Arpaio Obama probe finds 'national security threat'

Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

There's no credible evidence at all.

Show us what you think is credible and I'll show you where it's already been, probably for months, debunked.

Lot's of people keep claiming there's evidence, but none of them can point to any that hasn't been debunked.

Ok.. When this birth certificate / non Us citizen charge came about, please explain where the Clinton campaign got their information and why they used it?

Why are there so many discrepancies about Obama and books about him that supposedly had his cooperation on those books.

Was the government of Kenya making things up when they stated he was a citizen of their country?

Why are the INS records missing for the week Obama supposedly flew into Hawaii with his mother? The only missing information for the entire decade so far.

Why are there so many discprepencies with his birth form that cannot be explained away?

Why is his SSN number not from Hawaii?

Why does his Selective Service card contain incorrect format / date format on it?

Why does his BC number inconsisistent with others issued that day?

Why did the Obama Campaign origionally give his birth in Hawaii as one Hospital, only to change it to another?

Why are there different layers on the released version of the BC if it was only a scanned copy?

The person who signed off on Obamas BC, who was not interviewed by the Inbvestigators who were allowed to listen to an interview she gave for the guy writing a book, is stating there are problems - why?

Why did the assistant AG for Hawaii refuse to akcnowledge on the record that the information contained in the form they released was the same that was given to the state of Arizona?

Please clear up for us the citizenship issues during his time in Indonesia and what nationality he was when he received financial aid.

Why is he refusing to release his college transcripts?
Why doesnt anyone ever remeber working / being roomates / hanging out with Obama at college?

Why are people required to show a drivers license to gain admittance to an event with him when he refuses to provide his own documentation?

How does a person go from local state politics to President of the US in only 3 years time frame (Time he was elected to the US Senate to President).

The requirement is Natural born US citizen.. Dureing the 2008 Campaign please explain why Democrats, including Obama and Clinton signed onto a bill that established Mcain as being qualified under the law and why that was never done for Obama?

Why are there 3 members of HIllarys former campaign staff willing to go on the record stating he is not a US citizen?

Last - If all of this has been settled then why has Arpaio been able to investigate and meet the legal requirements to file charges for comitting a crime? If its all been debunked / explained away then there would not be probable cause.


etc etc etc etc....

Courtesy the other thred on this topic -
MCSO Report
www.mcso.org...

reply to post by Xcathdra


Ok.. When this birth certificate / non Us citizen charge came about, please explain where the Clinton campaign got their information and why they used it?

www.pulitzer.org...
www.politico.com...

Why are there so many discrepancies about Obama and books about him that supposedly had his cooperation on those books.

You'll have to be more specific.

Was the government of Kenya making things up when they stated he was a citizen of their country?

Not true.

Why are the INS records missing for the week Obama supposedly flew into Hawaii with his mother? The only missing information for the entire decade so far.

Debunked BS

Why are there so many discprepencies with his birth form that cannot be explained away?

Why is his SSN number not from Hawaii?

Debunked BS

Why does his Selective Service card contain incorrect format / date format on it?

Debunked BS

Why does his BC number inconsisistent with others issued that day?

Debunked BS

Why did the Obama Campaign origionally give his birth in Hawaii as one Hospital, only to change it to another?

Debunked BS

Why are there different layers on the released version of the BC if it was only a scanned copy?

Debunked BS

The person who signed off on Obamas BC, who was not interviewed by the Inbvestigators who were allowed to listen to an interview she gave for the guy writing a book, is stating there are problems - why?

She herself didn't gave false information, probably due to the fact they asked her about something 50 years old, and she's 95... he also lied to the lady and said he was a reporter.

Why did the assistant AG for Hawaii refuse to akcnowledge on the record that the information contained in the form they released was the same that was given to the state of Arizona?

Debunked BS

Please clear up for us the citizenship issues during his time in Indonesia and what nationality he was when he received financial aid.

