Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible

I'm open to any religion, what bothers me ITT though is the people claiming Christianity is the only religion that will get you to "heaven".

NO. Hell is bullsh*t, I'm not saying the NDE's are not real, I'm saying perhaps they are MESSAGES, "supernatural" techniques used to convert people who are in it too deep, as in; "this will happen if you don't change your life".

I believe in the soul, the soul being your true self, which uses the body as a vessel and nothing more. When you die, you leave the vessel behind. What are people's souls including their vessels doing in hell? How can someone see other people in hell when they have left their bodies behind in the material world? I'm not buying it, I've been through my own hell and it's changed my life just like someone with a NDE sees their life changed. It's just that for some people, life is enough of a lesson, and for others, more drastic measures are needed (i.e. NDE). I was a proud atheist at one point in my life, I used to laugh at religion, but at the same time, my life was so meaningless, I hated it so much I almost ended it myself, till the day I realized I was not the separate individual I used to believe I was, I'm part of EVERYTHING, I AM everything, and when my journey here is over, I will return to where I came from, to use the lessons I have learned in my physical form.

Nobody is going to hell, of that I am sure, you know why? Because living in this dimension is enough of a hell. The only thing that happens to people who refuse to acknowledge what they truly are, is that they get a new chance after death, to try it again. People who realize this before they die can move on, at least in my belief.

Definition of hell to me? Living in an environment that makes it so hard for you to be yourself and believe what is true, that when you finally do, you are released out of it. Look at this planet we live in, for some it's a temporary heaven (or so they believe), for others it's hell. Now look at the people who need religion the most? People who are going through hell, they get strength out of knowing they're not alone on this journey, and through enduring all the horrible things, they're freed from hell, unlike the people who enjoy it here and don't care about what happens when they die.

Who is stuck? People who enjoy materialistic pleasures, people who don't care about others and only think about personal gain, and the sad part is, for them, it really is heaven on earth and the will have a hard time escaping from it.


Imagine you're in a cell in Hawai, they've decorated it real nicely, you get good meals and some entertainment, nice! Too bad there's an entire island out there without limitations, while you're thinking how nice it is in that cell, who really cares about what's outside? There's cocktails here! Most people are happy with what they have in the cell, they don't care about the island that is waiting for them once they reject the cell.

Aren't all these prophecies made redundant though until you prove that someone like Jesus even existed?

Otherwise isn't it just prophecies about a fictitious character, in which case it would make those odds less extraordinary, almost nullified... because he's fictitious and thus whoever is writing the story at the time can make whatever they like happen e.g. the fulfilment of a prophecy that someone a couple of hundred years before predicted?

I’m not belittling anything, I’m just asking as a person with almost no idea about most of religion.

reply to post by mikeprodigy

Originally posted by mikeprodigy
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Messiah means: Anointed which symbolizes, Being filled with the spirit of God.

I have the distinct feeling that the "spirit of God" part was added after the fact. Anointed in no way requires anything godly. Anointed can mean chief, shaman, wiseman, teacher, leader, any number of things. Perhaps the "spirit of God" was included at a later date in order to support the claim of Jesus' divinity.

Ever heard of the banned gospels? Ever wonder why Jesus' gospel was never included in the Bible? And surely, if there was one book that must be included...and yet it's missing. Hint hint. :/

reply to post by MartyrCollect


That's very true. I've heard that dozens of Jesuses existed at that time frame, and none were from Nazareth. I've even heard that Nazareth was nonexistent at the time of Jesus' supposed reign. Seeing as how Jesus' entire legend is proven to be compiled from the myths of other faiths and cultures, how do we know Jesus was even his real name? After all, the message came from an angel. Sounds a little like someone playing on the superstitions of a community in order to hide the truth.

reply to post by Murgatroid


Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim

Murgatroid, with all due respect, I can post videos of Christians, even pastors, who converted to Islam. A testimony video doesn't really work because people change religions all the time. They all have unique experiences. Islam, though, is one of very few faiths that people can and do come to intellectually. What I mean is, for instance, with Christianity most times people come to it based on emotional reasons. With Islam when people do research into the revelation (Al-Qur'an) and into the historical significance/origin of Islam it becomes abundantly clear that it is the truth and the final revelation from Allah to mankind. Islam does not require blind faith.

