On Lies of Aztec Human Sacrifice

I find this easy to believe, the conquerers of north america spread disgusting lies about my people as well. How we were savages and such, scalped people, ate people, all kinds of nonesense. Isn't that what they always do? Makes it easier to hate people when you dehumanize them. Even our conquering armies now dehumanize the enemies.

I want to clarify one thing. I just realized that my previous post about my Hitler loving grandfather had a reference to Sephardic Jews and conquistadores...........Oh, let me explain.....

DOOOH

When Dallasite David Sifuentes Jimenez, 40, signed up to take a class at the Jewish Community Center about the medieval Spanish-based language, Ladino, he thought he was merely adding to his storehouse of knowledge of linguistics, his hobby. He had no idea the class would lead him on a voyage of self-discovery.

Jimenez grew up in a middle-class family in Harlingen. His father's family was from San Luis Potosi, northern Mexico, and his parents' marriage had been arranged. He was sent to parochial Roman Catholic schools and was raised Roman Catholic. In college, he got a double masters in finance and accounting and today works as a manager in business services at Parkland Hospital.

Through an incredible series of coincidences, which some might see as no less than the hand of God at work, Jimenez learned a year ago that his family heritage is not what he believed it to be, that it had been kept a secret from him. Not only that, he also found out that hundreds of others in the U.S. and northern Mexico have the same secret: that their family was actually descended from the Jews of fifteenth-century Spain, and that their lineage has been preserved for over 500 years, to present times.

Every schoolchild knows that Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand of Spain sent Christopher Columbus on his history-making voyage in 1492 to the New World. What is not in most textbooks, however, is that a few months earlier, the same Spanish monarchs—fresh from driving the Islamic Moors out of Spain-- issued a notorious "Edict of Expulsion," which required all of the estimated two-million Jewish citizens to either convert to Catholicism, under penalty of death, or leave Spain within 30 days with only the possessions they could carry on their backs.

An estimated half went into exile to friendlier countries in Europe, north Africa, or the Ottoman Empire (today's Turkey), whose sultan welcomed the banished creme de la creme of Spanish society-- merchants, physicians, educators. Others stayed behind and either converted or pretended to convert, while continuing to practice Judaism secretly.

These "Marranos" (literally "pigs") or "conversos" or "crypto-Jews" came under intense scrutiny by the Inquisition. Many later fled to "Nueva España," the Spanish territories in the New World, sometimes accompanying to northern and central Mexico the conquistadors, some of whom were Crypto-Jews themselves. One of the greatest, Luis Carvajál, admiral in the Spanish navy, founded Nuevo León, including the cities of Tampico and Monterrey.

His land grant extended from Tampico west to the Pacific and north to present-day San Antonio. He was later accused of harboring "Judaizers" and died in an Inquisition prison. Other family members were burned at the stake. When the long arm of the Inquisition established itself in Mexico City, some even fled with Don Juan de Oñate in 1598 and established the first colony in what is today New Mexico.

No matter in which part of the world they ended up, these Spaniards in-exile fiercely clung to their dual Jewish and Spanish heritages, whether openly or in secret. They maintained their Jewish customs and traditions to modern times, and even their Spanish language, which became known as "Ladino."

www.cryptojews.com...

EDIT:
It was agreed by the church and the royalty to send them to be stained and so in some weird way for themselves to still stay in favor with God. It was known who was and who wasn't Jewish within elite circles. They just got extorted and used more often.

Jews had it tough in Spain at that time. The promise of making it some where that the Spanish crown cant reach but where all your wealth is transferable into assets anywhere in the empire was VERY appealing.

They were under yet another phase of persecution. Starting from scratch. Some losing many generations of work and building.

It is still unknown who is and who isn't Jewish genetically in Spain anymore. The Jewish ancestry here in Spain was genetically traceable to Semitic people´s. Not eastern European Jewish ancestry.

They just kind of blended in as soon as they lost practice of their customs. I could be Jewish. We don't know.

reply to post by kyviecaldges


Listen my friend, I don't make assumptions without educating myself on the subject beforehand. About 10 years ago, I made one of my pleasures spending free time studying the ancients of the Americas. I have visited many historical sites in Northern and central Mexico, as well as various locations in the Mayan Riviera. While my focus was primarily on The Mayans, I have studied and visited many Aztec locations as well.

