One Man's Journey...

A few members have expressed an interest in hearing my story, and since I have an interest in hearing other members stories, I'm hoping you will chime in and share your own stories with us. I realize this is lengthy, but I really did shorten it a lot.

I was raised by my aunt and uncle, because my mother died when I was a baby. My father couldn't handle it on his own, so his sister took the responsibility on. My aunt and uncle, hereafter referred to as my parents, were politically conservative, and though they were believers in God and the bible, they were not church goers. So growing up, I had an awareness of the biblical god and Christianity, and my parents had plenty of discussions about it around me, but they didn't push me into it. They felt that was a decision I would have to make when I was old enough...

By the time I was 21, I had already lived a hard and self destructive life. I grew up in a ghetto, and was filled with hatred, rage, and violence. I was a drinker, a drug user, a womanizer, and no one you'd want to know personally. My parents were good people, and they did their best, but the outside influences were more than they could overcome.

To digress a little, I have always been an avid reader from the time I could. I liked ancient history, science and science fiction, genealogy, metaphysics, paganism, religious history, and even read the bible through as a teen(Not that it helped me at the time). I also read all of Von Daniken's books as they came out, as well as The Golden Bough, and Drawing Down The Moon. So I'm old.

Some months after I turned 21, I literally looked in the mirror one day, and said, "Enough is enough!". And started trying to straighten myself, and my life out as best I could. I quit drinking, drugs, et al. and by the time I was 22, I was back to reading the bible through again. During this time, some things really jumped out at me in scripture, and I had a girlfriend who believed in God, but wasn't pushy about it. So she was easy to talk to.

Then one winter night, I was reading alone in the book of Matthew, and came upon these verses...

7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Now to the heathen, those verses will mean little, but those are the verses that prompted me to accept Jesus Christ right then and there, by myself. For the next 27-28 years, I was a zealous, hardcore, unapologetic, fundamentalist Christian. I read the bible through several times. I studied it word for word, and sentence for sentence. I used lexicons, concordances, commentaries, and so on. I prayed day and night for understanding, wisdom, and revelation. I also kept up with biblical archaeology, and the latest finds and critiques of original manuscripts, and early church writings.

I attended church every time the doors were open. I witnessed to many people on the streets, and anywhere else I felt led to do so. I taught and preached from the pulpit, I served as an elder(deacon) in my church, and was 100% committed to serving God. I have met many in Christian ministries who shall remain nameless, and have had numerous "prophecies" said over me. I have seen instantaneous healings, and other amazing things come from prayer, and the laying on of hands.

As an elder, I was privy to things the congregation wasn't. And the longer I was an elder, the more I was privy to. I found myself counseling and praying for people with problems I didn't think existed among Christians. I knew the churches business, and everyone's dirty laundry that I didn't want to know, but kept it to myself. I didn't even tell my wife. I could live with peoples problems, because I had had plenty in my own life.

The problems really began with church leadership. Misappropriation of money, lying to the congregation, and non-Christian behavior among the leadership. Then to find out there were those in leadership who didn't even believe what they were pretending to live topped it off. I began confronting what I saw head on, and finally wound up leaving, only to find myself in another church with worse problems.

After leaving the church completely, I wasn't going to blame God where humans were obviously responsible. I had my ups and downs, but I never turned completely away from God. Finally, at one point in my life, I began praying for answers. I prayed vehemently for a very long time for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about the church, Christianity, and God himself. And I never mentioned it to a soul. It seemed fruitless for a while, but then...

Things I had read many years ago started coming back to me. Things I had glossed over and rationalized as being lies from the Devil came to my remembrance. I started researching intensely. I continued to pray for truth, and dammit, I was going to find some truth. It was during this time that I realized the world did not conform to my paradigm. And God didn’t either. I had been living a consensus reality for so long, I didn’t even realize it. I knew about some of the things we talk about at ATS, but my perspective on them was “inspired” by Christianity.

I looked at all the religions again.
I looked at parallels and timelines between them.
I compared biblical archaeology, mainstream archaeology, and alternative archaeology.
I looked at contradictions in the bible.
I looked at scientific problems with the bible. (The sun standing still, and so on.)
I looked at alternative theories on Christianity, and the bibles origins. I still do.
And so much more. I did my best to be objective in my research, and to give all sides a fair listen and rebuttal. I talked with Christian and unbeliever alike...

