Resolving the Paradox - The REASON for faith in Jesus Christ.

This OP is in response to the thread

If there is a hell, could God change the system?

But because it presents some new ideas for discussion involving the reason for faith in Jesus Christ, I thought it would be appropriate to present it as a new thread for discussion.

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reply to post by NewAgeMan

There is a fundamental problem, though (re: replacement of hell with the karmic wheel), and it's the indestructability of the soul, combined with the everlasting righteousness of God.

On the karmic wheel, if bad people reincarnate into increasing degrees of suffering or a variation of whatever suffering and torment plagued their past life (or that they inflicted upon others) - this does lead to a type of cataclysm, making of our world of manifestation, a gateway into hell, which is a ridiculous notion of downward causation in diametric opposition to the adage of "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

Therefore, the cross of Jesus Christ and his eternal resurrected life and intercessory grace IS essential in avoiding hell, just not in the way we might have expected and for a justifyable reason we might not have previously considered..

So the free gift of grace, while it cannot be freely offered, or freely recieved under threat of hell, cannot be taken lightly either as the set standard of the very height of a severe justice and a tender mercy who's "import and export" is a radical, transformative forgiveness, from the top, down.

As a rsolution to the paradox, it's an immovable rock, against which "the gates of hell will not prevail". But as a loving invitation, it's one that is nevertheless offered in a loving spirit, who said "my yoke is easy and my burden, light." For us this rock of ages is quite simply the testimony or profession of faith and belief, that Jesus was God-sent and his Magnum Opus, a great work, based not on how man thinks, but on God's love, which becomes plainly obvious to us when we seriously consider the reasoning and motivation of Jesus in completing the work he was sent to perform "from the very foundation of the world" (more on that to follow in a later post, which will surely blow your mind).

The great challenge then, presented by Jesus fully "grokked" (understood at the deepest level, meaning to eat or drink of an idea and thus integrating it into one's core being), resides in one's capacity to receive such a free gift of incalculable value, for which we did and can do nothing to earn or deserve, or repay whereby God did for us, via Jesus, what we could not do for ourselves ("by human resources alone it is impossible, but not for God because for God all things are possible').

Understood in this way, what we have is something that is capable of both bringing us to our knees in repentance and yet, that ALSO wipes away the tears from our eyes while evoking a big smile and childlike laughter, even wonderment and awe, of a love so great that it could only have been heaven-sent, not according to the will of man, but according to the will of God.

"But let it be not as I would have it, but as thou would have it."
~ Jesus Christ, from the Garden of Gethsemane

Extraordinary! Abba!

So the gates of hell were and ARE crashed, right here and now, through our own reception and understanding of Jesus Christ and what he was really up to, and the circle can then be rejoined WITHOUT a cataclysm and the neccessity of hell, avoided!

So in that sense, there is no threat of hell in the invitation of the ages presented through Jesus Christ by none other than the God of love.

It's an all-inclusive, not an either/or proposition, you see.

Imagine that...

This represents a big-time difference from what the fundamentalist conservatives are saying while saying a variation of the same thing but in an infinitely more reasonable manner, however unreasonably reasonable it may have been on Jesus' part as a loving invitation extended towards us for the sake of a transcendant and eternal love who's aim and hope it is that none are lost in the fullness of time and history.

So the hope for the end of hell, when hell and death are themselves thrown onto the lake of fire, and the evil one, into the abyss (oblivion), is in the continued conversation about and the preaching/sharing of the gospel of love until the sacred circle of love is rejoined and the brotherhood of man, restored.

But come either hell or high water, the love of God cannot be denied, so that heaven, not hell, breaks into the world from above, and so that God's will, which is the will to love is "done on earth as it is in heaven" (as above, so below).

Oh what a friend we have in Jesus!

Thank you Jesus, for getting the job done, so that we too might have a pathway into heaven and out of hell or even the hellish paradox of a karmic wheel that otherwise collapses into hell by its own inherent loss of integrity.

