Real ID & that Little Gold Star on Your Driver’s License

reply to post by Bedlam

Thanks again. I guess it is still mostly hype? Maybe you could help with one problem I am having with this: the size of the antenna in the RFID chips appears to be at least as big as a cell phone. So range is only centimeters?

RFID tags in stores like the new Safeway they just built-in my neighborhood have 20 foot range to be recorded by all these little black domes on the walls and even at the entrance ways. (They have big and little black domes. The overhead ones are cameras, the little ones on the walls re RFID readers) Why are they there if their range is so short? Any explanation for this is appreciated.

And you are right. One day we will be monitored all_day_long. When you walk out your door to go to work in the morning, your cell phone is in your pocket. It is probably "on". The Lo Jack or "On Star" in your car is active. Traffic Cams watch you drive all over town as you stop to get gas and pay at the pump. GPS is used to triangulate your position to find Day Care. Goto work (where you are monitored) and then go to the store on the way home where your purchases are totaled under your name, date and time. Then at last you are home watching Cable thru a little box on the TV which records the shows you watch. And smart monitoring of PGE electric and gas knows when your hot water is running and the lights are on.

Throw in Bio-Metrics, facial recognition software and your very moods are discerned. The future is RFID in every thing you buy and every where it goes from clothing to electronics, etc. What a world ...

Just remember they have your best interests at heart.

whats the big problem with a chip in your ID card? Be happy that # isnt actually under your skin!

Privacy Impact Assessment for the
REAL ID Final Rule January 11, 2008

Originally posted by intrptr

Maybe you could help with one problem I am having with this: the size of the antenna in the RFID chips appears to be at least as big as a cell phone. So range is only centimeters?

Most of the time the antenna structures are quite large, comparatively.

It goes to how the parts work - somewhat excluding real task specific stuff like telemetry or radar transponders, you've got active and passive RFID, and in those e-field and h-field, which gives you four types. Mostly what you see out and about are passive e-field, passive h-field, and active e-field. There aren't a lot of active e-field, and I've never actually seen an active h-field although it would be easy to do. There are a few things that straddle the line that are semi-active but that's usually for large-scale stock management in warehouses. Only active e-field parts "transmit" anything at all. So all this hooha where you see people waving antennas around people and supposedly seeing emissions is bogus - neither passive part ever transmits, and for the most part you only see h-field parts in implants, and they don't use radio waves.

Passive h-field is close close range by nature - generally about 10cm max, but it provides a lot more power to the part, so that's used for RFID parts that are more complex, like the ones in passports and credit cards. Those are actually pretty advanced little 32 bit micros, at least for the most part. You also see passive h-field used in implants, because it's not radio, it's magnetic fields. H-fields penetrate your body without loss, more or less, so that's what's used in things like dog implants. With h-field you can cheat the antenna size since it's not really a radio wave you're working with, so you can make quite small antennas at the cost of range. The copper looking part of a dog implant is a small coil around a ferrite bar, serving as an "antenna", although it's more the other side of a really gapped air-core transformer. Since h-field (you also hear it called NFC) doesn't propagate, you can't pick it up with another coil more than about a wavelength away.

Passive e-field actually does use radio waves, but doesn't transmit them. The majority of the tags you see in a grocery store are passive e-field. These receive radio waves from an interrogator, convert them to a tiny amount of power (microwatts, generally), and use it to power a very simple circuit. You generally only see this type send back a fixed serial number. This is what's in EDL and PASS. The part does not actually send out radio signals in reply. Instead, it varies the card's radar reflectivity by throwing a load onto and off of the antenna. The interrogator looks for its own signal bouncing back from the card, like a very simple radar. Think of it like one of those signaling mirrors people use to blink morse code to planes. Since it's basically a radar, these are governed by the radar equation. This means that you have to have a fairly nice antenna - it needs to be on the order of the wavelength of the frequency used, so most e-field parts are pretty high frequency to get the antenna size down. It also needs to be laid out flat, because there's an aperture term in the equation related to sensitivity. Also, the more power the circuit draws, the less "contrast ratio" between mark states, which cuts down your read range, so you can't have much of a circuit on there. This is what's funny when someone comes out with a small passive e-field part and everyone gets all angsty about being injected with it - not only is it not going to work inside you due to being a microwave frequency e-field part (won't go through your skin very well) but it's also lacking the antenna structure that's attached to it when you use it. Being small saves money. That's why they make them small. It still has to have an antenna. You sometimes make the antenna unnaturally small on purpose, to limit the range. You might do that on a package of something so that it only responds within a few cm at the checkout. The Hitachi part you often see horrifying people is that way - it can't do ALOHA to simplify things (cheaper) so they limit the range to an inch or so and use it at the checkout in lieu of a barcode.