But honestly, I think the final blow to my faith was my understanding of hypnosis, the subconscious, and the collective unconscious, which I do believe exists in some way or form. I had quit practicing meditation and hypnosis when I got “saved”. But I knew and know from experience what humans are capable of all on their own. Belief, faith, and prayer are all powerful whether you believe in a god or not. But my own cognitive dissonance wouldn’t let me connect the dots for many years.

Add to that, the other evidence that I felt weighed heavily against my faith, and I made a decision to walk away and never look back. However, it wasn’t quite that easy. It took a lot of work to deprogram myself, and the way of thinking I had become accustomed to. I had doubts and fears in both directions for a long time. As I said in a post recently, I would never want to fight that inner battle again. There’s a lot more I could say, but I’ll leave it there for the TLDR crowd.

Questions are welcome, as long as this thread remains civil, unlike a previous question and answer thread I tried to do that was a total fail. I would really like to hear other members stories, similar to mine or not. So I encourage you to share your own experiences and opinions.

reply to post by Klassified


Thank you for sharing Klassified. It's always interesting to me to hear people's stories of how and why they converted or de-converted. I think that on both sides of the belief and non-belief debate there are too many folks ready to ascribe dishonesty to people on the other side. Atheists almost immediately jump on a Christian as though they are lying about what they believe or why they believe it. Theists often accuse atheists of secretly believing.

There is an element of seeking the truth in your story, of legitimately wanting to believe but more than that of wanting to find the truth no matter where it led. My own story is similar though admittedly I cannot compare to being a believer for 28 years (I was no longer a Christian by age 19) nor was I ever in a position of authority at a church. I did, however, do an awful lot of research on my own and the internet played a big part in that.

At first when I was in my teens and still a Christian I became enamored with creationist websites and the idea that human beings might have co-existed with dinosaurs. I wasn't a Young Earther, I accepted the idea that the dinosaurs were likely millions of years old, but thought that perhaps more of them escaped extinction than we'd previously believed. I swallowed what I was fed by many a creationist source believing that because they were Christians they wouldn't knowingly lie to me. Maybe they never did knowingly lie but it took me a very long time to realize their information was all wrong.

As you can imagine when I was a teenager getting me up on a Sunday to drag me to church was a chore for my parents, and with two younger siblings to worry about they eventually gave up on me in that regard. When I was about seventeen I stopped regularly attending our Pentecostal church. I tried to focus on finding God on my own terms, if he wanted a true relationship with me he knew where to find me.

Like you I was always interested in alternative history and archeology, cryptozoology was a big favorite for me. I used to go to the library and get out the same book almost everytime, In the Wake of the Sea Serpents, written by the so-called Father of cryptozoology Bernard Heuvelmans. The book is huge and yet I must've read it three or four times all the way through. I was also interested in science and science fiction and my Mother, who was and is much less of a fundamentalist than my Father, got me started on shows like the X-Files. Alien abduction and UFOs became an interest for me and a bit of a phobia thanks to watching the show at a fairly young age.

As I said I began to seek God on my own in my late teens and when I set out to read the entire Bible I soon found myself at odds with what I believed God was (loving, kind, a friend and Father) and what the Bible describes God doing (condoning slavery, commanding and committing genocide). What I'd been shown of the Bible in church and by my parents had been little slivers interpreted for me, I'd been given the meaning by someone else. Now that I had a chance to read it for myself I found the so-called Word of God to be anything but.

By the time I was about nineteen I couldn't call myself I Christian. I didn't want to know the limited wicked God of the Bible, I wanted to know the grand cosmic creator, the God that was bigger than picking a chosen people because he loved all people. I cried out for guidance, for answers, I prayed and spoke in tongues but I never got any answers that I couldn't trace back to my own mind. For a time I believed we were engineered by aliens, but that didn't last long, once I'd researched it and realized there was no good evidence. I began to apply my skepticism more readily, believing that any truth worth believing needed to be doubted thoroughly first especially if it had to do with important questions of the meaning of life, the universe and everything.

I wandered in and out of deism and pantheism and days when I just wasn't sure I believed there was anything out there. Eventually I realized that I had no reason to believe in a God and for a time I believed in reincarnation without the need for a deity (in order to stave off fear of death). Soon that fell by the wayside too. I labeled myself an agnostic until a friend of mine explained to me that I actually fit the definition of an atheist as well and so since about 2009 I've been an agnostic-atheist.