Look, I have seen carvings and paintings with my own eyes that depict sacrifice. Could they have been carved or painted by a manipulated traitor? Sure, anything is possible. I am just telling you how I formed my own opinion on this and to be quite honest, that doesn't even mean I am 100% convinced of my own assumptions. It's just that I am leaning more towards believing that they did in fact sacrifice people, and losers to certain games just as well.

With that being said, I appreciate your well written response and we will just have to agree to disagree. However, I am keeping an open mind about this subject being that at one time in my life I was convinced that accusations of sacrifice were nothing short of fiction created by the Church. ~$heopleNation

I agree, starred and flagged. I'm not saying that they may not have conducted sacrifice, why I starred and flagged it is that, the only proof they did, is Latin documents. Latin accounts.

Now there is something that needs to be researched, ie. ancient carvings and pictures of sacrifice, which is not just Aztec, or Mayan related, but more tribal related.

Even if there are ancient carvings, which I'd like to see, and their carbon dating. One has to bear in mind that throughout the middle east/holy land and the rest of the world, there also were tales of groups doing human sacrifice.

This did not mean that the Hebrew faith allowed human sacrifice.

Also lets say a carving exits that is carbon dated at 3000 years, when it could actually be quite a bit more even,say 12 000. Look at the Bosnian pyramid and the carbon dating done within for example.

If you have a very ancient carving, what is depicted at that point does not mean the people are still living in those ways. People evolve. Cultures evolve. Children grow up! That would be equivalent to saying we're sacrificing people on altars (I don't mean the criminal ones) legally and years later scholars find some evidence in European or mixed heritage sites that suggest we did in the past, so we must now be doing it too.

It means no such thing.

Like I said, this isn't saying they didn't its saying, I don't know if they did, but don't think taking the word of the conquerers is the right thing to do.

And the accounts given in the thread about the soldiers saying they conned them, and taught them vices and depopulated them.

I'd like to read those.

reply to post by SLAYER69


This too could be the truth. I've been starring good points on both sides, which is very odd for me in a thread. Because, I don't know, the evidence is based mostly on the word of the conquerors. I'd have to spend time on more ancient accounts from various groups related to and neighboring the Aztec's, and weigh it up, and even then acknowledge that all I've done is make a list of what I feel are possiblities and probabilties, and my opinion is just one of the probabilities but that does not make it true.

reply to post by Unity_99


here is one site that lists the official sources historians base their interpretation on. It also goes into detail about what the Aztecs say happened. This is the intro.

On November 8, 1519, the Spanish conquistadors first entered the great city of Mexico, the metropolis the Aztecs had built on a lake island. Don Hernando Cortes, who was accompanied by six hundred Spaniards and a great many native allies, at last could see for himself the temples and palaces about which he had heard so many marvels. The Spaniards arrived from the direction of Tlalpan, to the south of the city, passing across one of the wide causeways that connected the island with the mainland.

When they reached a locality known as Xoloco, they were welcomed by the last of the Motecuhzomas, who had come out to meet them in the belief that the white men must be Quetzalcoatll and other gods, returning at last from across the waters now known as the Gulf of Mexico. Thus Cortes and his men entered the city, not only as guests, but also as gods coming home. It was the first direct encounter between one of the most extraordinary pre-Columbian cultures and the strangers who would eventually destroy it.

Cortes landed on the coast at Veracruz on Good Friday, April 22, 1519; the Aztec capital surrendered to him on August 13, 1521. The events that took place between these two dates have been recounted in a number of chronicles and other writings, of which the best known are the letters Cortes wrote to King Charles V and the True History of the Conquest of Mexico by Bernal Diaz del Castillo. These two works, along with a few others also written by Spaniards, until now have been almost the only basis on which historians have judged the conquest of one of the greatest civilizations in pre-Columbian America.

But these chronicles present only one side of the story, that of the conquerors. For some reason-scorn, perhaps-historians have failed to consider that the conquered might have set down their own version in their own language.

