islamic view of death or if they are considered a valid phenomenon in Islam.

Guess that will give me something to do tomorrow, insha'Allah.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

War is a product of hate.

War is a product of expansion. Your population is over crowded, time to run down the next village. They're crowded too? Better kill them. It also helps if you rape their women to create genetic diversity.

In the modern world, war is nothing more than personal profit. If you're talking about those civil wars in Africa, where they pick up machetes and hack each other up, its the result of drugs. Generally human beings arent able to do that sort of thing unless they're importing cheap narcotic. www.vice.com...

Love is a product of faith in the divine meaning of love.

That might be a part of it, but love has many more sides than self induced stockholm syndrome at the idea of an all powerful humanoid.en.wikipedia.org... When you first hear about god, you ask all the questions to defy him. You ask why are killers allowed to live? Why do bad things happen to good people? Time and time again, you're offered a response that eventually whittles down to the bare essentials: Because god has a plan for everybody. Well heck, if I can't escape him he must love me. Look at everything he's capable of. He could squash me like a bug!

Free will demands the possibility of one to have the other. Apart from the comparison, there is no other. God is allowing us to see the light from the darkness.

So god creates boundaries for you. He categorizes things for you, so you don't experience the world and truly question things for yourself. I think when god is older than 14, he'll understand that there is no answer to most things.

By the way, it doesn't bother you at all that light is good and dark is evil? You know there's light skinned and dark skinned people. en.wikipedia.org... Skin color didn't have a factor in ancient Egypt, Rome, Greece. In todays society, being of lighter skin means you make more money and are viewed as having more skill. www.jstor.org... If our homeboy jesus christ hadnt come along, we wouldnt have even known to judge people from skin pigmentation. What a disaster that would have been.

We choose hate or love all by ourselves. Atheists, Christians, Muslims are of little meaning when seen by the light of their own fruit. Why attach a name to a face when the character is the thing to be judged?

Judged to what end... that you form an opinion about something? You could just as easily form an opinion about watching the Housewives. Except in that case, you're not judging an actual person but a fictional character. We should probably all be setting up pre-determined notions about the people around us instead of finding who they are.

Hate cannot dispel hate. Only love can dispel hate.

The universal truth of money can do just as fine a job. You cant be a proud white supremacist when you can't hold a job because of your beliefs. Eventually you have to bite your lip, hope your friends arent watching, and hope that black employer finally takes you.

The mathematical truth of this cares little for what religion we name. Find the truth asking us to love others as you love yourself and you have found the source of it. Blaming religion is prejudice.

This is very difficult to push through. You make conclusions without any sort of thought process behind them. Then you immediately rush to the next conclusion.

I don't see any possible way I can get anything out of "The mathematical truth of this cares little for what religion we name". Find the truth asking us to love others... love yourself... find the source of it. It sounds like you're asking the person to have some intimate alone time, for lack of a better term. If I don't want to blindly believe all this, I can go blank myself. Blaming religion is a prejudice. So you know how prejudice religion is, hence you cover your tracks by saying the opposite is true.

Not all religious people hate. Blame those who embrace hate and call it what it is.

Blame those who admit to their behavior, but not those who are still in denial. Wise words to be sure. It would save a lot of time.

reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786


I do not want to do this in this thread, but I must ask.

As a Muslim I do not believe that God makes mistakes. Therefore I don't think He would have someone die, take them somewhere to show them something, and then just send them back.

But, how can this be concluded that Father has made a mistake? Could he not do this, just to teach?

reply to post by jhill76


Possibly, but again, as far as I know from Islamic teachings there is nothing to indicate that God does anything like this. Like I said I'll do some research into it, but on the surface it appears that NDEs would contradict what happens when one dies.

reply to post by jhill76

I do not want to do this in this thread, but I must ask.

Do what you want in this thread.

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
reply to post by AdamsMurmur

 

See, I personally, as of right now, don't believe in NDEs for a few reasons.

1) I know there are some pretty convincing natural explanations for them, although if I remember correctly these natural explanations have never been fully proven. Still they are pretty straightforward alternate theories.

2) As a Muslim I do not believe that God makes mistakes. Therefore I don't think He would have someone die, take them somewhere to show them something, and then just send them back. Now, maybe there are Muslims who have had "near death experiences" but I've personally never heard of any, except for one's on Christian fundamentalist sites that claim the Muslims had these NDEs and came back proclaiming Jesus as their savior

3) The Muslim view of the afterlife is very specific. Certain things happen. For one, no one goes to heaven or hell upon death. Heaven and hell aren't destinations until after the Day of Judgment. When you die you go to your grave and remain their until Judgment Day. For two, while in the grave angels visit you and ask you some specific questions. For three, while in the grave you experience a taste of where you are basically headed, heaven or hell, based upon the state of your soul when you died. Of course I believe this could change because on Judgment Day God will forgive many of our sins just because He is merciful.

So, for me, NDEs from an Islamic perspective would actually violate many of the revelations regarding what happens upon death. I haven't read, nor even looked up, if there are any Islamic rulings regarding NDEs so I don't know if there is the possibility that they fit in with the Islamic view of death or if they are considered a valid phenomenon in Islam.