Star and Flag!

reply to post by Klassified


So you let flawed people who are not perfect, and probably self decieved about who Christ is, who fell to teachings of the nicotaitans rob you of your joy and your faith and ultimately of your God and you passed judgement on them, threw your hands up in the air and walked away. Where did Yeshua ever say this would be easy? I've heard your bit, now hear mine.

I was born in 1979 to a pentecostal father and a baptist mother. My dad was definately not perfect and he was very abusive. The physical, mental and emotional abuse began at the age of 3. My mother tried to protect me and it was nearly an everyday episode where she literally had to throw herself in front of me to shield me from his abuse, taking it for herself. The first time they divorced i was 5 but she came back to him because of my brother and I (twins), my dad had gotten custody of us (he was a freemason and very influential, the judge who gave him custody was also a freemason), so she came back and stayed another 5 years of abuse and the times she was at work and we were home alone with him she couldn't protect us and it was very stressful on her. Second and final time they divrced i was 10, she just couldn't take it anymore. My dad had moved us to El Paso Texas to be with one of the convicts he had started having an affair with as a correctional officer at a federal penitentiary in Lexington Ky. My mother found one of her love letters to him written in spanish, she couldn't read spanish but my dad could, so she had one of her friends who was latino read it for her and that was the end, mental, emotional, physical abuse and then betrayal after the hell she took it broke her.

The next 7 years of my life became a hell, he targetted me, and i became his punching bag because i was stronger than my brother at that time. We'd go to church wednseday nights and both services sunday and he was a royal bastard 7 days a week an hour up until we went to church the abuse never stopped. At 14 i came down with ulcerative colitis and nearly died. I was so low laying there in that hospital bed, i just wanted to end it. My friend's mom was an RN, he and i played football together, and i just wanted to give up. She could tell i was being abused, how i don't know but she knew and we talked about it. I thought i was going to die in that hospital and i wanted to, i just wanted the horror show to be over. It didn't end. After i developed U.C. which the docs say came early in life due to extreme stress (no duh) my dad decided he'd take a liking to punching me in the gut which would cause me to crap blood for weeks after. I got tired of the abuse at 17. My brother enlisted with the army to get away, and he was worried so he and i went to the Assembly of God pastor where went to church to ask for help. He called me a liar and a deciever and told me i should be ashamed, my dad had him snowed good (pop was a good manipulator). So i went to the youth pastor, he believed me, he spent more time with me. It caused a rift that tore that church apart.

Depressed and dejected i ran away from home to live with my mom in Arkansas at 17, i was desperate. I blamed God, quit going to church. Dropped out of school my senior year at age 17, got a G.E.D. and went to college where i became agnostic. Experimented with foriegn gods and religions, while the hate and anger from my childhood slowly ate at my soul. I threw everything i had into that empty hole in my soul, religions, and finally came to a point where i didn't give a damn if there was a God or a Christ, i figured if they did exist they had to be evil because of the "childhood" i lived. I fell into drugs and alcohol to kill the pain and sex addiction and slowly the hatred and anger poisoned me. Not only did i live in hell the first 17 years of my life, i lived in hell for another 14 years blaming God and then fell into ancient astronaught theory. I wanted to die but was afraid to die, many times i had thought about putting a gun to my head and blowing my brains out. Nothing i threw in that blackhole in my soul ever filled it up. I was in so much despair.

One day i met a deacon at a local missionary baptist church, he invited me to church that sunday and i went. When i went through the door it was like coming home. They were really nice, so i kept going. I gave my life to Christ and immediately felt peace. All the pain and horror washed away, the anger was replaced by love for my dad and the hatred disappeared. I prayed to Jesus and asked him to teach me how to love, i heard him say "before you can love you first have to forgive". I realized that i should have been dead a long time ago, but it was him keeping me alive, always there with me. He gave me revelation that he is YHWH 6 months later and started showing me in the OT where he was. 1.5 years later i'm still learning, and the pain is gone.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

First off, thank you for sharing your story Lonewolf. I sincerely appreciate it. I can tell you when I was an elder, I would have done everything I could for you, because I did more than once, and it got me in trouble a few times.

Now to address your first comments.

So you let flawed people who are not perfect, and probably self decieved about who Christ is, who fell to teachings of the nicotaitans rob you of your joy and your faith and ultimately of your God and you passed judgement on them, threw your hands up in the air and walked away. Where did Yeshua ever say this would be easy? I've heard your bit, now hear mine.

