Why do 'debunkers' devote so much time to defending the Official 9/11 story??

Originally posted by thegameisup
Richard Gage is doing is keeping his efforts going, and I commend him for all his efforts and persisting to find the real truth about 9/11. Like a politican, it cost money to keep a campaign going, and Richard Gage has to finance his endeavours somehow.

And we all know "research" like this is so expensive....

I think for some Debunkers on 9/11 ...It gives them a sense of power over others...it make them feel good to be able to group a sect of people into one lot where they can call us all lunatics,crazy,hologram,no plane eating fraudsters...which helps to builds ones ego and give them a sense of superiority over others for towing the line of the government.

The thing is since we truthers fall into this category What really is there to debunk...I mean seriouly...we are just nutters...we see things....we don't see things...We are holograms ourselves...we only use the internet...YOUTUBE to be precise...we can't think for ourselves....So QUESTION.

WHAT IS THERE TO DEBUNK.

The debunkers don't have anything to fear...because the 9/11 commission was spot on.....NIST was spot on.....FEMA was spot on....I mean those are the only papers associated with the OS...and because they were such glorious reports...and they are infallible...There really is nothing to debunk so us lunatic fringe truthers should be of no real concern to the debunkers.

Also since truthers are all liars...Myself especially...compulsive liar....ask anyone out there...all i do is lie...so heck...no point in arguing with a liar...so why argue with me....I can only guess it must be because not all is as it seems...It must be because i am just so enjoyable.

The Debunking mystery to me is this though....As a truther...I wonder why i do not only spend my time in 9/11 threads...To me 9/11 touches on many things like the NWO(threads)....US political madness(threads)....secret societies(threads)...deconstructing dis infromation(threads)...ETC ETC ETC.

Yet i do not ever see any of the regulars in there...I find that a bit strange...So maybe i could ask...why do the regular debunkers not enter the fray of ATS as a whole...it is a great place...there is more to life than just 9/11....heck i even go out in the real world everyday...you know...to work...have fun...socialize...and to attend 9/11 conferences.....Where i actually meet people for real...and we discuss real questions...with people who think alike and do not think alike...but for some reasonn when in public i don't face the riddicule that happens in 9/11 forums....strange that is...Oh right...back to the top....EGO!.

Originally posted by spoor
[
And we all know "research" like this is so expensive....

Again, this is not a thread about richard gage, this video also does not truthfully represent the extent of his research, it's just a very basic demonstration to get a simple point across, I think anyone can see what he is trying to say.

Here is the website he is connected to, I think you'll find this is much more comprehensive: www.ae911truth.org...

Please refrain from taking the thread off topic, if you wish to discuss any 9/11 researcher that you disagree with, then you are free to make a thread about it. I am assuming you will make a thread about any issues you have now?

Originally posted by thegameisup
reply to post by thegameisup

 

However, it seems that you dislike anyone that may have profitted from conspiracy theories, but you are happy to be a member on ATS, which does operate as a business?

If ATS is operating as a business, and indirectly profitting from 9/11conspiracy theories, then surely if you are against any profitting from 9/11, you would keep away from 9/11 forums?

All websites cost money to keep running, Politicians have ten's on millions pumped into their campaigns, and people still support them, all Richard Gage is doing is keeping his efforts going, and I commend him for all his efforts and persisting to find the real truth about 9/11. Like a politican, it cost money to keep a campaign going, and Richard Gage has to finance his endeavours somehow.

You asked "Why do 'debunkers' devote so much time to defending the Official 9/11 story ??" I explained that I am not necessarily a debunker, per se, and that I follow the evidence and comment when the con artists try to snooker the readers on technical points. I do not defend any story. Perhaps your assumption that those who find fault with unsupported theories must be defenders of the undefined "official story" is incorrect. If only defenders of such an "official story" responded, your thead would be more sparse than it is now or even non-existent. Many people who show the faults of contrived and poorly thought out theories are not defending anything, they are merely showing the faults of contrived and poorly thought out theories. You should rethink your position, if you are able.
Apparently, you have trouble reading. I said "I don't believe anyone who sells CD's for the "cause." Their cause is cash for themselves from the good intentioned and gullible." They have a vested interest in keeping their pet theory alive. Liking or not liking is not part of it. They are in business to sell product. I used Gage as an example because either his knowledge of structural engineering is abysmally lacking or he is willing to say anything to keep the money flowing.
ATS is distinctly different from people like Gage. Gage profits from selling products. ATS profits indirectly from 911 conspiracy [and many other discussion topics]; they do not espouse one position or another and their profits are from the discussions between members. Mods have opinions but they are the opinions of individual Mods and not ATS.