Debunked BS - The US can't take away citizenship given by another country. All of this has been debunked a million times.

Why is he refusing to release his college transcripts?

Because it's his private property.

Why doesnt anyone ever remeber working / being roomates / hanging out with Obama at college?

Debunked BS

Why are people required to show a drivers license to gain admittance to an event with him when he refuses to provide his own documentation?

Political propaganda.

How does a person go from local state politics to President of the US in only 3 years time frame (Time he was elected to the US Senate to President).

God bless America.

The requirement is Natural born US citizen.. Dureing the 2008 Campaign please explain why Democrats, including Obama and Clinton signed onto a bill that established Mcain as being qualified under the law and why that was never done for Obama?

McCain wasn't born in the US.

Why are there 3 members of HIllarys former campaign staff willing to go on the record stating he is not a US citizen?

Political propaganda.

Last - If all of this has been settled then why has Arpaio been able to investigate and meet the legal requirements to file charges for comitting a crime? If its all been debunked / explained away then there would not be probable cause.

HE hasn't, there's no probable cause, and he's been busted lying about dozens of things... and of course he let dozens of child sexual abuse cases disappear without instigation... consider the source.


Lot's of this stuff has been debunked for months:

www.thefogbow.com...
www.thefogbow.com...
www.thefogbow.com...
www.thefogbow.com...

Friends/alumuni/publications at Columbia:

www.thefogbow.com...

Everywhere else:

Before you ask where all of that stuff was debunked, go through and read these links... then ask why you've never heard WND mention any of this stuff...

then go do some research on who funds WND and their history...

THEN maybe you'll know enough abut this to understand what's going on...

reply to post by longlostbrother


Im sorry I assumed you were going to provide actual answers to the questions instead of just repeating debunked BS over and over.

So what you are stating is you cannot debunk anything that has come out aside from just stating debunked.

well then... thats settled...

/end sarcasm...

ETA

Sine you dont seem to understand law enforcement, probable cause or how it works its based on the individuals doing the actual investigation, not the Sheriff. When Probable cause is established its done by the investigating officer, who in turn would put together a probable cause statement that would normally go to the PA detailing the information and facts supporting the charge.

While I get you dont like Arpaio, he is not the one who did the investigation. Secondly if we are going to use your defitnition of how credible an individual is based on the lies they told then you should think twice about using that criteria in ANY conversation dealing with Obama.

How is that Hope and Change working out so far? I would answer but im still waiting for his open and honest / transparent government to get put in place.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I just added the links...

Choose any and I'll give you a link...but it'll be in a few hours...

but if you want, I'll provide links for all your claims... as they're all widely known to be BS.

Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

I just added the links...

Choose any and I'll give you a link...but it'll be in a few hours...

but if you want, I'll provide links for all your claims... as they're all widely known to be BS.

If you want to convice me, the n please supply links that debunk as much as you can. I have seen both sides of the argument, and what I see now leans towards there being truth behind the invesitgators.

Also, I edited my post apparently after you replied to it.

Those are some really specific answers there.
Especially the....
Debunked BS
Debunked BS
Debunked BS

I found that it works for almost any question.

Why is the sky blue?
Debunked BS.

Is the Pope Catholic?
Debunked BS.

I wanted to add this -

To date, as someone else brought up, the courts have rejected these arguments. The thing people need to consider is those were civil lawsuits where the person filing the charge is required to support their argument.

In this case the investigation that was done was done using criminal standards, not civil. In criminal trials the bar for evidence is higher than in civil.

While its still the requirement of the prosecution to prove their case, the fact it has come to this point is telling, at least to me. I am curious how this is going to play itself out and if anyone from Congress will even look at the information.

