A Challenge To Occupy Detractors: Watch and Let's Discuss

America Autumn: An Occudoc

For better quality, you can also watch it at Occudoc which has it in Vimeo. There is periodic strong language just to warn.

This movie is a view of the beginning phases of the movement through the eyes of film maker, I think it is a fairly well done representation of who we are and why we are.

My challenge is for those of you who enjoy slamming the movement, don't understand the movement, or think we have nothing legitimate to say... watch it... all of it (1:15:35) and post anything from the movie you would like to discuss or debate. Please do not drive-by post, if you're not going to watch, please don't clutter the thread.

...currently enjoying this hour plus film...

I've attended both Tea Party rallies and Occupy rallies.What 'they' want from the public is to not see the parallels of discontent with a broken, corrupted system. 'They" want us to think it's broken down on partisan lines. "They' want 'occupy' to be seen as the dirty socialist hippies and the tea party as angry racists. Anyone who says either of these things is the enemy.

reply to post by stanguilles7

"They' want 'occupy' to be seen as the dirty socialist hippies and the tea party as angry racists. Anyone who says either of these things is the enemy.

I couldn't agree more, very succinct there. It's important to acknowledge that while there is some common ground between the two, our solutions are very different. However, there is still a way for us to be united. Defending each others right to free speech... I believe that goes beyond the simple concept, though eloquently worded, "I may not like what you say, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it." By maligning one or allowing such, you allow it to happen to the other.

By not demanding integrity and truth from our politicians and media, we openly allow muddy waters... not truly knowing where anyone or any group stands. It may be fun to use that type of Jerry Springer mentality, but it's getting us backwards fast.

reply to post by Kali74


Worrying about what the 'detractors' have to say on the internet about Occupy is probably not worth the time, really. People project their own fears and assumptions on all kinds of political movements. On top of that, people are paid to pull discussions into false dichotomies and petty character assassinations.

If Occupy itself (or any kind of popular social movement i've been lucky enough to take part in or witness) gives me any hope, its that it reminds me of the amazing potential for everyday average people to step up to the plate and do what needs to get done, without any bull#, without any pretense. I've seen this in churches, in large protest groups, in occupy, in the tea party, in rainbow gatherings, in tailgate parties and football games, in all kinds of settings. So worrying about what sort of blatant and obvious dis and misinfo goes on on the internet (a fake community) is just not worth it. Social movements are about people on the ground, interacting with other people. The internet is a tool of information and communication. But real, eye to eye, heart to heart human connection is the fuel of the sense of inspiration and purpose. Wherever two or more are gathered. And I don't think that means social media.

Occupy and any other social movement will always have detractors. But what the movement itself actually builds, for the lng term, will be the ultimate response. In my opinion, if it can continue to build on a sustainable network of committed, talented individuals to help create the solutions we all want to the world we live in, then everyone benefits, and the petty partisan chatter that seeks to pigeon hole a group of hundreds of thousands as all being homogenous and supportive on one specific partisan political platform just looks as absurd and desperate and fearful as it actually is.

A scared lunatic, on the hill, screaming hysteria at those in the valley helping each other.

Originally posted by stanguilles7
...currently enjoying this hour plus film...

I've attended both Tea Party rallies and Occupy rallies.What 'they' want from the public is to not see the parallels of discontent with a broken, corrupted system. 'They" want us to think it's broken down on partisan lines. "They' want 'occupy' to be seen as the dirty socialist hippies and the tea party as angry racists. Anyone who says either of these things is the enemy.

CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is EXACTLY their tactic. You will see that being utilized on these boards quite often. It is TEXTBOOK DIVIDE TACTICS in action to keep things remaining UNFIXED with this country. Such folks are TRAITORS to our country. And they are here among us, watch out for them.

TRAITORS to America!!!!!!!! ENEMIES of the American People!!

First and foremost,

S&F

Great Job Kali !


