Big Bang - Where's the hole?

Originally posted by wirehead
reply to post by LifeInDeath

 

Someone should have posted that video back on page 1 and saved everyone the trouble!

Yeah. It struck me as I was suggesting trying the thought experiment himself that I'd seen Michio Kaku, or somebody doing it on a Science Channel or Nova documentary somewhere and figured there had to be something like it on YouTube.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by CLPrime

 

"By saying that the universe has an edge, then we arrive at the "well, what's on the outside?" issue."


also about this..,.,,.., even if the universe was infinitely expanding in every direction,,, there would still be edges..... are you saying energy itself is infinite and if were to travel any/every direction and distance for 9345993495643963442^338058943534534530845 light years at 324793242 times the speed of light we would never reach the farthest edges of the universe,,,,,, even if those edges are always traveling outwards,,, and the light from those edges are traveling further and faster outwards....... there would still be those closest to edge no?

edit on 6-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

YOU ARE ENERGY.....how can you travel beyond a boundary where energy doesnt exist??? HUH? HUH?


Let me put it this way...when you dream can you travel to a boundary where there is no more dream? no you cant because no matter where you look you will always find something. Consciousness creates reality.

Originally posted by wirehead

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by wirehead

 

ok so is the physical universe made up of galaxies? could you say these galaxies are in,, for lack of a better word rows and columns? distances apart, taking up space left right up down backward forward ? and these galaxies are always moving greater distances apart from one another at all times ?

is your only problem with what i am saying the fact that the material universe is always expanding so there is no exact and lasting center point?

what if there was a computer outside the universe that can plot the exact center of the material universe in regards to the entire shape of the universe and this computer refreshed every plancks length of time?

are you also saying by there being know space separating the material that left the singularity in one direction from the material that left the singularity in the complete opposite direction,,, that since the singularity all material has been equal distances apart from each other and expanding at an equal rate from one another,, and this is why there is no central space?

Well, you're on the right track. Given the model you propose (galaxies in a grid), try to wind the clock back and find the center point where it's all expanding from.

When everything condenses down to a point, that "center point" is located at a specific time.

Furthermore, since every galaxy in our model has now condensed to that point, it's essentially everywhere. Any given galaxy in any given row and column will have been at that point at that time. That's the "center" from which everything is expanding.

i am working with the idea that everything started from the same point,.,.,..,. now that some time has passed what is the imagined shape of the universe? if that shape could be drawn in a moment of .... right now...... if we could pause the universe..,,.. and draw a shape out of it there would be edges..,.,.,.,.,.,your saying there wouldnt be a middle?

I understand that you are saying that all energy moved in all directions away from all energy starting from a singularity point,,,,, you are saying in time the theorized hot dense early stages of big bang,,, was all the universe was at that time,,,, and all the energy in existence in its form now,,, was present at that early stage,,, and it was all attached to the point of singularity,,,, so its not like "something" propelled or shot or geysered out energy in all directions from a point,,, it is like energy separated or expanded from it self at all points,, during the earliest stages, and still now,...,,.,,. if that is correct,..,,.,.,.., this is where i say in those earlier stages there was hardly space between energy,,,,, now there is vast expanses of space .,,.,.,.,., so if energy expanded in all directions wouldn't it have expanded itself in all directions by now far away from its origin? and wouldnt the energy at the edges be further then the energy that expanded after the edge energy expanded,,,? and wouldnt that last separating expansion energy to be sent in all directions leave behind it a space?

I know towards the end i got messy,,,,,,

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by CLPrime

 

"By saying that the universe has an edge, then we arrive at the "well, what's on the outside?" issue."


also about this..,.,,.., even if the universe was infinitely expanding in every direction,,, there would still be edges..... are you saying energy itself is infinite and if were to travel any/every direction and distance for 9345993495643963442^338058943534534530845 light years at 324793242 times the speed of light we would never reach the farthest edges of the universe,,,,,, even if those edges are always traveling outwards,,, and the light from those edges are traveling further and faster outwards....... there would still be those closest to edge no?

edit on 6-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

YOU ARE ENERGY.....how can you travel beyond a boundary where energy doesnt exist??? HUH? HUH?