Guess that will give me something to do tomorrow, insha'Allah.

First of all, I do recall reading some Islamic NDEs, from non-biased sites (www.near-death.com, www.nderf.org) as well in a book I read. And no, none of them came back proclaiming such things. If anything, they might have become more tolerant of other religions, if anything. I can't remember tbh, but try looking through the second link I gave you. It's probably the best place to read NDEs (although the second one is easier to navigate), and they're screened. Low chance of something bs coming through there, and they ask for a lot of info by people who post their NDEs.

Secondly, I really don't see how you can see it as a mistake. A lot of people that go through these things find it to be an incredible gift. And you know, in a lot of them, almost most of them, the one going through the NDE is given a choice: do you wish to return, or do you wish to stay here? But what makes people come back here is their families and other loved ones.

Also you're right: there's no proof that they're bogus hallucinations and so on. In fact, it's often said that the experience is far more real than this life we're in right now. The feelings, the emotion, the colours, the sounds, they're all out of this world. That's how they express it.

I also recall an NDE where the person saw people that were "sleeping," basically, those are the ones who strongly believed in something like your third point.

And about hell, this is a pretty simplified read:

Why do some people have NDEs that resembles the fire and brimstone hell of the Bible while other people describe a different kind of hell? The quick answer is that there are many kinds of hells and many kinds of heavens. A person's situation in life and after death is based upon many factors including: perception, perspective, cultural and religious background, spirituality or lack thereof, and education. If you examine enough hellish NDEs that resemble the traditional hellfire and brimstone, you will notice that they mostly occur to fundamentalist Christians. Life after death often means "getting what you expect", that is, if you believe heaven is a place where you float on a cloud and play a harp, you just might get that when you die. And only when you realize that this kind of heaven is a fanatasy-to-be-abandoned will you find reality different. In other words, reality is what you make it. This applies on Earth as it is in heaven. If we believe that such a hell exists, it actually does exist - in our own minds. And since the afterlife is the realm of the mind and spirit, these hellish conditions actually exist merely by creating them in our own mind. This is why it is critical that we be careful what we put in our minds and what we build there.

I hope you find yourself some good info.

Cheers!

en.wikipedia.org...

Women would adapt bonding feelings towards their captors to avoid being killed. When these abductions by other tribes were common, a species adapts captor bonding as a universal trait.

Humans stopped running around stealing women to rape, WHAM! Religion. We can't get rid of this captor bonding trait, so we might as well find a way to deal with it. Lets say theres a father figure. He can punish who he wants, he can kill who he wants, but he simply chooses not to do it. But when bad things do happen, it will all be attributed to him. Any questions? Great. Lets write a bible or something.

reply to post by Kapkalna

I don't see any possible way I can get anything out of "The mathematical truth of this cares little for what religion we name". Find the truth asking us to love others... love yourself... find the source of it. It sounds like you're asking the person to have some intimate alone time, for lack of a better term. If I don't want to blindly believe all this, I can go blank myself. Blaming religion is a prejudice. So you know how prejudice religion is, hence you cover your tracks by saying the opposite is true.

All of what you are saying misses the larger picture of what it means to overcome. You are focusing on your own person interests and what might be rather than what is. Look at the larger picture and see that we have an opportunity from the suffering. There is a goal and many things that are not understood by us clearly. The key to this is understanding that suffering is the point.

If you smoke, you get cancer. This is because you took a reward that was not earned and it caused a debt of suffering. If you work at a job, you have flipped this. You are suffering first and reward follows. What is common to both of these examples? Suffering. We either suffer as a result of taking (Thief) or we give forward by suffering work first. This leads to reward. Why did Jesus suffer for us with every step? Like I said, it's mathematics.

In mathematics, if you owe three people $10, then you are negative $30 (3 X -10 = $-30). If the lenders then say, "We forgive you for this debt because we love you," then you are free from that debt by another negative. You have just had three subtractions of -10, making you three positives of $10 (-3 X -$10). Your debt is -30 + 30 = Zero. Jesus died a horrible death to pay our debt, walking us back to a positive value. Two negatives multiplied make a positive. Apart from Jesus, we are only able to add and subtract debt. With God, we are able to multiply. Debt is forgiven.

You might make the case that one life is too short to get the truth of what God is saying to us. You might make the case for equality, that some have much and some have little. You might make the case that some die young and some live to old age. What did Jesus say about this? He said, "you must be born again." Such a simple truth, yet we miss it entirely. I can't expound on it here, but in my signature link, there is an article on water and spirit baptism. Water baptism is the symbol for our immersion into the water of life. We are shown, in each life, what we need to be shown for that experience. Knowing this, divine justice now makes more sense. Live by the sword and you will die by the sword. We reap what we sow from life to life and grow by the experience.

If you understand that there is a baptism by water, then extend this by the other baptisms that are mentioned in scripture. In Matthew 3 alone, there are three. Water, Fire and Spirit. What's left? Earth and Air.

Confucius said, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand."