Im ready to discuss a bit. I listened to the whole video, watched more then 3/4 of it. Many FINE points were made. Now for the things I thought stood out. Right at the beginning, where the presenter talks about Gordon Gekko. Its Ironic, to say the least, that the poor and the rich, both watch movies. Its art,and yes,their are those that take what they see, and believed it. Live it. I just don't see the movie studios giving back either. I don't see directors, opening up their posh homes, by the seasides, for those homeless either. I see actors playing their part, in protests,or playing their parts to stop world hunger,with a TV bit, but by no means are they giving the luxuries they have, to the many without. If equalization, is going to be met, those who have a soapbox, should put their money, where their supposed hearts are. When was the last time, you saw Oliver Stone's sleeping on the streets of New York, in solidarity of his supposed Satire ? Hes the Epiphany of it !

Another thing that got me was Healthcare. Look to Taiwan, for great healthcare. Why do they have great Healthcare ? Because their doctors work 12 hours a day. Taiwan went from having an uninsured population of 41 percent to 8 percent. Because DOCTORS are actually DOCTORS, and greed isn't part of the vocabulary.

Another thing that got me thinking was the whole part of what to call Occupy. IT DOES MATTER, what you call it. Yes, the World needs to change radically, but if you called it The National Socialist German Workers' Party, are you going to get the WORLD to stand up with you? I hardly think so.

In conclusion, their are lots of great points,Ironic Points,and a few good ideas, that could be implemented. The problem ? Apathy. The problem? Lack of Leadership. True Leadership.

Just my two cents...........

reply to post by sonnny1


Thanks Sonny.

I agree with you 100% about Hollywood. I do believe the world needs entertainment but not in the mind numbing sense we have now and certainly there are legit humanitarians among them but very few, most as you say... it's an act. I could respect an honest asshole far more than a fake giver.

As for the health care debate, the doctor in the film is not alone among her peers. Many American doctors and nurses (not sure the actual numbers) feel they are not actually practicing medicine, that they are maintaining a profit margin.

For profit health cannot work.

reply to post by Kali74


As long as their are perks, given to Doctors, by big pharma, and as long as they make $100 to $150 per patient visit, you will have the health care we have today. Even the socialized healthcare, that is being implemented, will fail........Greed just doesn't have to be Wall Street.

reply to post by sonnny1


Greed is universal indeed. However, what we have now, Obamacare, is not socialized...
it's corporatized.

Can you please summarize what the video is actually about? Okay, so it's a defense of OWS. Can you describe any of the points? An hour+ video is a large investment for a busy person. Especially considering, this thread is intended to be for the naysayers. Well, a naysayer is, through no fault of his/her own, not going to feel inclined to spend so much time on something they already instinctively disagree with. See my point?

I watched the first 10 minutes, and didn't see anything besides emotional manipulation, showing gentle people being rough-handled by thugs. Yeah it's wrong. But what does any of this have to do with OWS? I'm looking for explanations, not vague platitudes like "Shouldn't we live in a world where need is more important than greed?"

Just because you can accurately pinpoint a few major problems in the world, how does that translate into grouping together into a protest movement on a busy street or park block? Protesting is just one of many ways to elicite change. I think the OWS crowd are far too focused on public demonstrations than they are with figuring out how to actually make changes in the system. Protesting does NOTHING unless you have a massive movement, like 100,000 or more. It must be completely unmanagable by police forces. It must have absolute, highly specific set-in-stone demands. It must be totally uncompromising in those demands. OWS seems to be a collection of accusations, instead of a collection of demands. That's the main problem. You can't just diagnose something without any inkling of a practical solution. It was never thought through.

reply to post by Kali74



Its not Taiwanese healthcare, that's for sure........

Originally posted by Son of Will
Can you please summarize what the video is actually about? Okay, so it's a defense of OWS. Can you describe any of the points? An hour+ video is a large investment for a busy person. Especially considering, this thread is intended to be for the naysayers. Well, a naysayer is, through no fault of his/her own, not going to feel inclined to spend so much time on something they already instinctively disagree with. See my point?

I see your point; People with pre-determined opinions have no interest in having their minds changed.

I watched the first 10 minutes, and didn't see anything besides emotional manipulation, showing gentle people being rough-handled by thugs.

Really? That's all you saw? In the first ten minutes I see some detailed explanations of the intents and mechanisms behind occupy, mixed with various images from protests, some of which fi your description, many of which dont at all.

I think the OWS crowd are far too focused on public demonstrations than they are with figuring out how to actually make changes in the system.