This book is the first to offer a selection from those indigenous accounts, some of them written as early as 1528, only seven years after the fall of the city. These writings make up a brief history of the Conquest as told by the victims, and include passages written by native priests and wise men who managed to survive the persecution and death that attended the final struggle. The manuscripts from which we have drawn are now preserved in a number of different libraries, of which the most important are the National Library in Paris, the Laurenziana Library in Florence and the library of the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City.

ambergriscaye.com...

soldier who was there

So we stood looking about us, or that huge and cursed temple stood so high that from it one could see over everything very well, and we saw the three causeways which led into Mexico, that is the causeway of Iztapalapa by which we had entered four days before, and that of Tacuba, and that of Tepeaquilla, and we saw the fresh water that comes from Chapultepec which supplies the city, and we saw the bridges on the three causeways which were built at certain distances apart through which the water of the lake flowed in and out from one side to the other,

and we beheld on that great lake a great multitude of canoes, some coming with supplies of food and others returning loaded with cargoes or merchandise; and we saw that from every house of that great city and of all the other cities that were built in the water it was impossible to pass from house to house, except by drawbridges
which were made of wood or in canoes;

and we saw in those cities Cues [temples] and oratories like towers and fortresses and all gleaming white, and it was a wonderful thing to behold; then the houses with flat roofs, and on the causeways other small towers and oratories which were like fortresses.

After having examined and considered all that we had seen we turned to look at the great market place and the crowds of people that were in it, some buying and others selling, so that the murmur and hum of their voices and words that they used could be heard more than a league off.

Some of the soldiers among us who had been in many parts of the world, in Constantinople, and all over Italy, and in Rome, said that so large a market place and so full of people, and so well regulated and arranged, they had never beheld before.

Here is one possible explanation for all those decapitated heads.

what the Aztecs say happened one day.....

They ran in among the dancers, forcing their way to the place where the drums were played. They attacked the man who was drumming and cut off his arms. Then they cut off his head, and it rolled across the floor.

They attacked all the celebrants, stabbing them, spearing them, striking them with their swords. They attacked some of them from behind, and these fell instantly to the ground with their entrails hanging out. Others they beheaded: they cut off their heads, or split their heads to pieces.

They struck others in the shoulders, and their arms were torn from their bodies. They wounded some in the thigh and some in the calf. They slashed others in the abdomen, and their entrails all spilled to the ground. Some attempted to run away, but their intestines dragged as they ran; they seemed to tangle their feet in their own entrails. No matter how they tried to save themselves, they could find no escape.

reply to post by SLAYER69

The Spanish were known for being meticulous record keepers. What they recorded and described about Human sacrifice is accurate but their perception and understanding of the reasons behind why the Aztec carried out such activities were all skewed by an overly conservative Catholic point of view. This has apparently become a moral debate that is attempting to apply a modern set of morals to a people who did things their way for their reasons..

This is possible. ie. if you made a list of possibilities and then narrowed it down to probabilities (always bearing in mind that its just guesswork and that those long shots, or one a million are sometimes the answers) you could do a leap from: Spanish good record keepers, to Spanish kept accurate records here.

OR, you might mark that as first on your narrower list of probabilities, but mark 2. on your list as. Rome is conquering the world and calling shots and working out (kind of in a team with the other Sumar PTB set), the way they want things written and how they want it done, and the Spanish record keepers make the exception and are part of rewriting the truth because they really had no choice, they've seen the torture chambers and you know, didn't want to die painfully.

Again, not saying thats the case.

reply to post by SheopleNation

Look, I have seen carvings and paintings with my own eyes that depict sacrifice.

You saw pictures that appeared to convey either death or dismemberment or maybe it was the Aztec equivalent of a pulp magazine or penny dreadful.

You simply do not know.

By stating that you saw a sacrifice you are inferring meaning from a pictogram whose only reference for meaning comes from the same conquering nation that had an interest in portraying the Aztecs as savages practicing human sacrifice.
This is no different than the lie that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

This entire debate can be traced to education.
Schools no longer teach people how to use logic and reason to form individual conclusions based upon supporting evidence.
They do not strive for students to understand research maxims like-
-never speculate beyond the data
-correlation is not causation

We are now taught conclusions without addressing the validity of the supporting data.
We are now taught to, in fact, speculate beyond the data.
Entire branches of soft science are now based solely upon correlations.

This is much bigger than the Aztecs.
We are victims as well.

We have to bear in mind something about history. Its rewritten frequently in cycles. The PTB, annanuki splinter group left behind (I know some don't believe this but I do) conduct cycles. N W O stands for, the ending of one, and the emering of another serfdom like world, where they close down all the old knowledge, ie, persecute and kill, even whole villages, ie. Cathars for example and gnostics, and then rewrite the history.