“But say: “O my Lord! Increase me in knowledge." (Quran 20:115)

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Whoever seeks a way to acquire knowledge Allah will make easy his way to Paradise.” [Sahîh Muslim (2699)]

It was also related by Anas b. Malik that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Seeking knowledge is obligatory upon every Muslim.” [Sunan Ibn Mâjah (224) and others]

"The ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr." (Mentioned by al-Manjaniqi in his collection of hadith)

Peace be upon you.

reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786


From what you have posted here, I already respect Islam more than Christianity. Sounds like you guys are rewarded for critical thinking, instead of this:

"Trust the Lord in all things, and lean not on your own understanding." - Proverbs 3:5

Or in other words, let the Bible do your thinking for you. Don't bother trying to figure it out.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


There's another saying that is attributed to Muhammad (saws), although no one can really find a source for it so he probably didn't say it, but it's in line with the others I quoted above. "Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave."

I never understood why the Bible was so anti-knowledge. Based on my understanding of God, it seems indeed that He would want us to use the intellect He gave us. Why create knowledge if we are to reject it?

I mean the book of Ecclesiastes says, "He who increases in knowledge increases in sorrow." And the Bible considers the first sin the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786


The Bible is anti-knowledge because whoever wrote it knew that we would be very...*ahem* careless with knowledge. Atomic bombs, napalm, fusion, guided missiles, laser weapons, etc. As I have said, the Bible is written based on a philosophy of erring on the side of caution. Remember, it was written in times when a papercut was as deadly as cutting your wrist. Therefore, all manner of hazardous activity was prohibited to protect the human race. Homosexuality was said to be forbidden by God because superstition was used to support sexual protection. They didn't have medicine to treat herpes or syphilis. No one wants to offend a God, so...

A working theory of mine is that natural disasters befell many of the cities, and they made up a superstitious reason for the occurrence. And because anything god-related was assumed to be true out of fearful stigma, it would of course be be kept as a record.

This is the reason I say we need to set most of the Bible aside. Now that we have the material mastery to handle most illnesses and accidents with great efficacy, we need to update our spirituality. Science, I believe, will help us with this...considering spirituality is simply science that we have not developed.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the accuracy of the original texts. You may not trust the authors, but that doesn't make the overall message untrue or unreliable. The Bible has stood the test of time.

Well, I see that you finially had to come clean on plagarizing the Hugh Ross/RTB web site for your first posting and having to provide the URL that you took it from.

I also see some rather odd comments on the second law of thermo dynamics per probability. The truth is if the second law of thermo dynamics can, in any case, be seen not to follow the law, then it is invalid and not a law. The probability for the second law has to be 100 percent, else it fails the test.

Same goes for all these probabilty issues, as if there is a chance it didn't happen it is invalid.


Most of us have read real Bible Scholars and not the fly by nights that you quote, that try to fake science credibility. We have read all about the Forgeries in the Bible that you and your plagarized original content didn't seem to want to include in your analysis.

www.amazon.com...

Written in a manner accessible to nonspecialists, Ehrman argues that many books of the New Testament are not simply written by people other than the ones to whom they are attributed, but that they are deliberate forgeries. The word itself connotes scandal and crime, and it appears on nearly every page. Indeed, this book takes on an idea widely accepted by biblical scholars: that writing in someone else's name was common practice and perfectly okay in ancient times. Ehrman argues that it was not even then considered acceptable—hence, a forgery. While many readers may wish for more evidence of the charge, Ehrman's introduction to the arguments and debates among different religious communities during the first few centuries and among the early Christians themselves, though not the book's main point, is especially valuable.

Thus, the Bible appears fallable by its very existance and all work based upon an invalid source is 100 percent suspect of being corrupt, both in copy content changing by translation errors and via metaphore issues inabilty to be translated properly.

It is 100 percent certain that the real Jesus was abducted and his history modified beyond the real history and simple truth. In other words, the Bible's and Organized Churches presentation of Jesus is invalid and more myth that reality.

Thus, most question the very existance of the faked up Jesus due to the extensive embellishments into fantasy.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Have you seen the movie Idiocracy? The main character goes into the future and finds the world on the brink of collapse and worldwide famine, because the people believed the gatorade commercials that said "gatorade is pure goodness" (or something similar) so they fed it to all their crops which began to die. The guy from the past tried to tell them to give the plants water, not gatorade. They could not comprehend this, and they would only reply "but....gatorade is pure goodness!" And finally the guy had to say "ok...you know what? I can talk to plants, and they're TELLING ME they want WATER!" And then they believed him.

You seem to understand the reasoning behind some of the ancient religious laws...it was for their own good, right? If you told them teeny tiny animals would kill them, they might say something like "But we are much larger! I will kill this animal with my spear!" So the wise ones (how they knew about bacteria is a matter of debate that does not preclude the existence of a god, BTW) had to say "No! Listen to me! I can talk to God, and he wants us to stay clean and follow these laws! Ok?!"

