I solved the immigration problem...ok, maybe I didn't, but Rome sure as h*** did!

Howdy community...

Well, I just thought I'd put out there something I've been saying for years but never really formalized (just mentioned amongst family and friends who already think I'm daft). Honestly though, I think I've a fix for all the immigration problems and debates that we're so mired in here.

Firstly, we remove the word 'illegal' from the vocabulary of the debate and we swing wide open our borders. I know, I know, right now there are many people grabbing paper towels to remove the spittle from their screens as a result of the spit-take they just did having read that, but I'm completely serious. Above I say that Rome solved this problem, and I think that's true. Rome didn't have closed borders, and they didn't have illegal immigrants either, they simply had citizen and non-citizen. Now then, being a Roman citizen was a BIG DEAL! People paid huge sums of money to gain citizenship, performed great acts of sacrifice and the like. You've heard the saying, membership has it's privilages...well citizenship had its privilages. Let's look briefly at the Bible (please, I'm not taking this into a religious thread debate, this is to further my point). In Acts, when Paul is getting his butt kicked up and down for his testimony, he is often wildly mistreated. Look at what happens when, after his mistreatment, TPTB find out he's a Roman citizen. They freak out! Holy hell...we can't treat a Roman citizen this way! Citizenship was powerful, it meant something.

And that's what we've lost here in America. Throw wide the gate and let whoever would come, come. Let the market decide whether they've a place here or not. We whine about Mexicans stealing our jobs, but are they really? How many typing their complaints about a Mexican stealing their job has really been kicked off the farm picking fruit?? If you're typing this on your laptop, most likely it doesn't apply to you.

So, control our borders with documentation, chart who is entering and leaving, but don't make an illegal of a human being. Give them credentials, the right to drive, the right to seek employment, but not the privilages of citizenship. Let no funds of the state be dispersed to them, for the funds of the state is the wealth of the citizenry. Neither let their children be granted automatic citizenship through virture of birth, which only serves to confuse the issue. Stop deportation save for those who we DO NOT WANT HERE! Drug dealers, gang members, criminals, those who are a detriment to our society.

I think of our nation as our home, and as masters of our home (the citizenry) we should be gracious and hospitable hosts. We should welcome others into our home who have come to work for the improvement of our grounds with a joyous and open heart. But, we must also be defenders of our home, as any man would defend his home against those who would seek to cause damage and hurt or corrupt our family and children. Swing wide the gates...and let the people mingle.

Discrimination, Inequality and further class seperation will most likely be the result.

Ancient Rome had quite a few uprising no? They had the ability to quell such revolts through strong military presence. So unless you are planning to institute a policy that allows the military to gun down “non-citizens” as you call it, to prevent such things, I don’t think this idea is in line with the modern ideals of America.

Stop deportation save for those who we DO NOT WANT HERE! Drug dealers, gang members, criminals, those who are a detriment to our society.

reply to post by BBobb


Don't you think the above-listed folks would be the first to come if we "opened the gates"? Plenty are already here! Criminals are very opportunistic and America offers a wealth of opportunities.

reply to post by MDDoxs


All societies have problems, and it's a stretch to say I advocate gunning down non citizens, actually an abismal stretch. But, we must face our problems and deal with them. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Well, this isn't working, is it? For one, immigration is bankrupting us...that's just ludicrous. California is basically done because they've given more to the immigrants than the citizenry. Often, in fact, it would seem that immigrants are extended super privilages with ease of beaurocracy and dispersal of funds or amnesty from payment where citizens are not afforded these same privilages. Well, that's a society that is just done for...you can't run a home like that.

Originally posted by capod2t

Stop deportation save for those who we DO NOT WANT HERE! Drug dealers, gang members, criminals, those who are a detriment to our society.

reply to post by BBobb

 

Don't you think the above-listed folks would be the first to come if we "opened the gates"? Plenty are already here! Criminals are very opportunistic and America offers a wealth of opportunities.

Ha! Sure, but how is that different? It just means that law enforcement actually gets to do their job in the open without all the PC business mucking things up. I think of what you've said above (by the way, I'm not attacking your points, just responding to them) the same way I think about marijuana being a gateway drug. It's a gateway drug because it's illegal. Is alcohol a gateway drug? No, because you don't need to associate with drug dealer to get a beer. But, when you have to go to drug dealer to get a joint, you get exposed to other things that you wouldn't otherwise be exposed to ( I think I might make a separate thread about this issue, it's been on my heart). But, when you make living in America "illegal", you get the same thing. Just legalize immigration, and then stop all the other non-sense.

Originally posted by BBobb
reply to post by MDDoxs

 

All societies have problems, and it's a stretch to say I advocate gunning down non citizens, actually an abismal stretch. But, we must face our problems and deal with them. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Well, this isn't working, is it? For one, immigration is bankrupting us...that's just ludicrous. California is basically done because they've given more to the immigrants than the citizenry. Often, in fact, it would seem that immigrants are extended super privilages with ease of beaurocracy and dispersal of funds or amnesty from payment where citizens are not afforded these same privilages. Well, that's a society that is just done for...you can't run a home like that.