That is a common complaint. But the reality is, Occupy is doing FAR more than just standing around 'protesting'. They are drafting legislation. They are lobbying politicians. This is what politics looks like.

Protesting does NOTHING unless you have a massive movement, like 100,000 or more.

Well, good thing occupy has far more than that across the country.

It must have absolute, highly specific set-in-stone demands.

Sez you.

OWS seems to be a collection of accusations, instead of a collection of demands.

And you base that on what you have already admitted is a superficial and prejudiced understanding of a complex movement

That's the main problem. You can't just diagnose something without any inkling of a practical solution. It was never thought through.

Again, there are some very specific demands out of OWS. Perhaps you should take the time to look into them a bit more instead of making vague complaints.

Originally posted by Son of Will
Can you please summarize what the video is actually about? Okay, so it's a defense of OWS. Can you describe any of the points? An hour+ video is a large investment for a busy person. Especially considering, this thread is intended to be for the naysayers. Well, a naysayer is, through no fault of his/her own, not going to feel inclined to spend so much time on something they already instinctively disagree with. See my point?

I watched the first 10 minutes, and didn't see anything besides emotional manipulation, showing gentle people being rough-handled by thugs. Yeah it's wrong. But what does any of this have to do with OWS? I'm looking for explanations, not vague platitudes like "Shouldn't we live in a world where need is more important than greed"

I would say it's pointless for anyone to do this for you, you've clearly made up your mind.

Do you leave the cinema within ten minutes if you get a "feeling" about how bad the movie is going to be?

I'm at ten minutes in, and it's so far done a great job of not only explaining Occupy, but explaining to people why it's important.

If anyone can get to ten minutes in and still think it's pointless, I;m just waiting for you to ask "what ARE the demands of Occupy!?!?!?"

Hence, you're probably wasting your time even reading this thread.

reply to post by sonnny1


Great snippet, thanks for sharing that. I'd like to read a little more about it before commenting specifically whether I think it's a good system. It certainly does seem to be working for them as Britain's health care works well for them at least for now.

reply to post by Son of Will

Originally posted by Kali74

This movie is a view of the beginning phases of the movement through the eyes of film maker, I think it is a fairly well done representation of who we are and why we are.

My challenge is for those of you who enjoy slamming the movement, don't understand the movement, or think we have nothing legitimate to say... watch it... all of it(1:15:35) and post anything from the movie you would like to discuss or debate. Please do not drive-by post, if you're not going to watch, please don't clutter the thread.

You are of course entitled to your opinion and to post as you please but I specifically challenged people to watch the whole movie or to please not comment.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by Son of Will

 

Originally posted by Kali74

This movie is a view of the beginning phases of the movement through the eyes of film maker, I think it is a fairly well done representation of who we are and why we are.

My challenge is for those of you who enjoy slamming the movement, don't understand the movement, or think we have nothing legitimate to say... watch it... all of it(1:15:35) and post anything from the movie you would like to discuss or debate. Please do not drive-by post, if you're not going to watch, please don't clutter the thread.

You are of course entitled to your opinion and to post as you please but I specifically challenged people to watch the whole movie or to please not comment.

I echo this sentiment. It's a fantastically made, informative film, if people are not willing to actually watch it and try to think about things, their input to any discussion will be nothing more than the usual trolling by people who have already made up their mind.

I would say it's pointless for anyone to do this for you, you've clearly made up your mind.

This is the kind of arrogance that I get EVERY time I try to engage in honest debate. Instead of just being cynical and confrontational, why is it so hard for you to actually read what I'm saying and respond to it?

I have my opinions. But where, in anything I've said, is it clear that I've made up my mind? Anyhow, isn't that what debating is all about? Changing people's minds? Exposing them to new information? That's what I'm challenging you to do. If my opinion is off-base, then SHOW ME HOW!

Don't just say sip your double-mocha frappuchino with a smug smile, saying "Oh, they will never understand." That's the kind of childish, condescending attitude that gets OWS a bad name to begin with.

Originally posted by Son of Will

I would say it's pointless for anyone to do this for you, you've clearly made up your mind.

This is the kind of arrogance that I get EVERY time I try to engage in honest debate. Instead of just being cynical and confrontational, why is it so hard for you to actually read what I'm saying and respond to it?