So Jesus CAN get people out of hell, gathering his flock to himself, and be rid of hell within his own ever-expanding sphere of integrity in the never ending love of God, a love made manifest and whole and complete relative to the shortcomings and the failure of love on our part..

It's true.

It doesn't matter one iota then, the ignorance and stupidity of the average "Christian" who offers the love of Christ at the end of the devil's pichfork extended @ you!

Because there is no devil in Christ who is nothing less than the love of God expressed freely and openly to everyone, whether they believe, or not.

All the treasure is in him and the treasure is his love.

The devil, if there was one, has no part in this, so indeed the strong man WAS bound entirely and everything of any value, removed from him.

And hey, anything that happens once can happen a 2nd time or a 3rd, so John's vision in Revelation was as applicable then, as it is now..


May all who thirst come and freely drink of the (non dual) living water of eternal life. Amen.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

So the free gift of grace, while it cannot be freely offered, or freely recieved under threat of hell,

You just ruined your entire argument.

So in that sense, there is no threat of hell in the invitation of the ages presented through Jesus Christ by none other than the God of love.

It's an all-inclusive, not an either/or proposition, you see.

Imagine that...

So basically, almost every church in America is lying to us. Imagine that!

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Not all chuches preach "fire and brimstone", and converts won in that manner remain divided and in conflict having been indoctrinated by fear, and not drawn by love.

It's a very slight and subtle twist, but it's not the gospel really, which presents an unconditional and irresistable love, a love that automatically brings any person to repentance who understands it and recieves it.

This invitational Christianity is also circling the globe don't forget.

So now the only thing that it contends with, directly, is the willful pride of man or the devil within who hates the preaching/sharing of the true gospel message of God's love in Christ.

My prayer is that hearts and minds can remain open, so that upon re-investigation, free from any contemptuous bias, there can be "grokking".

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Not all chuches preach "fire and brimstone",

But they do say you'll go to hell if you don't worship Jesus. What was all that in your OP about either/or?

which presents an unconditional and irresistable love, a love that automatically brings any person to repentance who understands it and recieves it.

Yes, and if all else fails, threaten eternal damnation. They did that to my parents, once. My parents told the pastor to meet them there.

So now the only thing that it contends with, directly, is the willful pride of man

Versus the willful pride of God, who is Jealous? (look it up, please)

reply to post by AfterInfinity

It is only appropriate that we love God and of course he hates (grieves the spirit) to see us love and worship idols, so it's a jealous love yes, but of the right kind, which describes a longing for the relationship between beloved and beloved other and that we all might be reunited within the framework of one heavenly household.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Looking at the Bible, I can't really say love is a heavy theme through all of it. Obsession, yes, extreme subservience, yes, absolute dependence, yes, and thoroughly harsh tantrums, yes. Love? Not so much.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

However, when we really consider the true nature of the great work of Jesus Christ, it's there, plain as day.

The point is that none of us possess perfect integrity and wholeness relative to the absolute perfection and holiness of God and so in Christ, summed up in him and his work, the work he was sent to perform according to the love of God, and in accordance with his righteousness, and unending love, we can see and come to recognize that the circle is joined and the possibility of separation, removed.

However, it's only formative or generative, transformative and revolutionary, once recieved as the free gift that it is.

Otherwise we're back to the paradox of the unending karmic wheel..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Why do you call him Jesus Christ, anyway? His name was never Christ. That's a title, like a king or pharaoh.

absolute perfection and holiness

Source would not judge something for a mistake it made in itself. We learn from our natural consequences, not a Source-induced, divine judgment. That's a critical moral mistake in the development of a species that is supposed to cultivate independence.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Our hearts were made to contain nothing less than the spirit of the living God. We are made to be in relationship with God and the brotherhood of man ie: to love God above all and neighbor as self.