Obviously, you missed this statement in my OP.

After leaving the church completely, I wasn't going to blame God where humans were obviously responsible.

That part is on you. The next is on me, and I take responsibility. I was still an unwavering Christian for over 15 years after I left membership in that church. So I believe it is you who has passed judgement without first thinking and asking questions. My reason for being an atheist/agnostic now doesn't hinge on what those people, and many more like them have, and are doing. My choice was made by me, alone, just the same way I came to God to start with.

Good post.

reply to post by Klassified

But honestly, I think the final blow to my faith was my understanding of hypnosis, the subconscious, and the collective unconscious, which I do believe exists in some way or form. I had quit practicing meditation and hypnosis when I got “saved”. But I knew and know from experience what humans are capable of all on their own. Belief, faith, and prayer are all powerful whether you believe in a god or not. But my own cognitive dissonance wouldn’t let me connect the dots for many years.

Out of curiosity, where has your understanding of hypnosis, the subconscious and the collective unconscious led you? What have you experienced? What have you learned?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Your story reminds me of someone else I know Titen. Unfortunately, that person doesn't have the head on their shoulders you do.

believing that any truth worth believing needed to be doubted thoroughly first especially if it had to do with important questions of the meaning of life, the universe and everything.

If I may, it sounds like you might be interested in something a good friend introduced me to a few years ago. The philosophy has been helpful to me if applied properly in ones life. Cartesian Skepticism

reply to post by Klassified

I have seen instantaneous healings, and other amazing things come from prayer, and the laying on of hands.

So, what realization did you come to when applying logic and skepticism to these things that you have witnessed? Did you ever come to a conclusion?

reply to post by Klassified

My reason for for being an atheist/agnostic now doesn't hinge on what those people, and many more like them have, and are doing. My choice was made by me, alone, just the same way I came to God to start with.

As humans we are the sum of our experiences. If you think i'm going to believe that what happened to you had no effect on the way you are now you're mistaken because thats not what your OP says. You talk about their flaws and how you began to see things and that my friend did affect your mind, it would affect any person's mind and it affected mine. Because we are humans (christians are no less human) we do not stop to think that our actions have consequences on those around us, not just for ourselves but for others. This is what is called "casting stumbling blocks" but you should remember that. What we do, what we say echoes in eternity, like the rippling of a pond when you throw a rock in.

I realized while looking back on the course of my life that even during the hell i lived, YHWH blessed me. By all right i should be dead or in jail and i could have been dead so many times, so very easily. Yeshua never turned his back on me, i turned my back on him. I guess for people like me who have only known pain and suffering, want to find peace and hope that there is a God out there who can make everything ok in the end. He may be imaginary to you with your experiences, but he is real to me in mine and real to others in theirs and this is why he will never be disproven. I don't know why he chooses to reveal himself to some and not others, but he does. For whatever reason, whatever purpose he always seems to go for the brokenhearted and destitute first, perhaps that is his shepherding nature to find that wounded and lost lamb and give them rest. As for me and my house? We choose to believe in the "magic man in the sky". Without him we are a brokenhearted people.

reply to post by Deetermined

Out of curiosity, where has your understanding of hypnosis, the subconscious and the collective unconscious led you? What have you experienced? What have you learned?

Let me answer part of that by explaining something about myself. When I was a Christian, others believed I had the gifts of "word of knowledge", "word of prophecy", and so on. In one case, I was witnessing to a man, and in an instant, I knew specific things about this man I couldn't have known. When I told him what "God" had shown me, he got "saved".
I have had a few times since I have been a heathen, that this very same thing has happened. Only God wasn't there to blame this time, and I certainly wasn't witnessing to anyone. This is partly what makes me believe we are all connected in some way by a collective consciousness or as some call it, a higher consciousness. Noreaster did a thread on this that says it better than I can.

The human mind is a complex, yet simplistic, organism that brings to us what we truly focus on. I'm not a believer in the Law of Attraction as it is commercialized to be. I do believe the principle is sound to varying degrees, but the theory has it's flaws. But to your question...

I have learned that much of what I thought was God in my life, was a combination of subconscious, intuitive, and hypnotic influences and processes in my mind. That's as simple as I can make it without writing a thesis.