This is how they conduct the affairs and cycles and why today, in 2012, with radiation everywhere but especially in the Northern Hemisphere, the middle class and free areas, and with Brotherhood, (google Banna and Nazi) winning over countries (perhaps with the CIA's help), and sending them back to the past, one should be a little alarmed.

Also bare in mind, that there is evidence, findings, of shared culture or advanced technology that suggests, to the observor, that there were many different times and cycles in which WORLD WIDE CIVILZATIONS EXISTED, and that the Amercia's were not isolated like we are taught.

reply to post by kyviecaldges


In regards to the comments about how to physically remove a heart. That was directed to another poster who figured that pulling a heart out of someone's chest is too difficult to do.

THats some serious body modification though if they are removing the heart.

But lets look at this from another perspective. What if those weren't sacrifices but aztec enemies getting executed to the aztecs gods. THe aztecs were aggressive conquerors of their region subjugating the other indigenous tribes. WOuldn't that still make the aztecs pretty psycho to constantly seek to kill off their neighbors and to do so in the most horrific ways. Vlad the Impaler did the same thing. Nobody thinks he was a great guy. So how does what the aztecs did any less crazy.

reply to post by Unity_99

This is possible. ie. if you made a list of possibilities and then narrowed it down to probabilities (always bearing in mind that its just guesswork and that those long shots, or one a million are sometimes the answers) you could do a leap from: Spanish good record keepers, to Spanish kept accurate records here.

Good catch!

That is actually a logical fallacy called a false syllogism.

Here is the best explanation of what the Spanish saw before contamination either of time or bias. The Aztecs did indeed practice sacrifice at the time of the Spanish arrival. Whether or not it was out of the ordinary we do not know. They simply state that victims willing and not were designated for sacrifice.

The population of Tenochtitlan at the time of the Conquest has been the subject of considerable controversy, but beyond question it must have amounted at least to a quarter of a million. The activities were many and colorful. Fiestas, sacrifices and other rituals were celebrated in honor of the gods.

Teachers and students met in the various calmecac and telpuchealli, the pre-Hispanic centers of education. The coming and going of merchant canoes and the constant bustle in the Tlatelolco market impressed the Spaniards so much that they compared the city to an enormous anthill. The military exercises and the arrival and departure of the warriors were other colorful spectacles. In brief, the life of Tenochtitlan was that of a true metropolis.

The city was visited by governors and ambassadors from distant regions. Gold, silver, rich feathers, cocoa, bark paper and other types of tribute, along with slaves and victims for the human sacrifices, streamed in along the streets and canals. The Spaniards were right: Tenochtitlan was indeed an anthill, in which each individual worked unceasingly to honor the gods and augment the grandeur of the city.

was it an ant hill or a stirred bee hive?

EDIT:

I would argue that what they describe is a fortification preparing for war and acting as the neurological center for an empire at war. Famine and disease were already part of those years for the Aztecs. They might have just gone through their world war and were still dealing with enemy troops. The natives that sided with the Spanish said they were attacked by the Aztecs.

Not that they always did, or that the Aztecs were known for that. What they actually said was that they were attacked by them. Thats what they told the Spanish. Thats why they helped.

Like if future people came to Europe during the WW. They would see concentration camps, mass graves, famine, depravity, etc. If they then conquered Germany with the help of England, then the English would get their version told about the Germans.

reply to post by BIHOTZ


THe soldiers account of the city of tenotchitlan (sp) is very cool. I remember that the spaniards called the city. The Venice of the new world due to all the waterways.

reply to post by BIHOTZ


I contend that calling it a sacrifice is coming to a false conclusion.

When every piece of evidence has been tainted by bias from individuals who benefit from a specific conclusion, I can not validate the historical account.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
reply to post by BIHOTZ

 

THe soldiers account of the city of tenotchitlan (sp) is very cool. I remember that the spaniards called the city. The Venice of the new world due to all the waterways.

So is the movie 300.

Have you ever seen it?

Big fat work of propaganda, it is.
Propaganda is designed to be entertaining.
That is why it is effective.

Yeah 300 was based on a comic book. I thought it was a cool movie but it did a massive disservice to the persian community. If you study the persian history during the time of their empire you discover that some of the persian kings were truly excellent men that ran their empire relatively benignly.