I would like to see the investigators send all the info out and to create a list of those who have responded and document their response.

reply to post by rnaa


Well, just stay put where you are! Look... Im going to be nice and not break it off in ya. Its people like you who lie and twist information and thats disturbing( that kind of back and forth doesnt feel good does it). As nice as I can say this..... Worry about you and yours and I will do the same. Sadly, I dont think Obama will make the cut. :-)

Originally posted by PaxVeritas
Correct. It was only presented AS his Birth Certificate.

No it wasn't. What makes you believe that? Can you show me where you got your info from?
It was presented as a PDF image of the certificate and nothing else.

Why the hell would you think a digital image is an actual certificate?

Got us all on a technicality and minced words there genius.

Go YOU!

He got you on reality.

reply to post by badgerpit

Knock it off with the 'birther' crap.

Why? Birthers call themselves Birthers

Are people not allowed to self-identify?

Should we not respect their own preferences?

What shorthand word would you like everyone to use instead of "Birthers"?

reply to post by badgerpit

It is clear that we walk different paths. Regarding tax payer money; there are plenty of worse projects that 'your' taxpayer money is spent on then establishing the credentials of our leaders. You really think these guys walk a straight line? I am sure that a bunch of power hungry billionaires that believe themselves to be above the law would never do anything unscrupulous to hold that power. Never.

I agree. However, even power hungry billionaires live in the real world. I ask you, which is more likely to produce results for a power hungry billionaire:

A) In early 1960's racist America, where misogyny is just about the worst possible race crime you can think of, find a naive college student from Kansas, get her pregnant by an already married black man from Kenya, and groom him to be President and do all the evil stuff we want him to do for us. But we'll make sure he doesn't have a Birth Certificate so when 2008 rolls around he actually wants to run we'll have to fake it.

B) Well well, we have done alright for ourselves with G.W. whom we raised as one of our own, and he delivered for us big time. Now those whiney voters are complaining about us using the Federal Treasury as our own personal checkbook and they are likely to elect a guy that isn't quite so uh... flexible. I think we had better smear him every which way possible. We just make sure to never attack his policies, just his hidden agenda, his personal history, and lie, lie, lie.

In all honesty, do you really think these evil billionaires plotted this all out since 1960? And made all those mistakes? Yes, I know, ATS is a conspiracy site, and this story is its bread and butter. But I get the sense that you are not quite that kind of conspiracy buff. Maybe I'm wrong.

When I ask a question I do not just blindly accept any answer that comes my way. This is what sheep do. If I listen to an answer from a question that I ask and it does not line up logically with my other thoughts, then yes I will ask again. If the answer does not line up again, I can pretty much guarantee that whoever is giving me the answers is either hiding something or lying. You don't find this to be true?

I'm glad you don't blindly accept any answer. But just asking the question again and expecting a different answer is very poor way to validate your answer. Expecting an answer to "line up logically with your other thoughts" and rejecting it if is doesn't is called "confirmation bias".

If an answer says "the PDF layers are perfectly normal compression artifacts from the process of scanning a document" doesn't "line up logically with your other thoughts" that the Birth Certificate PDF is a forgery, and you reject the answer on that basis, then you haven't really asked the question have you?

You would make better headway if, when you get an answer that "does not line up logically with my other thoughts" you would ask questions that address those other thoughts. What is the point of asking the same question over and over.

Regarding your suggestions of me being delusional; if you read your comments you will see that you are not really engaged in conversation. You are on a bull horn. You have zero intent to learn anything (at least from me) and there are things to learn if you had an openness to it. You go ahead and place me in that 'crazy box', because I am sure that is the safe thing for your brain to do. I think our conversation is ended on this.

You have it completely bass-askwards here, you know that don't you?

You said, and I quote

If you are content with the lullabies you are told then please go back to sleep. You have opinions (not facts) on the subject, fine, so does everyone else. We are entitled to them. The difference with our approach is that I have no personal agenda here other than seeking more information, and your mind seems made up regardless of whats going on around you.

You have accused me of being delusional (hearing lullabies) and to go away and leave you alone (go back to sleep).