Originally posted by Six Sigma

Originally posted by thegameisup
Why do 'debunkers' devote so much time to defending the Official 9/11 story ??

I started off as a truther... (a very brief time) My questions brought me here. I found the answers I needed.

Why do I debunk 9/11 Conspiracies?

Because I don't want to see charlatans like Richard Gage attempt to rewrite history.

edit on 10-7-2012 by Six Sigma because: (no reason given)

I have never come across anyone before that started as a 'truther' especially seeing as the official story along came along first.

Everyone I know that disbelieves the OS, initially believed it, and then after being fascinated by what happened, they then researched it, and started to see holes in the OS, and that led them to further investigation, and finding more lies in the OS.

Another 'debunker' that seems to think this thread is about Richard Gage. History is written by those in power, they have the power to control people, they have the power to write the history, even if that history is biased and frequently untrue.

Richard Gage is not trying to rewrite history, he his trying to expose the lies in the OS, and if you do not believe you have been lied to by the government and the media then that is your choice, but it does not mean their version of events is correct, especially if 9/11 was an inside job.

Originally posted by -PLB-
Funny thing is that I always wonder the same about truthers. It seems the only thing they do is argue on websites. About the most useless thing there is to do. Don't truthers have more important things to do like doing investigations, publishing papers on why the collapses are impossible, and starting court cases to get the guilty punished?

My motive is primarily entertainment. I don't really believe I am getting through to anyone but it is somewhat interesting to read all the fallacies and then see someone get angry when those fallacies are pointed out. I think it also is educative, you can learn a lot about how the human psyche works.

edit on 11-7-2012 by -PLB- because: (no reason given)

The thread is not a question of why truthers are on 9/11 forums, you are free to make a thread about that if you are curious.

'Truthers' as you call them generally dont argue with each other, it's when they see 'debunkers' spreading disinfo that things can get heated.

If you feel your government is telling lies, as they have done throughout history, and you are paying tax to them, then people have the right to question their actions, and many 'truthers' feel that they have been lies to, and therefore will persue the 9/11 cause to at least let it be known that the OS is one big lie. Surely it is only natural that people will stand up for their rights, and will be passionate about situations like 9/11, especially when innocent people were killed due to wars that surfaced on the back of 9/11 and the OS lies?

If 'debunkers' like yourself find perpetuating the OS lies as entertainment, then that suggests 'debunkers' find innocent people dying through false wars as entertaining! Which is a disgusting way to behave imo. Why would you need to feel you are 'getting through' to people? Are you the 'thought police' ? Surely people should be free to make their own minds up, think for themselves, without others trying to force opinions?

reply to post by thegameisup

Richard Gage is not trying to rewrite history, he his trying to expose the lies in the OS

But you have to wonder why he doesn't publish peer reviewed papers that prove the building could not have collapsed due to planes and fire. He has the degrees. He has the plans. But all he does is sell dvds and give speeches. Both for money. Couldn't provide the world with proof positive and then write a best selling book?

It's these little things that keep me coming back.

reply to post by spoor


I do love how debunkers use that vid...yet fail to see the point...RESISTANCE.....and...TIME.

but go ahead...because we could always do this.



you hear the term...resistance....most likely not did you....and have you bothered to watch the whole program...or did you just take out the out bit so that would do well in misrepresenting a point of view...whether it be correct or incorrect.

Do you see how you have done just exactly what truthers get accused of...way to go...so does this mean you to can get categorized.

Two things...You used YOUTUBE.....which truthers get accused of.
You took something out of context......Welcome truther.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
It annoys me when people create nonsense to make themselves feel superior, or to make money. I enjoy refuting the kind of weak thinking that allows stuff like 9/11 conspiracies to flourish.

Incidentally I don't think there's such a thing as an "OS" really. It's just a shorthand Truthers use that is sometimes useful but generally is employed to make the notion of an "inside job" seem like a fait accompli.