How is it "arrogant"? You're not trying to engage, you're asking others to tell you what the video is about, what the message is. Do you want to be told what to think, or do you want to watch it, learn some facts, hear some opinions and then engage in discussion?

Originally posted by Son of Will
sip your double-mocha frappuchino with a smug smile

Derailing partisan tactic. I'm just waiting for the "commie" comment. Don't bother to respond, I'm not debating with you. You're either going to invest an hour or not, you've stated you have no intention to. End of discussion

reply to post by stanguilles7

I see your point; People with pre-determined opinions have no interest in having their minds changed.

I watched the first 10 minutes, and didn't see anything besides emotional manipulation, showing gentle people being rough-handled by thugs.



Really? That's all you saw? In the first ten minutes I see some detailed explanations of the intents and mechanisms behind occupy, mixed with various images from protests, some of which fi your description, many of which dont at all.

I think the OWS crowd are far too focused on public demonstrations than they are with figuring out how to actually make changes in the system.



That is a common complaint. But the reality is, Occupy is doing FAR more than just standing around 'protesting'. They are drafting legislation. They are lobbying politicians. This is what politics looks like.

Protesting does NOTHING unless you have a massive movement, like 100,000 or more.



Well, good thing occupy has far more than that across the country.

It must have absolute, highly specific set-in-stone demands.



Sez you.

OWS seems to be a collection of accusations, instead of a collection of demands.



And you base that on what you have already admitted is a superficial and prejudiced understanding of a complex movement

That's the main problem. You can't just diagnose something without any inkling of a practical solution. It was never thought through.



Again, there are some very specific demands out of OWS. Perhaps you should take the time to look into them a bit more instead of making vague complaints.

Pre-determined opinions? Is that a fancy way of saying that I hold an opinion on a certain subject? Okay, you got me. I indeed, do, have an opinion on this subject. That's the point of debating - so that opinions can change and evolve. Get it?

There is no detail at all the first 10 minutes. That's why I referred to it as "vague platitudes". You're intentionally misrepresenting something to reinforce your point.

Lobbying politicians. Drafting legislation. Okay, now you're getting closer to answering my comment. So far you've just taken the opportunity to slam me with childish ad-hominem attacks. Is this covered in the video? I'd like to see that part.

And even if OWS has over 100,000 across the country, which is only true if you count all of the people who show up for a few hours during the major events, it's still spread out over several cities and not concentrated in one place.

"sez you" - No, says history. Protests simply don't do anything unless they overwhelm a state's ability to manage them. OWS hasn't even come close to getting a movement that large yet. Until they do, it's just a public demonstration that, at best, acts as a small 'campaign of awareness'.

My understanding of OWS is neither superficial nor prejudiced. Insulting me isn't going to make your hateful sentiments any more true. If you can't debate a simple issue without launching ad hominem attacks, maybe you're not the best person to be arguing on behalf of OWS. Just saying.

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by Son of Will

I would say it's pointless for anyone to do this for you, you've clearly made up your mind.

This is the kind of arrogance that I get EVERY time I try to engage in honest debate. Instead of just being cynical and confrontational, why is it so hard for you to actually read what I'm saying and respond to it?

How is it "arrogant"? You're not trying to engage, you're asking others to tell you what the video is about, what the message is. Do you want to be told what to think, or do you want to watch it, learn some facts, hear some opinions and then engage in discussion?

Originally posted by Son of Will
sip your double-mocha frappuchino with a smug smile

Derailing partisan tactic. I'm just waiting for the "commie" comment. Don't bother to respond, I'm not debating with you. You're either going to invest an hour or not, you've stated you have no intention to. End of discussion

edit on 8-7-2012 by detachedindividual because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-7-2012 by detachedindividual because: (no reason given)

OF COURSE I'm trying to engage! That's why I commented here in the first place. I'm actually shocked by your response. The thread is about engaging naysayers. I'm a naysayer, I listed my problems with the movement, and what do I get for it? Abuse and insults? People like you, putting words into my mouth, and then responding to those false words?

THAT is just insane. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to learn how to *honestly* receive and process criticism, and respond with accurate and relevant points.