Let me put it this way...when you dream can you travel to a boundary where there is no more dream? no you cant because no matter where you look you will always find something. Consciousness creates reality.

edit on 6-7-2012 by TiM3LoRd because: (no reason given)

YOU ARE AN IDIOT........ I was speaking hypothetically,..,.,.,,. just because i cant travel somewhere doesnt mean that somewhere doesnt exist...

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by LifeInDeath

 

But the Universe isn't "pulling from the center," the Universe is pulling in all directions at once. Every part of it is pulling away from every other part of it. The Big Rip is a theory about the eventual fate of the Universe where as space expands faster and faster, the expansion starts to overcome even the forces holding matter together and even the atoms and sub-atomic particles that make up the matter in the Universe can no longer overcome it and are ripped apart, not from one point at the center, but every point in the Universe this pulls apart from every other point.

Do you really buy this concept? I have a hard time with it. Again, I know physicists are smart, but, an expansion so powerful it will actually pull all matter apart? Wouldn't they be able to detect an increase in (let's call it) pressure in outer space?

This is one of several theories about the eventual fate of the Universe. Not all physicists agree with it, but I do believe it is currently by far the most popular theory.

Do I agree with it? Well, based on all my readings of this stuff I think that it's probably how things will go, but I understand the jury is still out on this one to some extent. It makes me a bit uncomfortable to contemplate all of existence ripping itself apart, but since it probably won't happen for something like hundreds of trillions, if not quadrillions of years from now, I'm not really losing much sleep over it.

A little more heartening, is the idea that's been proposed that once the Universe reaches this state it will be essentially indistinguishable from the Universe at the moment of the Big Bang, which means it could well start all over again. It's a cool idea at least.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
i am working with the idea that everything started from the same point,.,.,..,. now that some time has passed what is the imagined shape of the universe? if that shape could be drawn in a moment of .... right now...... if we could pause the universe..,,.. and draw a shape out of it there would be edges..,.,.,.,.,.,your saying there wouldnt be a middle?

There wouldn't necessarily be edges. And the "middle" would be wherever you are in the universe- that's relativity!

I understand that you are saying that all energy moved in all directions away from all energy starting from a singularity point,,,,, you are saying in time the theorized hot dense early stages of big bang,,, was all the universe was at that time,,,, and all the energy in existence in its form now,,, was present at that early stage,,, and it was all attached to the point of singularity,,,, so its not like "something" propelled or shot or geysered out energy in all directions from a point,,, it is like energy separated or expanded from it self at all points,, during the earliest stages, and still now,...,,.,,. if that is correct,..,,.,.,.., this is where i say in those earlier stages there was hardly space between energy,,,,, now there is vast expanses of space .,,.,.,.,.,

Yes!

so if energy expanded in all directions wouldn't it have expanded itself in all directions by now far away from its origin? and wouldnt the energy at the edges be further then the energy that expanded after the edge energy expanded,,,? and wouldnt that last separating expansion energy to be sent in all directions leave behind it a space?

When you talk about the energy / matter at "the edges"... What are they further from?
Where is the edge on a globe?

If you blow up a balloon that has galaxies drawn on it, how can you say which galaxy is "further from the center" and which galaxy is "closer"?

At most you can pick a galaxy and say, "I'm standing here in this galaxy" and then there will be galaxies far away from that one that are receding the fastest.

Pick any other galaxy and now the ones near the "edge" of what you can see are different galaxies, but still receding the fastest from that vantage point.

Consider only space and time with no particles or energy contained within. These are infinite structures of either pure kinetic (time) or pure static (space). There is a narrow bandpass of transition existence where both space and time co-exist. That's the region where the violent distortions caused by that conversion process results in the contents of our Universe.