You have admitted that when an answer doesn't "line up logically with your other thoughts" that you reject it. That puts the lie to your earlier statement that you are here to seek information. You are clearly here to seek confirmation and confirmation only. If you come here with the belief that the BC is a fraud, then you will reject any answers to the contrary because they don't "line up logically with my other thoughts". That is not "seeking information", that is embracing ignorance.

I would never suggest that you are deluded to come here seeking information and answers to correct misunderstandings. But if you come here only for confirmation of your personal biases, then you are deluded to think that other posters will comply.

It would have been less controversial if they had released the BC as a jpg.

PDF's are easily disputed.


Other theories are also possible.

1. The BC info was "submitted" to conceal the true Father's identity.

1a. Obama Sr. was used as a convenient scapegoat and possibly paid by the family.

2. The BC info was "submitted" after Ann and Barrack returned from the real birthplace.
(where ever that may have been)

2a. "Grandma" Dunham "submitted" the info before Ann and Barrack returned to Hawaii from Indonesia.

Ann's Mother and Father were well connected to local "authorities".

The whole thing could have very easily been fixed at local levels in those days.

Keep in mind that many States had laws prohibiting inter racial marriage in those days.

Hawaii did not.


Longshot - even with the obvious "error". ---
This could be a copy of the BC that Ann used to register Barrack in grade school
after their return from Indonesia.

reply to post by Dbriefed

Sheriff Arpaio is a true hero, and I have serious doubts about Obama's qualifications to be president. However as far as proof of birth certificate, if a false certificate was offered, there's nothing that says a real one still exists. The certificate offered was a pretty lame and unprofessional fake, most people on ATS could have done a much better job.

If "Sheriff Arpaio is a true hero" why is the 'investigation' unofficial?
Why is the investigation being run by amateurs instead of experienced, professional, MCS Officers?
Why is the investigation output being published by a tabloid blog instead of being submitted to the Attorney General?
Why is he giving press conferences in church halls instead of asking the Attorney General to lay charges?
Why is he refusing to respond to subpoenas to testify under oath?
Why is he using this stuff to distract people from his very real problems with the Feds?

Think on these things before you ascribe herodom to the Sherrif.

You have every right to challenge President Obama's qualifications for President. Judgement of qualifications is something every voter has to do for themselves. In 2008 most Americans decided he was qualified, but many thought otherwise. No problem.

President Obama has never-the-less established his eligibility for President beyond any question and more fully than any President (or Candidate) in history. Two Birth Certificates and a half dozen official verifications of the information on the certificate proves it beyond any question.

I know you think the BC is a fake, and that you could have done a better job. That's OK, you can continue to think that, but also consider this: The State of Hawai'i has, in addition to verifying that they actually provided the published Birth Certificates to President Obama, verified that each and every individual data item on the published forms (the ones you think are forged) are correct, and they have done so officially and without ambiguity to state officials in Arizona and court officials in Florida.

So with that in mind:

1) How can the State of Hawai'i, in full possession of the birth event data, and the sole official authority responsible for producing birth certificates, produce a fake certificate that is exactly like a real certificate? Can the U.S. Mint produce a counterfeit coin that is exactly like a real coin?

2) Why would Obama, in possession of (or able to get possession of) a real BC with real information substitute a fake BC with exactly the same real information?

I'm not asking you to change your mind about Obama's qualifications, qualifications are subjective and are your opinion. If you don't think he's qualified, or at least that the other guy is more qualified, then don't vote for him. Simple as that.

But I am asking you to think about whether or not your belief that the BC is a fake makes any sense. It is the information on the BC that is important, not what format the form is, or whether it was scanned to a PDF or a JPG. Scanning doesn't change the information, and the information is what is important. The BC could have been printed on toilet paper and as long as the information is certified as accurate, then it is valid.

Can someone answer...didn't Obama release an online version of his long form Birth Certificate?