Basically, I brainwashed myself with help from outside influences that I allowed. And therefore, I had to un-brainwash myself once I finally realized it. From my perspective, Fundamentalist Christianity is no less a cult than the Moonies were. And I say that with no intention of offending you or anyone else. I'm just speaking my opinion from my own experiences.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Klassified

 

I have seen instantaneous healings, and other amazing things come from prayer, and the laying on of hands.

So, what realization did you come to when applying logic and skepticism to these things that you have witnessed? Did you ever come to a conclusion?

As humans, we have the capability to heal ourselves and one another, if we only will.

reply to post by Klassified

The human mind is a complex, yet simplistic, organism that brings to us what we truly focus on. I'm not a believer in the Law of Attraction as it is commercialized to be. I do believe the principle is sound to varying degrees, but the theory has it's flaws.

But to your question... I have learned that much of what I thought was God in my life, was a combination of subconscious, intuitive, and hypnotic influences and processes in my mind. That's as simple as I can make it without writing a thesis.

Do these influences come to you automatically at any given moment or do you practice something in particular that helps you to tap into this collective consciousness?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

If you think i'm going to believe that what happened to you had no effect on the way you are now you're mistaken because thats not what your OP says.

It most certainly had an effect on me. My post history even reflects that effect. I am exceptionally hard on church leadership. Because what I saw on a small to medium scale, has been happening on a large scale for centuries. But especially in our modern society. I have had more than one "insider" tell me horror stories I won't repeat about those who portray themselves as spiritual leaders in this world. But most of them are parasites feeding off the poor and the deceived.

What I said was, I didn't blame God for it at the time. I remained steadfast, though I had my hilltops and valleys like any Christian. And I ask why like anyone else. Admittedly though, I trusted no leaders in the church after that, and I was proved right more than once.

reply to post by Deetermined

Do these influences come to you automatically at any given moment or do you practice something in particular that helps you to tap into this collective consciousness?

That's a loaded question Deetermined, and you know it.
It sounds like something I might have asked someone I was counseling, looking for demonic influences in their life. The influences I was talking about were more along the lines of mental and emotional from the church. As humans, we are easily mesmerized(hypnotized) when we are focused, making it that much easier to influence our thinking.

I have seen instantaneous healings, and other amazing things come from prayer, and the laying on of hands

How much of this have you seen since you fell from grace?
Thanks for sharing your story and i'm sorry it has a sad ending.

Thanks for disclosing, Klassified. I very much appreciate hearing it (and the others' too)...it helps me with an overall picture of the state of humanty.

My story is not heart-wrenching, nor did I experience poverty, abuse, or evangelical thumping. We were Episcopalians -- my dad participated only nominally on holidays, my mom took us every week.

At about age 7 I started wondering what it was I was doing wrong, or not doing that I was supposed to...and why I wasn't worthy to gather up crumbs, even!

I was never told I was going to hell....but the service itself made me feel like a was a complete and utter failure. That loss of self-esteem, and the nebulous "rules", and continually admitting to God I had done things wrong and had failed to do things I was supposed to do....
injured me profoundly. But I internalized it (like I good little girl)...and went through some years of drug use, sexual activity, etc.... looking for love through sex. Yeah, so...

anyway, the dogma just never added up for me. What was wrong with me? I tried to be a good girl, I knew I was nice, and helpful...yet still I was a useless sinner every Sunday. I quit going to that emotionally abusive, psychologically abusive weekly dose of shame as soon as I could.

Who wants to hang out with people who don't know anything about how you live your life, but once a week remind you of what a piece of crap you are anyway??

Plus, I never bought the resurrection story, or the miracles. Just too preposterous. So, I started looking around for alternatives. Still looking, but I know for certain that the organized Christianity sects to which I've been exposed are not worthwhile places to seek.

Jesus' message of altruism, sure. No problem. Got that covered, it's part of my personality anyway. Recently I've been reading that it was Paul who introduced the "all of humanity" concept into Jesus' theme. I still think JC was only talking to the tribes of Israel and their society.

By the time I was 16, I'd stopped going altogether unless it was a holiday -- to keep Mom satisfied. Even after I left home, I went to an Easter sunrise service once...but, I just never felt the fervor.

The music at holidays (classical organ, hymnal stuff), along with the Hallelujah chorus or whatever Christmas hymns were able to stir my soul, certainly. I was in the choir for years. My mom was the acolyte director. She had been born with a religious zeal that stood her well for over 60 years. Then, she lost interest. She says now, that part of her has died. We both believe in God, but have no church-going urge whatsoever.