There was a cover up, and some parts of the MSM are alive to this. It's just one of those boring old cover ups about information which brave CTers never seem that interested in. I'd echo the above posters' notions about CTs and 9/11 in particular being a good excuse to do nothing, feel superior, and sit on the internet, or sell stuff.

How do you know the OS is completely true? If it was as true as they would like it to be then there would not be so many people doubting it and discussing it 11 years down the line.

You are free to believe what you want, but what gives 'debunkers' the right to force people to believe the OS?

Why would you be bothered about 9/11 conspiracy theories if they are just theories to you? Surely you'd be happy that the OS can stand up for itself?

You say there is nothing such as the 'OS' but equally there is nothing such as 'truthers' it's just a slang term that appears in no dictionary.

The OS is just a short term to describe the official version of events, but that version of events is biased, and to many is a pack of lies, some can see this, others choose to ignore this, but this website's motto is: 'deny ignorance' and 'truthers' will always deny ignorance.

You say there was a 'cover up' and you seem so sure it was just a 'boring old cover up'. You have no knowing the extent of the cover up, but the very admittance that there was a cover up, should tell you the government are prepared to lie, and you need to find out the depth of the real cover up. 'Truthers' have realised the depth of this cover up, and continue to research this area because they know the OS is a total lie. Unfortunately not all OS supporters, like yourself have realised the full extent, maybe 'debunkers' do not want to admit that their governement is covering a lot up, it's quite evident based on their reports.

A small fraction of people connected to 9/11 monetise their websites, these sites cost money to run, and ATS is no different, so if you support ATS and dont mind it as a website monetising itself to keep afloat, then there should be no problem with other 9/11 websites doing the same. It's only a small amount of people doing that, there are only so many 9/11 websites that exist. There are millions of people around the word that disbelieve the OS, and none of these are out to make money, just out to find the real truth. I know you don't get 'truthers' because you have bought the OS hook, line and sinker, but a lot of people do see beyone the 9/11 OS lies.

reply to post by samkent


Ok Samkent...ummm...in order to prove then one needs access to all evidence...does one not....SO how about the government agencies give him and others full access to all the evidence that might be required...to make proof positive either way...I mean they did not even give NIST access to more than 2% of the materials...and they were not even allowed on site to do analysis of soil,the apparent molten steel...and other such things...not only that their writ was only to take it up to the point of collapse...not to explain the collapse themselves....And you know what...you will not have an answer for this...Do you know why....Because there is not one....So if you do answer this then it will show you are not actually telling the truth now won't it.

So please when you reply to this...make sure you state it as opinion...because it is that kind of question.

Hello pteridine

You asked "Why do 'debunkers' devote so much time to defending the Official 9/11 story ??" I explained that I am not necessarily a debunker, per se, and that I follow the evidence and comment when the con artists try to snooker the readers on technical points.

If this is the case...then why not pull Spoor on taking a vid out of context...and even though the richard gage example was akward...why did you not take spoor to task on what was actually the point of the representation...

It you say what you say...then you should question both sides...I know i do....When some says something silly from either side i will point it out...I have on occasion not agreed with Maxella.....and also with Anok....and with psik....but we still discuss...Being human we are all open to making mistakes...and i make many of my own....but you cannot say you follow the evidence...yet when someone from the debunker side says something ridiculous you cannot just choose to ignore them can you, and then say you follow evidence.

I argue both sides...but i am a truther...i want truth...not bunk.

Originally posted by lunarasparagus
I've done a bit of "debunking" in this forum. Let's see:

one thing, I get pissed-off when I see what I believe to be misinfo, disinfo, ignorance, rumor, innuendo, and propaganda, being peddled as "truth" on the internet or anywhere else. Those things are harmful and dangerous. So I speak up. It's a natural response. What's the mystery?

Additionally, I like the challenge of a puzzle or mystery. I like to find answers. When I see questions proposed with answers I don't buy, I like the challenge of uncovering the truth. Or at least exposing the fallacy of a bogus answer. It's fun.

There is a lot of OS misinfo/disinfo, and these imo are far more dangerous than any other form of misinfo. This needs to be addressed, and people that disbeleive the OS do their best to expose the lies.

Personally, I have never "guarded the official reports". Some of you are very prone to black and white thinking. The assumption is that if I don't buy your conspiracy theory, I must therefore believe and support everything the government has reported. WTF? Just because I don't believe you doesn't mean I believe "them".