All the future radiates down and inward from everywhere, towards everywhere, originating at the infinite expanse (the infinite dimension of height). The destination of this flood of time current is to reach the one infinitely kinetic, infinitesimal Singularity (the infinite dimension of depth). It is the generation of the infinite dimension of width caused by the impact of time current on to the infinite null (caused by the collective "flight path" of the Singularity of where it is NOT), that stops time (current), generates "the present" as well as the spatial dimension of width that is for us to consider.

There never was a "big bang" Yet there is a constant roar of time impacting the null and exploding into space, only to reach the purity of 100% space and no longer have any time characteristics, causing implosion kinetic which becomes all the past.

Very, very violent, space and time, just to co-exist all to make "the present" and our narrow bandpass of existence where BOTH space and time are together in transition, all so finite can exist dwelling amongst everything else infinite.

It never began, it cannot end, it cannot change. Only finite can change. Why we are so special and are proxies for that particular consciousness absorption by omniscience. All are tools, all are used, whether you are aware of the communion or not, or want it or not.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jiggerj

 

You're just jealous because the energy is so much more awesome than you...

Ugh, I wish I had some. So tired lately. But I enjoyed your comment.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by CLPrime

 

"By saying that the universe has an edge, then we arrive at the "well, what's on the outside?" issue."


also about this..,.,,.., even if the universe was infinitely expanding in every direction,,, there would still be edges..... are you saying energy itself is infinite and if were to travel any/every direction and distance for 9345993495643963442^338058943534534530845 light years at 324793242 times the speed of light we would never reach the farthest edges of the universe,,,,,, even if those edges are always traveling outwards,,, and the light from those edges are traveling further and faster outwards....... there would still be those closest to edge no?

edit on 6-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

YOU ARE ENERGY.....how can you travel beyond a boundary where energy doesnt exist??? HUH? HUH?


Let me put it this way...when you dream can you travel to a boundary where there is no more dream? no you cant because no matter where you look you will always find something. Consciousness creates reality.

edit on 6-7-2012 by TiM3LoRd because: (no reason given)

YOU ARE AN IDIOT........ I was speaking hypothetically,..,.,.,,. just because i cant travel somewhere doesnt mean that somewhere doesnt exist...

Thats exactly what it means Einstein. Reality is based on perception that includes viewing it. If we cant see it then it doesnt exist that includes instruments we create to view reality. If you believe in things that dont exist you are the idiot lol.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
say there are 10 light years of space between 2 galaxies....

how does the distance of 10 light years increase,,, without the galaxies moving?

Space is curvy, and it's always expanding.

Light follows the curves, like a golf ball follows the rises and dips of a green.

Two galaxies are 10 light years apart. The space between them is always expanding - always adding more curves.

So, although it seems the galaxies don't "move", the distance the light must travel between them increases.

So, what was 10 light years becomes 11. Add some more curves, it becomes 12... and so on.

reply to post by wirehead



"When you talk about the energy / matter at "the edges"... What are they further from?"

if the edge can be traced around the entire universe at a stopped moment in time creating a 3 dimensional shape, the edge would be furtherest from its opposite edge at every point along the edge,, drawing a line across the universe from each of these points would give you an intersecting middle....


"Where is the edge on a globe?"
the surface... equally further from the center of the globe...

"If you blow up a balloon that has galaxies drawn on it, how can you say which galaxy is "further from the center" and which galaxy is "closer"? "

that analogy is not accurate to reality,, the space inside the balloon would be the hole the big bang left behind im talking about,.,.,.,.,. galaxies dont exist on a 2 d surface,,,, how would you explain the galaxies across through the balloon on the other side,,,,, in reality there are galaxies beyond the surface of the balloon,, and filling the inside of the balloon,,, lets say that the galaxies on the surface of the balloon are the last quantites of energy to expand from the singularity and outside the balloon is trillions of more galaxies,,,,, inside the balloon would be the massive space left over,..,.

Originally posted by LifeInDeath

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by LifeInDeath
the Universe isn't "pulling from the center," the Universe is pulling in all directions at once. Every part of it is pulling away from every other part of it.