I would like to share this, based on the framework I'm trying to forward for consideration.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Thanks, NewAgeMan... after an evening of watching Richard Dawkins (for something else) that was the perfect prescription to counter that nonsense

I think I'll listen to Lockridge's "That's My King" (with thanks to NOTurTYPICAL for always bringing that to my mind) to finish off the night.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by adjensen

 

Thank you too! At first I wasn't sure, thought the folksy black minister of the south might have been putting one over on me, but then it continued.... and now here I am in tears, look what you've done to me!

And it's true.

Thank God or we'd all be totally screwed, but gratitude and joy, not fear is the real response. He's the courage, on the other side of fear (said like a black preacher!)

Nighty night.

Love to all, in Christ, the everlasting happiness... etc etc.,

NAM

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Our hearts were made to contain nothing less than the spirit of the living God.

Then why create hell, unless we were expected to go apes**t and ruin everything?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

There is a fundamental problem, though, and it's the indestructability of the soul, combined with the everlasting righteousness of God.

Consider also the breakdown of integrity and the causal dilemma/paradox of the karmic wheel.

I wish you would seriously consider what I presented in the OP and instead of attacking from a biased and somewhat contemptuous POV, inquire into what's being conveyed.

The point is that the cross of Jesus Christ makes no compromise with sin and evil while upholding the twin pillars of justice and mercy, in a just judgement who's export is mercy and forgiveness.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Why are you quoting a post I didn't make?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


God makes no compromise with the sin and evil that he created? He creates us as flawed beings, then threatens to punish us for his mistake unless we pretend that he's the greatest for giving us this s**t to deal with?

Sounds intelligent. Nah, actually, sounds like a trap.

cross of Jesus Christ

Shall I post the history of the cross? Jesus's last name, for the last time, is not Christ, and the cross isn't even Christian. It was stolen because it makes a pretty good torture device. But wait! According to some versions, it was a tree, not a cross!

WTF!

So if we sin we don't stay in hell for an eternity? Just as long as it takes to realise what we did was very wrong?

I always heard hell was a place you wouldn't want to send even your worst enemy.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

God makes no compromise with the sin and evil that he created? He creates us as flawed beings, then threatens to punish us for his mistake unless we pretend that he's the greatest for giving us this s**t to deal with?

Because of free will, sharing, and because love to be love must be free.

And what we see in Jesus' Magnum Opus, is God nevertheless taking on full responsibility for the dilemma, and that's the central thesis of this thread, how a provision was made for reconciliation and atonement that we as children of God would not be left orphaned/separated from God in our sinful aspect, but that instead we might be transformed, however fast or slowly as a work in progress on the path of progress towards perfection via a radical, transformative forgiveness.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Why are you quoting a post I didn't make?

I was responding to you and quoting an answer that you didn't seem to read, or grasp fully, as to a predicament neccessitating the possibility of hell, a possibility that's been removed by the work of Jesus the Christ (annointed by God).

Re: hell - consider this woman's testimony, and how she got out, which shows that God can enter hell to retrieve the retrievable.


What it also reveals is that we can create our own hells of our own making, which in the spirit realm can place one into a terrible predicament based on a viscious loop of misunderstanding, but one which God is prepared to help us resolve. But what if a person is hell bent on being hell bent?
This is why I appeal to God to eliminate the possibility of hell and place us all back onto the karmic wheel, the resolution of which is the goodness, the righteousness and the love of Jesus Christ. That said, there are some I would imagine who ought not be permitted to reincarnate, so where would that leave them..?

All that said, I am convinced that it's much much better that there is something, and freedom, than nothing at all or the "life" of a puppet on strings.

What Jesus reveals really is the lengths to which God will go to ensure that the human being is included and not excluded in his great plan.

Maybe, if we are able to recognize the life of Jesus as informed by a sent-calling, we might even come to recognize in our very best self (recovered), the jewel in God's crowning glory whereby the first shall be last and the last (that's us) first.