The upside is that we both read voraciously, and share books with one another that speak to theology and religion. We are able to have fabulous conversations about the subject, which is endlessly fascinating in all its various colors, shapes, and sizes.

I raised my two kids with an awareness of religion, and introduced them to my own Protestant upbringing, as well as alternative philosophies, neopaganism (Drawing Down the Moon, like you said...wow, that one got me going for several years into the Wiccan practcice)..also studied Buddhism, the Tao, and the Urantia Book. I started looking into reincarnation also, having come to the suspicion as a child that we keep coming back til we get it right, and discovered all of the less-well-known parts of Christianity that promote it. I have attended "baptist revivals", Methodist services, Catholic funerals/burials, and seen hotel roof-top mass baptisms.

Often I've wondered what I lack that I cannot feel that same ecstasy as those who seem to experience it. But, all my life, I've been aware of a self-awareness...even as a little kid...being aware that "I'm more than this body -- what am I doing here?" and from time to time I get the "expanded head" feeling, like I can feel my own aura. I believe completely in eternal existence; in reincarnation, in the Universalist thinking that we will all get there...and most of all, that we each have to find our own way. No other person can travel our road with us.

Make no mistake, I've endured much pain, angst, shame, confusion, grief, and trouble, in my own way. Once, while in the midst of an anxiety attack in which I was terrified that I was about to self-destruct, I felt a hand on my shoulder saying "You don't want to die. You will be fine. Relax." That was enough for me. Spirit guides, angels, a Divine Source, a Oneness that we all are parts of -- those are the things I believe in. We will all get there. Hell does not exist except in the mind of those who know their own crimes and wrong-doings. Karma is real.

The Tibetan Book of the Dead makes very good sense to me.

Anyway, there you go! Self-disclosure. Some are afraid of it, for good reasons. Some say one should never do it. I've long outgrown that. If my experience can help someone else, then cool. That's my gig here. Helping where I can.

Namaste

reply to post by Klassified


OK, let me rephrase the question.

Do you have to be focused to tap into collective consciousness?

Is collective consciousness spontaneous?

reply to post by deadeyedick

Not as much as when I was in the church to be sure. Though it wasn't exactly happening all the time there either. But what I have seen has been just as amazing. And lasting usually. Unlike some of the times I was asked by people in the church why their healing didn't last. Not always an easy question to answer, especially when that person is deeply hurt emotionally. Of course, it's always their own fault the healing didn't last. Or they weren't really healed to start with. That's what the church often teaches anyway.

A good question. Thanks.

Oops. Almost forgot. For me at least, the ending is very happy. I feel freer now than I've ever felt. As well, I don't have the sword of Damocles hanging over my head.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Klassified

 

OK, let me rephrase the question.

Do you have to be focused to tap into collective consciousness?

Is collective consciousness spontaneous?

Either or both really. It is more like intuition IMO. Women seem to have a natural proclivity toward it. Men have to work at it usually.

reply to post by wildtimes

What an awesome post. A lot of things there I can relate to. Thanks for sharing that.

I was never told I was going to hell....but the service itself made me feel like a was a complete and utter failure. That loss of self-esteem, and the nebulous "rules", and continually admitting to God I had done things wrong and had failed to do things I was supposed to do.... injured me profoundly. But I internalized it (like I good little girl)...and went through some years of drug use, sexual activity, etc.... looking for love through sex. Yeah, so...

anyway, the dogma just never added up for me. What was wrong with me? I tried to be a good girl, I knew I was nice, and helpful...yet still I was a useless sinner every Sunday. I quit going to that emotionally abusive, psychologically abusive weekly dose of shame as soon as I could.

Who wants to hang out with people who don't know anything about how you live your life, but once a week remind you of what a piece of crap you are anyway??

I can't count the times I've heard this from without and within the church. This is part of that double-bind you and I were talking about.

On the one hand "our righteous acts are like filthy rags" Isaiah 64:6
And on the other hand we "are of more value than many sparrows" Matt. 10:31

And other such verses I could contrast. Thanks Wildtimes, great points to bring out.

reply to post by Klassified

On the one hand "our righteous acts are like filthy rags" Isaiah 64:6 And on the other hand we "are of more value than many sparrows" Matt. 10:31

Just curious, does using Cartesian Skepticism to analyze the flip side to every coin ever mentally or spiritually leave you feeling drained?!