Say it ain't so! lol

I thought all the galaxies were moving further and further away from each other in one direction, outward? If the dark energy is filling in the space between galaxies from all directions, then the galaxies wouldn't be moving at all. Example: The space between two galaxies is filling in, pushing them away from each other. But wait! The space between one of those galaxies and the NEXT galaxy is also filling in, pushing back against the force between the first two galaxies. I dunno.

First, not ALL galaxies, but most galaxies are moving away from us. Andromeda, our closest galactic neighbor will collide with us in about 4 or 5 billion years, that is due to gravity pulling us together. This is how galactic clusters and superclusters form. You can have dozens, hundreds and even thousands of galaxies getting closer to each other in this way, but when you compare that to the billions of galaxies that are moving away from us it's a drop in the bucket.

From our point of view, these billions of galaxies are moving away from us. From the point of view of an observer in one of those billions of galaxies, the very same would be true. From everybody's point of view in the Universe, most other galaxies are moving away from them. There's no "outward," even if it might appear that way.

The dark energy isn't "filling in space" between the galaxies, it is expanding/stretching the space that's already there. Again, there's no "push," as I explained earlier, the space is just getting more spread out.

At this point I'm thinking maybe you are just having a really hard time visualizing these things that we've tried describing in words.

I understand it just fine. It's people like you that get bogged down in trying to clarify when people say the galaxies are moving away from each other. You always come back with 'Oh no, the galaxies aren't moving away from each other, it's the space stretching between those galaxies.'

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by CLPrime

 

"By saying that the universe has an edge, then we arrive at the "well, what's on the outside?" issue."


also about this..,.,,.., even if the universe was infinitely expanding in every direction,,, there would still be edges..... are you saying energy itself is infinite and if were to travel any/every direction and distance for 9345993495643963442^338058943534534530845 light years at 324793242 times the speed of light we would never reach the farthest edges of the universe,,,,,, even if those edges are always traveling outwards,,, and the light from those edges are traveling further and faster outwards....... there would still be those closest to edge no?

edit on 6-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

YOU ARE ENERGY.....how can you travel beyond a boundary where energy doesnt exist??? HUH? HUH?


Let me put it this way...when you dream can you travel to a boundary where there is no more dream? no you cant because no matter where you look you will always find something. Consciousness creates reality.

edit on 6-7-2012 by TiM3LoRd because: (no reason given)

YOU ARE AN IDIOT........ I was speaking hypothetically,..,.,.,,. just because i cant travel somewhere doesnt mean that somewhere doesnt exist...

Thats exactly what it means Einstein. Reality is based on perception that includes viewing it. If we cant see it then it doesnt exist that includes instruments we create to view reality. If you believe in things that dont exist you are the idiot lol.

so when you were a baby and your mom played peek a boo with you,,, every time she covered your eyes she would cease to exist?

Originally posted by FOXMULDER147

Originally posted by ImaFungi
say there are 10 light years of space between 2 galaxies....

how does the distance of 10 light years increase,,, without the galaxies moving?

Space is curvy, and it's always expanding.

Light follows the curves, like a golf ball follows the rises and dips of a green.

Two galaxies are 10 light years apart. The space between them is always expanding - always adding more curves.

So, although it seems the galaxies don't "move", the distance the light must travel between them increases.

So, what was 10 light years becomes 11. Add some more curves, it becomes 12... and so on.

then by definition the distance isnt changing.... its only taking light more time,.,,...,,.

if we are standing 10 feet apart,,,,,,, and one time i throw you a baseball and it takes 5 seconds to get too you

we are still standing 10 feet apart,,,,, and i throw you a baseball but its windy now,,, and it takes 7 seconds to get to you,,,,, did our distance increase?


ok i dont think you were talking about that,,, i think i see what your saying.,,..,.,. and it is theorized that these waves in space are caused by a number of things? probably including the gravity of massive objects,, also the motion and rotation of these objects.

reply to post by TiM3LoRd

quote
"includes instruments we create to view reality"
unquote

do u mean eyeballs???

reply to post by ImaFungi


He's using the surface of the balloon as a 2D analog for the 3D universe. The entire 3D balloon/sphere doesn't represent our 3D universe...just the 2D surface does.