I don't recall what the outcome was, but I believe that the online version was challenged as
a forgery and Obama responded by saying it was just a version he had put online to show
that he actually had a long form form available, but that it wasn't an actual copy of the
real document....can somebody help me here?.....

reply to post by rival


It was an electronic copy. HE didn't make it, the Hawaiian Government did.

It's not "fake" any more than a photo of you make you "fake".

The controversy stems from birthers making # up about scanning software; namely that because the document had layers, it was the product of a forgery.

This has been debunked dozens of times, and you can see evidence and proof here:

www.snopes.com...

reply to post by PaxVeritas


Here's 10K of tax money he's spent:

www.azcentral.com...

You can see him lying through his teeth in this video.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

There's no credible evidence at all.

Show us what you think is credible and I'll show you where it's already been, probably for months, debunked.

Lot's of people keep claiming there's evidence, but none of them can point to any that hasn't been debunked.

Ok.. When this birth certificate / non Us citizen charge came about, please explain where the Clinton campaign got their information and why they used it?

I already gave you two links explaining this, but I'll add that lying about your opponent in a primary is old hat... Google: John McCain secret Black Baby - after reading up on that, ask yourself if the claims were at all true, just becasue they were made.

Why are there so many discrepancies about Obama and books about him that supposedly had his cooperation on those books.

Give me examples and we can discuss them.

Was the government of Kenya making things up when they stated he was a citizen of their country?

You must be referring to James Orengo? Why did he say it once, in a debate about the Kenyan constitution? I don't know. He certainly didn't provide any proof. In the same debate, another lawmaker said that the US had 51 states though... I suppose you also take that at face value?

urbanlegends.about.com...

One claim, made by a guy with no more evidnce than you or I, isn't evidence, it's just a claim.

Why are the INS records missing for the week Obama supposedly flew into Hawaii with his mother? The only missing information for the entire decade so far.

This is one of those classic Sheriff Joe LIES.

The Claim is wrong and nonsensical for many reasons, here's one, you can go rad the rest yourself:

Even for August 1961, they flat-out admit that they only found reels for records through August 12. So there appear to be no records for August 13-31 either, and thus they’re lying to say only the first week of August is missing.

www.thefogbow.com...

Why are there so many discprepencies with his birth form that cannot be explained away?

I no of none that can't be explained, give me specific examples and we'll debunk them one at a time.

Why is his SSN number not from Hawaii?

SSNs are not absolutely regional. Her's what the Social Security amdin says:

Note: One should not make too much of the "geographical code." It is not meant to be any kind of useable geographical information. The numbering scheme was designed in 1936 (before computers) to make it easier for SSA to store the applications in our files in Baltimore since the files were organized by regions as well as alphabetically. It was really just a bookkeeping device for our own internal use and was never intended to be anything more than that.

Why does his Selective Service card contain incorrect format / date format on it?

Extensively debunked here:

wiki.birtherdebunkers.net...:_.22Obama.27s_draft_registration_was_fal sified..22

Why does his BC number inconsisistent with others issued that day?

It's not. That's BS.

Documents came into the registrar in regional batches,Consecutively numbered in sequence by batch, regional offices in separate batches, Certs were numbered at the end of the month, Even numbered submitted to feds, Bates stamp (numerical stamper) Numbering:
Ah’Nee – 09945 – August 23rd
Nordyke, Susan – 10637 – August 5th
Nordyke, Gretchen – 10638 – August 5th
Obama, Barack – 10641 – August 4th
Sunahara, Virginia - 11080- August 4, 1961 (???) Virginia Sunahara was born at Wahiawa General in a different city (according to birthers)
Waidelich, Stig – 10920 – August 5th

www.thefogbow.com...

Why did the Obama Campaign origionally give his birth in Hawaii as one Hospital, only to change it to another?