You're entitled to believe what you want, but if you have spent so much time researching 9/11 then surely you would think that somethin is not right with the OS?

It's not about the OS being sound and correct. I'm a skeptic. When any conspiracy theory becomes LESS absurd to me than the Government's absurdities, then I might refocus my attention. So far though, it hasn't happened.

Maybe some theories might be absurd, but many of the OS lies are absurd, some of the things they present as evidence in their OS reports are an insult to man's intelligence.

The propagation of misinfo is always harmful. It's in my nature to expose what I believe to be lies.

Why do you not expose the OS lies, I don;t recall any 'debunker' exposing any of the OS lies?

Why do you care to debate "OSers" if your smoking guns are so smokin?

You didnt answer the question, which was: "Why would you care to 'debunk' anything if the OS stands up for itself?"

We unfortunately can only uncover the lies in the OS, and then share our findings, we do not have the facility to write a biased government report, because we are not the government!

Why do you care what a debunker says if you know it's wrong? I think we all care when we hear being propagated what we believe to be lies. Again--what's the mystery here?

We care about the truth, we don't like being lied to by the government, the people whose wages we pay, and we don't like people spreading lies to back up the governments lies. We have no reason to lie.

Nohing's water tight. But bull# always stinks.

You are correct, the OS is definitely not water tight, and it sure does stink of BS!

And you?

Again, you did not answer the question, which was: "Why do you spend so much time on 9/11 forums if there is nothing for you to gain?"
Maybe the questions you haven't answered are ones you want to avoid answering?

We have a lot to gain, we don't like being lied to by the governments that we are supposed to trust, the people whose wages we pay, we don't like to see people killed innocently by government funded terroism, and we don't like to see wars that are based on lies, where thousands of innocent people die.
Do you support such activity?

Originally posted by plube
reply to post by samkent

 

Hello pteridine

You asked "Why do 'debunkers' devote so much time to defending the Official 9/11 story ??" I explained that I am not necessarily a debunker, per se, and that I follow the evidence and comment when the con artists try to snooker the readers on technical points.

If this is the case...then why not pull Spoor on taking a vid out of context...and even though the richard gage example was akward...why did you not take spoor to task on what was actually the point of the representation...

Taking a vid out of context is not the same as ginning up a half baked theory dependent on super-secret silent explosives or death rays of some sort.

Originally posted by samkent
Partially entertainment.
Partially to counter ignorance that could lead to a life filled with crazy beliefs. My family had many.
Partially to help prevent mentally unstable people from doing something stupid.

So as a 'debunker' you find it entertaining that you are obstructing people from finding the truth about 9/11?

Is it entertaining that many innocent people died during 9/11 and the wars that came after, which were carried out on the back of lies?

How do you know the OS is not a lie? Do you really think your government would not lies to you? They do have a history of telling lies.

So are you saying people who don't buy the OS are 'mentally unstable' that is silly claim, and the same could be said about OS'ers, but I wont go there. Baaaa

BTW, if you have concerns about people then why are you rude and nasty to them? Why don't you become a shrink, I'm sure there are plenty of OS hugging sheep you could 'help'.

Originally posted by Varemia

Originally posted by Six Sigma

Originally posted by thegameisup
Why do 'debunkers' devote so much time to defending the Official 9/11 story ??

I started off as a truther... (a very brief time) My questions brought me here. I found the answers I needed.

Why do I debunk 9/11 Conspiracies?

Because I don't want to see charlatans like Richard Gage attempt to rewrite history.

edit on 10-7-2012 by Six Sigma because: (no reason given)

This is somewhat parallel with me. I started off as the basic definition of a truther. I started to encounter conspiracy theorists on Youtube, and for the most part the arguments seemed to be nonsensical, but some of it made sense. I hadn't done any research into 9/11.

The real tipping point was when I first saw the video of WTC 7 collapsing. I had never even heard about it beforehand, and it made me an instant believer in the conspiracy. I couldn't think of any way it could be except demolition. Then, I did research on it, since if I was going to be a flag-bearer of the truth movement, I need to have all the facts. The more research I did, the more I realized I was being lied to by the truth movement.