Also I have not seen Mel GIbsons movie about the mayans. I sorta lot my respect for Mel after he went off the deep end with the passion of christ movie. True the movie made him more money than all of his other films butI thought it was a movie in bad taste and an obvious agenda. So no I don't watch mels movies either.

reply to post by BIHOTZ


When rewriting history, one could preserve truth with distortions, so some is preserved. But I will ask you this, there is a Latin account and Latin codices left behind. And then there is supposedly, from the same time period, an Aztec account that was allowed to be preserved? By the PTB, cunning and usually conducting world wide webs? Or, would there be the distorted latin version, and the more authentic aztec version that none the less was tidied up so that you have a lie and then a partial truth?

If they're being thorough as they often are, what do you think?

That the aztec version was just naturally hidden and survived?

While I think that the aztec version is more authentic than the latin one, nonetheless, it doesnt prove that sacrifices took place as told.

Again, I don't know.

You have to bear in mind, the idea of the return of Quetzcoatl?

I have a theory on that one by the way.

So it is possible they did human sacrifice, based on that, a time when the feathered serpents, often white blond or red haired (and those mummies are found throughout the world including in South America, and including King Tut, whose DNA is causcasion and some of the pharoah's.

Now, this far more gnostic, sacrificial, and corrupt group, related to the annanuki/gods of old, and ets, but still human, we're all off planeters by the way, physically dna wise, including the animals, (yes cows are ETs too) and spirit. Anyway.

This implies the world wide civilization and the elohim/rulers the Egypt group and basically Sumar/Egypt/Israel and Rome are all connected, the people were waiting for the aryans/caucasions and basically PTB, to return again.

That group is very occult, tied into negatives and control base, and does do sacrifices.

I've read accounts of the Mayans I believe talking about the feathered serpents/reptilians taking over the priest group and requiring human sacrifice.

They feed off fear and pain, and serve the DARK SIDE.

That is my opinion of this, to show the links to mummies, and the ancient civilziations and old knowledge, and so much data, and things coded in their religious art, the archeological discoveries, in South America, the flight paths, the flying machines, the 3 pyramids in the pacific ocean that match GIZA. It would take far too long to post all the links, I'm cross referencing and connecting dots over years of research in my head. But the dots do connect.

reply to post by Unity_99


I think you are digging into rock there. There are many accounts that have been well known about for a long time.

You might be reading the lines in between the lines that are in between the lines that are them selves between lines. Too many lines.

I think they are what they are...both versions are what either party said. You need to look at the material form each point of view without filters.

The Spanish were scared, felt guilty, and were greedy. They had just went through 800 years of the same crap under the Muslim Moores.

Guilt, greed and fear do bad things to people. Not everyone in the world was on the same page as them. Some made sure that we can know that.


EDIT:
You are right though. IMO There is more to that.

reply to post by Unity_99


Kind of following your train of thought we have this. As soon as a society is dedicated to the sun by its leadership all history is erased and rewritten into a new darker form

Another important factor in the growth of Aztec power was the shrewd work of the royal counselor Tlacaelel, nephew to Itzcoatl who instituted a number of significant reforms in the tribe's political, religious, social and economic structure. As a profound student of the cultural elements inherited from the Toltecs, he made use of everything that served his purpose-but he also gave everything a special slant, for his purpose was to consolidate the strength and wealth of the city.

One of the indigenous texts in the Codice Matritense describes how Itzcoatl and Tlacaelel rewarded the principal Aztec chieftains with lands and titles after the victory over Azcapotzalco, and then says that the king and his adviser decided to give their people a new version of Aztec history.

The preserved an account of their history,
but later it was burned,
during the reign of Itzcoatl.
The lords of Mexico decreed it,
the lords of Mexico declared:
"It is not fitting that our people
should know these pictures.
Our people, our subjects, will be lost
and our land destroyed,
for these pictures are full of lies....

In the new version, recorded in a number of extant documents, the Aztecs claim to be descended from the Toltec nobility, and their gods- Huitzilopochtli in particular-are raised to the same level as the ancient creative gods Tezcadipoca, and Quetzalcoatl.

But most important of all is the exalted praise given to what can only be called a mystical conception of warfare, dedicating the Aztec people, the "people of the sun," to the conquest of all other nations. In part the motive was simply to extend the rule of Tenochtitlan, but the major purpose was to capture victims for sacrifice, because the source of all life, the sun, would die unless it were fed with human blood.

all evil is a corruption of good.

Their society was dedicated to the sun and underwent an apocalypse.......sound familiar?