They didn't. One of their volunteers copied incorrect bio info off Wiki onto their blog on the Obama social networking site. No one in the Obama team had anything to do with that. Basically, if I post "aliens are landing" on Facebook, would you claim that FACEBOOK said aliens are landing?

Why are there different layers on the released version of the BC if it was only a scanned copy?

Debunked numerous times... here's one example



It'll take another post to finish this... and I can't be bothered at the moment... I'll do it later today...

You need to go read through all of that first.

reply to post by rnaa


I don't agree with everything that you say concerning how you interpret my words, which is fine. We are engaged in a circular argument at this point and there is no escape from those. You go on believing that any further investigation into this subject in not warranted, and I will go on with the idea that more information needs to be gathered to bring this subject to a conclusion. Yes, I do suspect foul play but that is not a conviction on my part, only suspicion, which is why I seek further investigation. I will end this by saying that no emotion on my part is used up with my desire for the truth on this matter. I do not hate the president or am motivated by some sort of racial bias or anything like that. I am motivated by the idea that I want any leader for this country making decisions concerning me, my family, my friends, my community, and all of society to be making them with our best interests at heart. If he is not American then I could never trust him to do this, not 100 percent anyways. That is all, peace.

reply to post by badgerpit

I don't agree with everything that you say concerning how you interpret my words, which is fine. We are engaged in a circular argument at this point and there is no escape from those. You go on believing that any further investigation into this subject in not warranted, and I will go on with the idea that more information needs to be gathered to bring this subject to a conclusion. Yes, I do suspect foul play but that is not a conviction on my part, only suspicion, which is why I seek further investigation. I will end this by saying that no emotion on my part is used up with my desire for the truth on this matter. I do not hate the president or am motivated by some sort of racial bias or anything like that. I am motivated by the idea that I want any leader for this country making decisions concerning me, my family, my friends, my community, and all of society to be making them with our best interests at heart. If he is not American then I could never trust him to do this, not 100 percent anyways. That is all, peace.

I repeat I have no problem with you seeking answers. I have a problem with you refusing answers. The bottom line is that Obama was born in Hawai'i in 1961. That fact that you don't know how MCP compression works in a scanner hardware/software combination is irrelevant to the FACT that the State of Hawai'i has officially confirmed that he was born in Honolulu in 1961 at least a dozen times. No bit chasing is going to change that fact. It is TRUTH.

I also have a problem with nit-picking over trivial stuff about a PDF and you apparently aren't worried in the least about Romney's refusal to release his tax returns, a practice initiated by his father, and an actually relevant picture on the integrity of a man who is openly owned body and soul by Wall Street. And if you are so hung up on scanning compression artifacts in PDF documents, why aren't you asking the same questions about Romney's VOID Birth Certificate PDF?

So ask all the questions you want, but be prepared to accept answers that don't fit with you preconceived notions. And if your intentions are truly what you claim above, then you had better examine all the other candidates just as minutely and skeptically.

If you don't do that you are the worst kind of liar: a hypocrite.

It was an electronic copy. HE didn't make it, the Hawaiian Government did.

reply to post by longlostbrother


NOT CORRECT.

The non-standard BC (the so-called 'long form') Hawai'i supplied to President Obama last year was a PAPER COPY (two actually).

Hawai'i photocopied the original Birth Event Record (which is bound into a book along with many other Birth Records) onto security paper. They then applied the Certification and the Seal. It was then given to President Obama's attorney who hand carried it to the White House. The PDF that was published was a scan of that paper document and was performed in the White House on an Apple Macintosh computer (the software footprints are in the document metadata).

The standard BC (the so-called 'short form' or 'COLB') Hawai'i supplied to Senator Obama in 2007 was also a PAPER copy.

That standard BC was produced by retrieving the data from a computer database, printing it onto security paper and applying the Certification and the Seal. Presumably, this document was mailed to the Senator. The PDF that was published in 2008 was a scan of that paper document and was performed, (presumably) by the campaign headquarters. I haven't researched which machine was used for that one.