Ok, so we've cured a few diseases....but are you sure we are completely out of the woods yet?

Isn't is pretty well known among the wisest of us that even the wisest of us know very little at all?

Maybe putting our trust into God isn't such a bad idea then, since we know so little. Don't let your ego trip you up. Just because our parent had to lie to us for our own protection when we were younger, does not mean they cannot be trusted and do not want the best for us.

Some here have said our brand of God rules by fear, and have made many other accusations. Well I ask you, is it God who has done these terrible things? Has religion been the root of all this misery? Or, could Occams razor come into play here? Could it be that, as we often see today, not God, nor religion is responsible, but some evil men who would like to use God, and religion, as a scapegoat, or even justification for their own wicked deeds and desires?

There is plenty of knowledge to be had for those with a discerning mind. Some of the Bible does seem suspect. I'll admit it. But i am still only a mortal. I seek wisdom wherever it may be found, and I follow my heart which tells me to do the most good, and the least evil, to others during my time here. And I believe and trust in God and Jesus or Yeshua, but that's because of personal experiences. I can't tell you what to believe because as a mortal, I know that what's right for me may not be right for everybody. And no I would never attempt to foretell the future and say that anyone will surely go to hell or heaven. I will not make Gods decisions for him or her as some would do. People who practice such spellcraft such as predicting the future have given people like me a bad name, even though I don't associate with them or go into their temples. The synagogue of Satan, I believe, is real and here. Their work is the reason so many self declared logical minded people refuse to believe...

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

(The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 10^2000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!

God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy. Messages from Satan, furthermore, fail to match the detail of Bible prophecies, nor do they include a call to repentance.

The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error.

As economy does not permit an explanation of all the Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled, what follows in a discussion of a few that exemplify the high degree of specificity, the range of projection, and/or the "supernature" of the predicted events. Readers are encouraged to select others, as well, and to carefully examine their historicity.

Since these thirteen prophecies cover mostly separate and independent events, the probability of chance occurrence for all thirteen is about 1 in 10^138 (138 equals the sum of all the exponents of 10 in the probability estimates above). For the sake of putting the figure into perspective, this probability can be compared to the statistical chance that the second law of thermodynamics will be reversed in a given situation (for example, that a gasoline engine will refrigerate itself during its combustion cycle or that heat will flow from a cold body to a hot body)—that chance = 1 in 10^80. Stating it simply, based on these thirteen prophecies alone, the Bible record may be said to be vastly more reliable than the second law of thermodynamics. Each reader should feel free to make his own reasonable estimates of probability for the chance fulfillment of the prophecies cited here. In any case, the probabilities deduced still will be absurdly remote.

Given that the Bible proves so reliable a document, there is every reason to expect that the remaining 500 prophecies, those slated for the "time of the end," also will be fulfilled to the last letter. Who can afford to ignore these coming events, much less miss out on the immeasurable blessings offered to anyone and everyone who submits to the control of the Bible's author, Jesus Christ? Would a reasonable person take lightly God's warning of judgment for those who reject what they know to be true about Jesus Christ and the Bible, or who reject Jesus' claim on their lives?

*The estimates of probability included herein come from a group of secular research scientists. As an example of their method of estimation, consider their calculations for this first prophecy cited:

- Since the Messiah's ministry could conceivably begin in any one of about 5000 years, there is, then, one chance in about 5000 that his ministry could begin in 26 A.D.
- Since the Messiah is God in human form, the possibility of his being killed is considerably low, say less than one chance in 10.
- Relative to the second destruction of Jerusalem, this execution has roughly an even chance of occurring before or after that event, that is, one chance in 2.

Hence, the probability of chance fulfillment for this prophecy is 1 in 5000 x 10 x 2, which is 1 in 100,000, or 1 in 105.

Source

edit on 7/1/2012 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

Since it appears that you wrote this lower half on probabilty. Account for the issue that the hardship of various Hebrew and religion factions have wished for a Messiah/Savior for each day of every year, why you think Jesus is the special one out of the thousands?

reply to post by DarkKnight21


The original message, you say? Well, there's the crux of the matter. What IS the original message of the Bible? That we should all love one another, but kill anyone who eats pig, worships the earth, practices love with a human being of the same sex, doesn't debase themselves and perform pretend cannibalism on sunday, abstain from sex unless purely for the event of reproduction, or any number of other things that can result in being stoned, hanged, or beheaded in the name of the God who invented "Thou shalt not kill"? That God is allowed to kill thousands of people and demand that we humiliate ourselves in his name, before threatening that everything that goes wrong is our fault and we will all be screwed if we don't rely on him, but Satan gets condemned to the underworld because he opened our eyes against God's will? That we should invade the privacy of perfectly healthy cultures and threaten that they worship our god or face death and mutilation, before saying that if they had converted, they would have been saved? Killing thousands based on "witchcraft", which was nothing more than a powertrip at the hands of zealous Puritans? Going so far as to be "married" to God, thereby forbidding marriage to a mortal woman, and yet enjoying pleasures with little boys in the basement?