Anyway, being e-field, passive e-field does use radio. So you can often pick them up, depending on antenna design mostly, up to maybe 10-30 feet from the interrogator. The bigger the range, the nastier things get, because you have to sort between more and more parts in range. The scan time for them all goes up very quickly for small increases in floor area, so you have a lot of interrogators. The algorithm most parts use to resolve collisions is called ALOHA.

There are also active e-field scanners I've seen keeping track of pallets, these have batteries in. The interrogators often look like small cameras - little black hockey puck looking things.

reply to post by Bedlam


Very interesting ! So h field is what they use in the Verichip and it's range is about what 10 cm ? In passive your saying it has to be interrogated by a magnetic flux field to power up and the signal is below the Radio frequency .

Originally posted by intrptr
Goto work (where you are monitored) and then go to the store on the way home where your purchases are totaled under your name, date and time

Ok, here's some paranoia feed. Long long ago, we did a prototype of a gadget that attached to the checkout registers in stores. It looked at what you bought, and tried to determine who you were from facial scans and your payment - if it was a check or debit card, we had you. We came up with "loyalty cards", I think some of the other bidders did as well, to try to ID the ones that were using cash.

The idea was to see what you bought and when, where, and how much of it. There is a lot of metadata in there.

It was sold to us as a tool for direct marketing to customers, if you bought Pepsi, they'd send you Coke coupons and targeted ads to your internet to lure you to try Coke. If you quit buying Pepsi, they could send you "come home to Pepsi" ads and the like.

However, given who we were doing it for, it had other stuff like - if you suddenly started buying kibbee and tahini, then maybe you had got a visitor. If you used your loyalty card in Cucamonga, well, we knew you weren't at home, and could often sort out which person in the household wasn't there anymore. Given that we had good relationship graphs, if you knew person x and suddenly your grocery habits looked like person x + you, then likely person x was at your domicile. Suddenly change your purchases totally, and do that a lot, and it's probably a false identity used by multiple people.

Those loyalty cards you see everywhere - the store gets paid for that information, that's why they give you the discounts. Did you ever wonder why they gave you a cut on things with a loyalty card? That's it. You're getting a cut of the money paid to them to associate your ID with that purchase.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Very interesting ! So h field is what they use in the Verichip and it's range is about what 10 cm ? In passive your saying it has to be interrogated by a magnetic flux field to power up and the signal is below the Radio frequency .

It never emits a signal at all. It's actually low radio frequency, but it's not radio.

The interrogator applies a time-varying magnetic field in the 125-135kHz range (there's maybe three frequencies they use). The part rectifies some of it and stores it for power (only a fraction of a second worth). It signals back to the interrogator by pulsing a load onto and off of the coil.

The interrogator sees this load as an impedance change, or a small increase in drive current to the interrogator coil.

Think of it as pushing a car, and the guy inside the car is signaling to you by tapping on the brakes.

reply to post by Bedlam


So the RFID chip reflects an inductance change on the interrogator coil which is read by the interrogator as a variation in the load . So it would be hard to track the chip or to read it from any distance . Supposedly the princein England and our troops have tracking chips implanted . How would that work?

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by Bedlam

 

So the RFID chip reflects an inductance change on the interrogator coil which is read by the interrogator as a variation in the load . So it would be hard to track the chip or to read it from any distance . Supposedly the princein England and our troops have tracking chips implanted . How would that work?

I think the key word here is "supposedly".

None of the passive methods would work for "tracking" in the sense of something you can do at a distance.

Any active method would require something quite large physically, on the order of something like a pacemaker, and even then you'd have to recharge yourself periodically. You aren't a very good container for an active radio emitter, as you're a bag of conductive electrolytes. It tends to cause impedance mismatches and it's very dissipative.

When I payed for my license the clerk asked if I wanted it laminated, and that would cost an extra $20 dollars! I asked what was that for, she said it was for identification purposes, now I use my laminated license to enter the USA when ever I return from a different country, My laminated license was issued in 2010! I saw the border patrol agent slide my license into a reader that illuminated the lamination on my license and the the information was read by the same machine! I've never had any issues entering the country at any time! Im not saying this is a good thing im just conveying information to you!

reply to post by Bedlam


On the subject of tracking devices , have you noticed the various tracking devices along the highways that are not cameras ? Side scan radar and possibly magnetometers and quite possibly Bluetooth devices that communicate with your vehicle autonomously . Not to omit the coils within the road bed .

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by Bedlam

 

On the subject of tracking devices , have you noticed the various tracking devices along the highways that are not cameras ? Side scan radar and possibly magnetometers and quite possibly Bluetooth devices that communicate with your vehicle autonomously . Not to omit the coils within the road bed .

I've seen some odd-ball antenna structures near the road that made me scratch my head, but I'm usually driving and don't have time/interest to stop and get photos.