The penthouse collapse was left out of the videos, which proves that the building was collapsing internally. The damage to the South side of the building was conveniently ignored, leaving out the reason for the way the building collapsed. The fire that burned for 7 hours, and the firefighters' testimonies were completely left out of the story or sugar-coated with "it was a minor fire, and they thought it would only collapse a little."

I realized then that the truth movement is just a bunch of people running around flailing with know idea what they're talking about. I'm a man of truth and of science, and I hate seeing people drowning in their own ignorance. So, I try to be the voice of reason and logic in a forum that thinks they are meant to simply accept conspiracies without question. I find it helps to correct mistruths and lies (even if the poster doesn't know it's a lie). Eventually, the general understanding is heightened, and the discussion is that much more evolved.

That's why I post. I believe everyone has the right to know the truth.

I don't buy that anyone started as a truther, people start out buying the OS that was sold to them, and then if they are not of the sheep mentality they eventually will see that the OS is a lie. It takes a while, but all 'truthers' once beleived the OS.

You comments are strange, it seems you are easily influenced by anything you hear, one minute you believe the OS, then you don't, then you do.

The more people research 9/11 the more they realise it's full of lies. How can you put your faith in the NIST report if they didn't do a thorough investigation, and fudge the data to fit their bioased story?

It seem you still have a lot to learn about 9/11, and need think for yourself instead of taking everything people say at face value. When you start thinking for yourself, then your research will your own.

Originally posted by Classified Info
The reason I post on here is very simple.....I'M GETTING PAID!!!

After the lay off things started getting pretty rough we could barely make ends meet. I saw an add in the local paper for "paid disinfo agents wanted" and,well, here I am. Go figure.

The pay is pretty good and the benefits, while not the best, are not all that bad. I get paid health insurance but they dont match me on my 401-K and that kind of sucks. But hey I can sit around the house all day in my skivies and sip whiskey. So0 I aint complaining.

If anybody is interested we are currently hiring. Drop me a PM and I can get an application to you.

edit on 7/11/2012 by Classified Info because: (no reason given)

At least you're honest, you're the only 'debunker' that will admit to what others already suspect!

Sounds like a soulless job.

Originally posted by DrEugeneFixer

Originally posted by DonJuan
Imagine there is no debunkers. A lurker comes to the forum and sees that everybody agree that OS is a lie. Conformity is a powerful thing.

Exactly... What many (not all) of the CT'ers on this board want is total conformity to the "conspiracy" angle on 9/11. That's why we have the constant accusations of being paid shills, brainwashed idiots, and unsympathetic fascists. Every couple weeks or so there is another thread just like this one, demanding that one side of the debate justify their reasons for even participating in the discussion.

In reality, without the debunker presence on ATS, the 9/11 forum goes one of 2 ways. The possible results are that either the board dies, because discussion of a foregone conclusion is boring, or the board descends into idiotic infighting between no-planers and everyone else.

If you want total conformity to your BS, just go to one of the boards on the internet that ban debunkers. If ATS was in the business of shutting down debate or free speech, I'd have been banned long ago. Maybe this forum just isn't the right place for you (NOT ASKING YOU TO LEAVE, JUST SAYIN')

Nice cherry picking there to make it appear than DonJuan said something to fit with the OS.

Here is what DonJuan really said:

Imagine there is no debunkers. A lurker comes to the forum and sees that everybody agree that OS is a lie. Conformity is a powerful thing. THEY need to make impression that the topic is still unclear, there are should be a lot of arguments. THEY cannot rely on volunteers. only My passion for the topic, for example, did not last that long and I just moved on, I see there is no reason to spend much time on a lost case. The same, I believe, is valid for someone who is eager to fight for the OS. Also, IMHO, the most people who believe in the OS just did not study the case and just blindly believe authorities. I have difficulties to imagine someone intelligent, who spent a lot of time studying 9/11 and still believing the OS...

I just don't understand why anyone who calls themselves a 'debunker' would be bothered about what is said on a conspiracy theory forum, unless they feel the contents are a threat.

Conspiracy theories may just be a theory to some, but in reality they sometime are actually very close to the truth, as is the case with 9/11.

This is just one of the places to discuss 9/11, no place is the 'right place' as you call it, and if everyone trusted their governments, and beleived the lies they continuously pump out, then there would not be forums like this.