Is that the message we're talking about? Haha, good luck with that one. The best half of your message has been dead for a long time. The only good it does now is to convince people there's still hope for this world...still a way to control the chaos without actually lifting a finger. Pfft...

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Right! And the Bible was compiled well after the fact and could have been written to support prophecies. The Bible and the dubious writers are completely unreliable.

Tell that to archeaologists. They would contradict you. I refer you to my signature link Archeaology proves the truths of the Holy Bible. Science is catching up to what was written 3500 years ago, and proving it true. You can deny the truth all you like, but that doesn't mean you are right.

Take for instance, standing in Mt. Sinai 3500 years ago YHWH told Moses the origins of man and that man was created from dust (animals as well). If you look at the elemental composition of the human body (and all creatures), you will find every single element on the earth. Science says, everything came from stardust. Lo and behold, man was made from dust! Truth and science are both there, just you and most people like you do not know what you are looking at. So 3500 years ago when man had no concept of science, Moses learned these things from YHWH, advanced knowledge that wasn't even learned until 3500 years later upon the creation of the periodic table and microscopes and advanced anatomy.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by DarkKnight21

 

The original message, you say? Well, there's the crux of the matter. What IS the original message of the Bible? That we should all love one another, but kill anyone who eats pig, worships the earth, practices love with a human being of the same sex, doesn't debase themselves and perform pretend cannibalism on sunday, abstain from sex unless purely for the event of reproduction, or any number of other things that can result in being stoned, hanged, or beheaded in the name of the God who invented "Thou shalt not kill"? That God is allowed to kill thousands of people and demand that we humiliate ourselves in his name, before threatening that everything that goes wrong is our fault and we will all be screwed if we don't rely on him, but Satan gets condemned to the underworld because he opened our eyes against God's will? That we should invade the privacy of perfectly healthy cultures and threaten that they worship our god or face death and mutilation, before saying that if they had converted, they would have been saved? Killing thousands based on "witchcraft", which was nothing more than a powertrip at the hands of zealous Puritans? Going so far as to be "married" to God, thereby forbidding marriage to a mortal woman, and yet enjoying pleasures with little boys in the basement?

Is that the message we're talking about? Haha, good luck with that one. The best half of your message has been dead for a long time. The only good it does now is to convince people there's still hope for this world...still a way to control the chaos without actually lifting a finger. Pfft...

edit on 2-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

This comes from someone who has pitiful knowledge of the scriptures. The Israelites didn't obey YHWH's voice or keep his commandments, the bible plainly tells you they took what he gave them and turned it into a tradition of men. In every age there were always a minority who held true to his tenets, these were the prophets and their followers. This has remained true even to this day, there are those who obey his voice and keep his commandments and there are those who ignore it for want of their own desires and so they make their own religions and go their own way, skipping their way back to Babylon and Egypt.

Everything you mentioned above was an instance of men disobeying Yeshua to entertain their own desires. Nowhere did Yeshua forbid marrying, just that if you cannot abastain from having sex then you should marry. Neither did he say you cannot have sex with your wife for any reason beyond reproduction sex builds bonds between man and wife.

There are things he finds detestable because they are a corruption of what he created, homosexuality is one of them and it is an abomination in his eyes because it goes against what he created, so is sexually abusing children. You are blaming him for the wickedness men do and for their deeds.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

There are things he finds detestable because they are a corruption of what he created, homosexuality is one of them and it is an abomination in his eyes because it goes against what he created, so is sexually abusing children. You are blaming him for the wickedness men do and for their deeds.

So slavery is okay too then? Or stoning women who don't listen to their husbands? Is it alright to have multiple wives? I believe there is also a scripture stating that if you die, your brother must take your wife.

And of course, you take all of this in stride. After all, if they say it's from God, they can't be wrong, can they? Not even if the hand of "God" never touched the pages! Allow me to inform you of something, good sir. The Bible is only holy because MAN says it's holy. Never once have I heard God tell me that the Bible is a holy book, is the absolute truth, and that to oppose it is to ensure my eternal damnation. You want to believe it because without the Bible, life becomes meaningless and you have absolutely no clue what lies beyond death. It's your security blanket. And because you were taught to. In truth, the only thing the Bible is...is an exercise of faith. What I find hilarious to the point of smacking my head against the nearest durable surface is that the Church bases half of its faith off of a message given by a spirit...and yet, if anyone was caught communing with spirits, they were accused of witchcraft and burned at the stake!