Earth - We are planted into the Garden. We are not rooted in the soil like plants or in a fixed domain like fish. Instead, we can occupy all domains. This autonomy requires that we overcome these domains by hardships. The wilderness we occupy was provided to allow our growth by experience.

Air - We are given the Word of God as a guide to the wilderness. This word is also the language we learn and master. Meaning ultimately comes when we decipher the inner symbols of nature and overcome our ignorance and pride of the outer world. Meaning springs from the root, just like a plant.

Water - We are baptized into the Water (Immersion into Reality). The water cleanses the temple (body). The temple is where the sacrifice is made. This temple houses the spirit of God, along with our soul. We are to overcome as we are born again. "You must be born again." Plants die and the seed perpetuates to the next generation. Producing fruit ensures seed for the next crop.

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.


Fire - We are finally baptized by Trials. The Flaming Sword of God cuts away pride and protects the tree of life. The tree of life is DNA. We light the fire we burn by. We can also put out the fire with the water.

Spirit - After overcoming the first four baptisms, we are then baptized by the Spirit of God when we find love. We then possess a Holy Spirit of our own from the experiences and trials in the refiner's fire of the wilderness.

Yes, suffering is the point. You have the ability to direct the suffering forward for reward that extends to everyone around you. This is love.

Originally posted by jude11
I keep wondering why ATS is turning into a Religious debate forum and exactly how far it will go down that road.

Seems that's all there is here some days and we have to wear our hip waders.

Peace

I think it boils down to this: The Membership of ATS have placed on the table for full examination many different and diversified topics over the years. Many conspiracies have been cleared up, and a host of new information on some has surfaced.

Now it is time to place the established faith based religions on the table for a full examination and dissection. Lets us look hard at their book, their faith, and their religion in general, and see what makes it tick, if anything. Let us see the origins of the things they hold dear to heart. Let is see the truth of everything about them. After all, Christianity has been attempting to run America for years, and once even tried to carve out a land for themselves within America.

I ask you, what is wrong with this effort? Are Christians so insecure and so scared they will be proven wrong that they do not want to be investigated? Do they now want to know the origins of their Gods and Devils, and their book?

reply to post by EnochWasRight


You begin your post through throwing discredit at my respectful post to yours, then make sure to post to the maximum so nobody is able to quote you. You even throw in some sort of copy and paste poem just to make my job more difficult of forcing you into a civil discussion.
I gain my strength internally. You gain your strength from trying to inflict fear of the unknown. The stakes are I stop using my brain and you get me angry, you win. You stop bombarding me with scripture and disregard, you win.

I have to do this half in notepad and half in the browser because of the challenge of word count you've put forth, so lets see how it goes.

You are focusing on your own person interests and what might be rather than what is.

Yes. I don't see myself as any sort of unique snowflake, of having any sort of alien or god guidance, so I see the own personal interests of every human being. That of understanding, tolerance and not pretending in an afterworld when we can't even remember a beforeworld.

Look at the larger picture and see that we have an opportunity from the suffering.

I don't know to which suffering you're referring, but I'd rather not profit from somebody elses misfortune. I'm still young and have much opportunity ahead of me, as I'm sure you do as well. I might find opportunity in other peoples suffering when I'm at my deathbed and have wasted my life away not making any money to leave my children and their children.

There is a goal and many things that are not understood by us clearly.

Kind of a disjointed thing to say, that plus jumping into another sort of conclusion without even explaining your previous idea.

The key to this is understanding that suffering is the point.

You're making my job easier than it has to be. You shouldnt already be accepting that you suffer under your idea of invisible entities.

If you smoke, you get cancer.

You might raise the likelihood, if thats what youre saying.

This is because you took a reward that was not earned and it caused a debt of suffering.

Smoking may cause cancer because of the chemicals included in the cigarette. www.ehow.com...

If you work at a job, you have flipped this.

No, your work performance will not affect your rate of cancer.

You are suffering first and reward follows.

I'm not suffering anything thank you very much!

Let me try to tie this to your last two sentences. The person suffers because... no wait, I think you reversed it. You might be trying to say reward first then suffering.

What is common to both of these examples? Suffering. We either suffer as a result of taking (Thief) or we give forward by suffering work first.

I'll get through this. Hold on.

We suffer from criminal acts of stealing, or work is suffering. I can't say I agree. I don't agree with anybody suffering from crime. Crime can occur and nobody has to suffer. Not physical or emotional pain. Nor are criminals always brought to justice.

Work is life. We can get into this right now, or at a later discussion. I see work as life. When you're not working, a persons skillset becomes soft. A person is born to work. I don't believe in the idea of retirement.

This leads to reward. Why did Jesus suffer for us with every step? Like I said, it's mathematics.

This is a bit delusional, if you're okay with me saying so. You say jesus suffered for us, the concept with which I'm familiar. Then you say your religious belief is somehow tied to mathematics.

I don't understand how you'll claim the science of math lends your personal beliefs validity. I think you say it so the person you're talking with becomes confused and doesn't question your words.

Unfortunately, you're not running away anywhere this time.