Originally posted by pteridine
[You asked "Why do 'debunkers' devote so much time to defending the Official 9/11 story ??" I explained that I am not necessarily a debunker, per se, and that I follow the evidence and comment when the con artists try to snooker the readers on technical points. I do not defend any story. Perhaps your assumption that those who find fault with unsupported theories must be defenders of the undefined "official story" is incorrect. If only defenders of such an "official story" responded, your thead would be more sparse than it is now or even non-existent. Many people who show the faults of contrived and poorly thought out theories are not defending anything, they are merely showing the faults of contrived and poorly thought out theories. You should rethink your position, if you are able.
Apparently, you have trouble reading. I said "I don't believe anyone who sells CD's for the "cause." Their cause is cash for themselves from the good intentioned and gullible." They have a vested interest in keeping their pet theory alive. Liking or not liking is not part of it. They are in business to sell product. I used Gage as an example because either his knowledge of structural engineering is abysmally lacking or he is willing to say anything to keep the money flowing.
ATS is distinctly different from people like Gage. Gage profits from selling products. ATS profits indirectly from 911 conspiracy [and many other discussion topics]; they do not espouse one position or another and their profits are from the discussions between members. Mods have opinions but they are the opinions of individual Mods and not ATS.

edit on 7/12/2012 by pteridine because: (no reason given)

You are not making it clear what side of the fence you are on, I don't see you pulling up OS'ers omn some of their fabricated theories?

If the OS was as water tight as the 'debunkers' like to claim, then my thread or this forum both would not exist.

A lot of people that are considered as 'truthers' have done extensive research and found a lot of faults in the OS, and 'debunkers' try to normalise that research at every avaiable opportunity. So you are not giving credit, where credit is due.

As mentioned, anyone that sells a CD, is only really a few people out of millions that don't, so it's not even worth wasting any energy over. Most are just interested in finding the real truth, not the story presented to everyone by their government.

Gage, seems to be respected by many, but then he may think that you are not very credible either, horses for courses, as they say.

ATS, still profits, and if you disagree with profiting from conspiracy theories, including 9/11, then you should technically not be on this website.

Originally posted by samkent
reply to post by thegameisup

 

Richard Gage is not trying to rewrite history, he his trying to expose the lies in the OS

But you have to wonder why he doesn't publish peer reviewed papers that prove the building could not have collapsed due to planes and fire. He has the degrees. He has the plans. But all he does is sell dvds and give speeches. Both for money. Couldn't provide the world with proof positive and then write a best selling book?

It's these little things that keep me coming back.

I'm not interested in Richard Gage, and this thread is not about him, I'm interested in finding out what really happened on 9/11, and just because a government that has a reputation for lying tries to tell me what happened is the real version of 9/11 events, I'm within my rights to do my own research, and try to find out the real truth.

RG, is just one person out of millions that disbelieve the OS, and I'm happy to do my own research, and find out what really happened of my own accord.

Many other people have done great work, and to use RG in an attempt to discredit everyone else's research and work is not going to change the views of those that disbelieve the OS.

I encourage any 9/11 lurkers that believe what they saw on TV as truth, to at least spend some time researching the subject, and then come to your own conclusions.

Originally posted by plube
reply to post by spoor

 

I do love how debunkers use that vid...yet fail to see the point...RESISTANCE.....and...TIME.

but go ahead...because we could always do this.

you hear the term...resistance....most likely not did you....and have you bothered to watch the whole program...or did you just take out the out bit so that would do well in misrepresenting a point of view...whether it be correct or incorrect.

Do you see how you have done just exactly what truthers get accused of...way to go...so does this mean you to can get categorized.

Two things...You used YOUTUBE.....which truthers get accused of.
You took something out of context......Welcome truther.

Hahaha! this is a funny video! Richard is totally correct in what he is saying, the building would have fallen asymmetrically. I think those that believe the NIST report's version of WTC7 really have no understanding of building construction, and they just parrot each other. It seems 'debunking' is some cult, that the kids think it's cool to be part of. Sheeple in action.

Originally posted by pteridine

Taking a vid out of context is not the same as ginning up a half baked theory dependent on super-secret silent explosives or death rays of some sort.

I don't recall Richard Gage mentioning death rays! Maybe you've been watching too much star wars?!

He mentioned thermate, which is more plausible than the building coming down the way it did due to fires.

Anyway, this is about debunkers, not WTC7 etc.