Man made the Bible holy. Man continues to make it holy - because they are too afraid to admit otherwise. That's the reason Jesus' personal journal has never been seen. It would destroy the faith, reduce the Church to rubble and dust. It would show that every scrap of stigma attached to Christianity, every promise and every practice, however well-intentioned, was based on a lie. And I will make a prediction now: you are going to accuse me of ignorance, accuse me of denying evidence and ignoring logic, and you will continue to bleat your professed faith because that's all you ever learned to do.

And at this point, the truth is too painful for you to bear. It's alright, I don't hold it against you. It's a lot of work rebuilding your entire belief system, especially after the last one got so brutally beaten down. But someday, hopefully, you'll find the strength to do it. Until then, just have hope. If there was one good message in the Bible, it's that we should always have hope.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


The first records of the Bible were written 200 years after the fact.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

There are things he finds detestable because they are a corruption of what he created, homosexuality is one of them and it is an abomination in his eyes because it goes against what he created, so is sexually abusing children. You are blaming him for the wickedness men do and for their deeds.

So slavery is okay too then? Or stoning women who don't listen to their husbands? Is it alright to have multiple wives? I believe there is also a scripture stating that if you die, your brother must take your wife.

And of course, you take all of this in stride. After all, if they say it's from God, they can't be wrong, can they? Not even if the hand of "God" never touched the pages! Allow me to inform you of something, good sir. The Bible is only holy because MAN says it's holy. Never once have I heard God tell me that the Bible is a holy book, is the absolute truth, and that to oppose it is to ensure my eternal damnation. You want to believe it because without the Bible, life becomes meaningless and you have absolutely no clue what lies beyond death. It's your security blanket. And because you were taught to. In truth, the only thing the Bible is...is an exercise of faith. What I find hilarious to the point of smacking my head against the nearest durable surface is that the Church bases half of its faith off of a message given by a spirit...and yet, if anyone was caught communing with spirits, they were accused of witchcraft and burned at the stake!

Man made the Bible holy. Man continues to make it holy - because they are too afraid to admit otherwise. That's the reason Jesus' personal journal has never been seen. It would destroy the faith, reduce the Church to rubble and dust. It would show that every scrap of stigma attached to Christianity, every promise and every practice, however well-intentioned, was based on a lie. And I will make a prediction now: you are going to accuse me of ignorance, accuse me of denying evidence and ignoring logic, and you will continue to bleat your professed faith because that's all you ever learned to do.

And at this point, the truth is too painful for you to bear. It's alright, I don't hold it against you. It's a lot of work rebuilding your entire belief system, especially after the last one got so brutally beaten down. But someday, hopefully, you'll find the strength to do it. Until then, just have hope. If there was one good message in the Bible, it's that we should always have hope.

edit on 2-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

My question to you is. Why are you bringing up the old covenant? That is done with and gone. I told you before they were doing this he didn't tell them to, not to mention those days are long passed and people did different things in different times. You're judging a people base don how the entire world was back then, not just one people. None of this has anything to do with his second covenant. Or are you just looking to split hairs? The OT is the history of the decendants of Israel (Jacob). You've missed the entire message in the bible, paticularly the NT, that being not just to have hope, but to have mercy and forgiveness and that we are under Yeshua's grace and mercy. I'm in no pain because i know the truth. Perhaps you should stop transferring your feelings onto me, you seem to have issues you cannot let go or get over.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

My question to you is. Why are you bringing up the old covenant? That is done with and gone.

Because they followed the same exact book you do. If so many different interpretations can be made, how can you be so sure you're right? How can anyone be sure? If you can pick and choose, that's not the truth!

And that makes it worthless.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


the bible isn't one book though...

The NT and the OT are vastly different...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

My question to you is. Why are you bringing up the old covenant? That is done with and gone.

Because they followed the same exact book you do. If so many different interpretations can be made, how can you be so sure you're right? How can anyone be sure? If you can pick and choose, that's not the truth!

And that makes it worthless.

Actually, we follow the NT, we just use the OT for prophecies and confirming the NT and because of moral lessons to be learned, like do not repeat their failures. Thats the biggest moral lesson to be learned from the OT, to not repeat past mistakes, to learn from your mistakes not keep doing the same damn thing over and over.