A BT antenna wouldn't need to be noticeable. You can get into the mics/speakers of almost any bt equipped car with the right gear though, I can tell you that up front.

reply to post by Bedlam

Thank you for that in-depth technical breakdown for the types of "tags" and "readers". I finally begin to understand a little about the E an H field types. That the "interrogator" actually provides the power to activate the circuit was the part hanging me up.

Passive e-field actually does use radio waves, but doesn't transmit them. The majority of the tags you see in a grocery store are passive e-field. These receive radio waves from an interrogator, convert them to a tiny amount of power (microwatts, generally), and use it to power a very simple circuit.

And I get the bit about antenna size and wavelength distance to reader. You obviously know what you are talking about. Thanks again.

reply to post by Bedlam

Those loyalty cards you see everywhere - the store gets paid for that information, that's why they give you the discounts. Did you ever wonder why they gave you a cut on things with a loyalty card? That's it. You're getting a cut of the money paid to them to associate your ID with that purchase.

You mean my "Safeway card"? I use my moms home phone number from her card at the register, but don't carry her card with me. I see that will be a problem in the future. Dig the discounts, don't want that familiarity of them selling my data about what stuff I buy. So far, I am under the radar on that one.

I imagine that the number of cards we need to carry i.e., ID, Debit, Credit, Passport, etc. will slowly shrink to just one. Right? The Gold Star ID as Driver license and boarding pass is one such combination I guess?

Ever see the movie "Fifth Element"? In your learned best estimate, how long you figure before we say, "Lelu Dallas... Multipass"?

Thanks again for taking the time to help others on here with your knowledge. I know how redundant you have to be and I really do respect your patience.

reply to post by SimonPeter

On the subject of tracking devices , have you noticed the various tracking devices along the highways that are not cameras ? Side scan radar and possibly magnetometers and quite possibly Bluetooth devices that communicate with your vehicle autonomously . Not to omit the coils within the road bed .

In my hometown they are have been installing some kind of "sensors" in the sidewalk corner at each intersection. They tear up the whole curb and Handicap ramp, including a portion of curb that extends down the road. We were told it was some upgrade and "experimental", but nothing more. There are no new devices hanging from any of the poles or wires. All this work was underground at all four corners of each intersection under the sidewalk only(?)

reply to post by intrptr


Along the intercity highways there are 15 foot high concrete post with an opaque colored rectangular box that most likely monitors traffic flow and what else who knows . I have read where the new fangled Blue Tooth is incorporated in many things including our cars . Are our cars telling on us ? They have black boxes that can testify against us in court .

reply to post by SimonPeter

They have black boxes that can testify against us in court .

Probably. You remember "On Star"? That was a service you could purchase as an option with your car. If you locked your keys in your car, you could call On Star on your cell and they would unlock your doors. Or if you were in a wreck a voice would come on and say, "I have detected an air bag deployment and I am calling the Paramedics to come to your location. Please remain calm."

Have you noticed they don't advertise this option on TV anymore? Its probably incorporated in all new cars.

Now one day you will be kicking it with your friends at the beach or a bar and when you get in the car to drive away, the "voice" will come on and say, "I have detected the odor of alcohol and Marijuana in your car." (the doors lock) "I have contacted the authorities and they are on their way, please remain calm." (insert elevator music)

reply to post by roadgravel


Thanks for providing that link.

Originally posted by intrptr All this work was underground at all four corners of each intersection under the sidewalk only(?)

Maybe it's to sense wheelchairs waiting to cross. Did they put in sense loops there? You should be able to see the cuts for them.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by intrptr
Goto work (where you are monitored) and then go to the store on the way home where your purchases are totaled under your name, date and time

Ok, here's some paranoia feed. Long long ago, we did a prototype of a gadget that attached to the checkout registers in stores. It looked at what you bought, and tried to determine who you were from facial scans and your payment - if it was a check or debit card, we had you. We came up with "loyalty cards", I think some of the other bidders did as well, to try to ID the ones that were using cash.

The idea was to see what you bought and when, where, and how much of it. There is a lot of metadata in there.

It was sold to us as a tool for direct marketing to customers, if you bought Pepsi, they'd send you Coke coupons and targeted ads to your internet to lure you to try Coke. If you quit buying Pepsi, they could send you "come home to Pepsi" ads and the like.

However, given who we were doing it for, it had other stuff like - if you suddenly started buying kibbee and tahini, then maybe you had got a visitor. If you used your loyalty card in Cucamonga, well, we knew you weren't at home, and could often sort out which person in the household wasn't there anymore. Given that we had good relationship graphs, if you knew person x and suddenly your grocery habits looked like person x + you, then likely person x was at your domicile. Suddenly change your purchases totally, and do that a lot, and it's probably a false identity used by multiple people.

Those loyalty cards you see everywhere - the store gets paid for that information, that's why they give you the discounts. Did you ever wonder why they gave you a cut on things with a loyalty card? That's it. You're getting a cut of the money paid to them to associate your ID with that purchase.

Thank you for explaining how this stuff works.