Technically, what you would have is a sort of hypersphere - a 4D sphere. In the case of a hypersphere, its surface is 3-dimensional. The spherical curvature is in a 4th dimension. The entire 3D universe is contained within the surface.

With the balloon, what we're doing is ignoring one of the universe's dimensions because 4-dimensional objects are pretty near impossible to visualize. So, picturing our universe as a 2D surface, the balloon analogy has that surface wrapped around a spherical volume. That surface is the universe, and it expands (the sphere grows). But the surface of the sphere has no center.

Remember, the inside center of the sphere doesn't count...that's not a physical part of the universe (technically, it would represent the temporal dimension, where the center is the Big Bang...hence, the only "center" to the universe is at the time of the Big Bang).

Originally posted by jiggerj

As for the balloon: put all the dots you want on it while it's completely deflated, then blow up the balloon and show me how even ONE of those dots covered the hole you used to inflate it.

There is no "hole" used to inflate the universe. In that sense, the balloon isn't being inflated by blowing air into it...it's a solid sphere of rubber (no hole) and it's being inflated by a force in the rubber itself.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

He's using the surface of the balloon as a 2D analog for the 3D universe. The entire 3D balloon/sphere doesn't represent our 3D universe...just the 2D surface does.

Technically, what you would have is a sort of hypersphere - a 4D sphere. In the case of a hypersphere, its surface is 3-dimensional. The spherical curvature is in a 4th dimension. The entire 3D universe is contained within the surface.

With the balloon, what we're doing is ignoring one of the universe's dimensions because 4-dimensional objects are pretty near impossible to visualize. So, picturing our universe as a 2D surface, the balloon analogy has that surface wrapped around a spherical volume. That surface is the universe, and it expands (the sphere grows). But the surface of the sphere has no center.

Remember, the inside center of the sphere doesn't count...that's not a physical part of the universe (technically, it would represent the temporal dimension, where the center is the Big Bang...hence, the only "center" to the universe is at the time of the Big Bang).

I understood the balloon analagy the first time i heard it,,, i understood what you guys are getting at,,,,,, i dont understand how the universe can be physically related to the balloon,,,, or when you say the entire 3d universe is contained within a surface,,,,

so the physical universe is a sphere with no edges? no dimensions? no depth.... no size.......

I guess like a lot of people, I have thought about this and have formed some ideas that help me sleep a little easier...

Instead of a big bang, maybe matter always existed, but was invisible, as if it never existed, since no temporal dimension was present that would allow light waves to move, subsequently rendering the matter impossible to detect or be measured.

Maybe Space was always there, but no time dimension. Matter could have existed in space, but would have been unmeasurable due to the lack of time.

Space may exist in an infinite capacity, where matter existed as well. Some how, the temporal dimension collided with space/matter and allowed all this to change.

With the capacity to be measured, maybe the once undetectable mass of matter exploded outwards into space. In this idea of mine it may be that space is not expanding outward, carrying matter with it, but maybe it is time that is exploding and expanding outward, allowing matter to reach areas where it had previously been impossible to reach.

Matter may have existed as many scientists believe, as a incredibly dense point. It could have existed in this state without the dimension of time. Without time being present there would be no need for any massive force to hold matter into such a dense single point. Matter would exist as unmeasurable and would be invisible to any attempt to look at or measure it. Without time as a parameter to conduct measurements, there would be nothing to measure.

The collision of the temporal dimension with the space and matter dimension would allow matter to instantly become measurable. It would seem to appear from out of no where.

Because time renders the matter measurable, it also creates the possibility that an enormous force be required to continue holding matter into this singular point.

Since there was no force present to hold matter in it's form, the dimensional collision caused a massive explosion of all matter outwards, from the point where the dimension of time first contact the matter.

As the dimension of time spreads out through space, where no time previously existed, matter also enters this area, as it continues on it's trajectory.

There are a lot of implications with my idea one and I can share some more of my opinions about it if you want, but for now, I won't bore you further. I just wanted to share a little food for thought, regardless of accuracy, etc.