You clearly stated that you wished to emulate ancient Rome's policy on immigrant issues, to control a empire as vast as the Romans at its peak, the threat of violence was a constant and was used on many occasions....SPARTACUS!!!!!!...So my parallel to modern America is exactly in line with your reasoning.

Originally posted by BBobb
reply to post by MDDoxs

 

All societies have problems, and it's a stretch to say I advocate gunning down non citizens, actually an abismal stretch. But, we must face our problems and deal with them. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Well, this isn't working, is it?

We haven't tried mining the border yet. Not really advocating it, just sayin'.

There was a thread recently that said we should treat illegal immigrants according their own countries laws. That makes sense to me. Most countries have VERY strict immigration laws and the penalties can be quite stiff, if not deadly.

And that way, you can apply the Citizen vs. non-citizen rule as well.

There are many, many apple orchards here where I live.

Every year, migrant farm workers - almost all of them Mexican - come to pick the apples. Some are legal. Some are illegal.

An article was done about them in the local paper. Of course it centered around the "Hurp-a-durp they done took muh job!" angle. Turns out, what the owners of the orchards had to say didn't line up. They said that every year they put ads in the paper for pickers. You know how many star spangled American citizens line up for the job? Hardly any. The few who do? They do the (hard) work for a day or two and never come back.

The fact is, these workers do jobs that the average coddled, lazy American refuses to do.

But I guess it's easier to demonize them than it is to look at our own laziness and lack of a work ethic.

Originally posted by MDDoxs

Originally posted by BBobb
reply to post by MDDoxs

 

All societies have problems, and it's a stretch to say I advocate gunning down non citizens, actually an abismal stretch. But, we must face our problems and deal with them. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Well, this isn't working, is it? For one, immigration is bankrupting us...that's just ludicrous. California is basically done because they've given more to the immigrants than the citizenry. Often, in fact, it would seem that immigrants are extended super privilages with ease of beaurocracy and dispersal of funds or amnesty from payment where citizens are not afforded these same privilages. Well, that's a society that is just done for...you can't run a home like that.

You clearly stated that you wished to emulate ancient Rome's policy on immigrant issues, to control a empire as vast as the Romans at its peak, the threat of violence was a constant and was used on many occasions....SPARTACUS!!!!!!...So my parallel to modern America is exactly in line with your reasoning.

edit on 27-6-2012 by MDDoxs because: (no reason given)

Oh yes, I see now. You win. You big, me small. You smart, me dumb.

Originally posted by jtap66
There are many, many apple orchards here where I live.

Every year, migrant farm workers - almost all of them Mexican - come to pick the apples. Some are legal. Some are illegal.

An article was done about them in the local paper. Of course it centered around the "Hurp-a-durp they done took muh job!" angle. Turns out, what the owners of the orchards had to say didn't line up. They said that every year they put ads in the paper for pickers. You know how many star spangled American citizens line up for the job? Hardly any. The few who do? They do the (hard) work for a day or two and never come back.

The fact is, these workers do jobs that the average coddled, lazy American refuses to do.

But I guess it's easier to demonize them than it is to look at our own laziness and lack of a work ethic.

Exactly. So I hope that you know I agree with you 100% (couldn't quite tell from your post), but yeah, let people come and work. Don't make them hide and feel threatened, all that, that's silly. Let them work, pay taxes, all that, but without the benefits afforded to citizens.

Originally posted by BBobb
Howdy community...


And that's what we've lost here in America. Throw wide the gate and let whoever would come, come. Let the market decide whether they've a place here or not. We whine about Mexicans stealing our jobs, but are they really? How many typing their complaints about a Mexican stealing their job has really been kicked off the farm picking fruit?? If you're typing this on your laptop, most likely it doesn't apply to you.

It applies to me. I used to own a landscaping company. It costs more each year to do business. A cost I passed on to my customers as yearly price increases. Then the illegals came here. They work for nothing. So companies that hire them have lower costs. They can charge less for the same job. I am NOT going to hire a mexican for anything. Period. Thus people started firing me and hiring these low cost traitors. Now I am out on the street looking for a job. (Tell me how to get a job when my resume says "18 years self employed cutting grass". I can't even get fast food to hire me) I have been affected by the illegals. My life has been ruined because of them. They took my job. I hate them for it. All I ever wanted was to work for myself. But I can't do that anymore thanks to illegals. Why don't I just hire a few and forget my principals? Too late for that. Not enough work to pay myself, much less anyone else.

reply to post by TDawgRex


An interesting notion you have there, but something fundamentally offensive about yielding to another country's laws, just make appropriate and sensical, applicable and pragmatic laws here that we can enforce. I started this thread because I was just reading about Arizona and Scalia was saying that it's all mad because we have these laws on the books and are then telling Arizona they can't enforce them. Well, that's right then. You have to have laws that make sense that are enforced.

reply to post by Ookie


Well, that's what I'm saying. If they weren't "illegal" then the market could find balance, wage restrictions could be applied, things like that that would endorse competitiveness. But, when you make them "illegal", people will take advantage of their desparation...

Basically if you want to prevent immigrant workers from stealing your jobs then stop being so lazy. They know the value of money but most overpriviledged american don't. Just remember, the real threat aren't the illegal immigrants but the people offering them the jobs and if the governement thought it were such a serious problem they'd start deporting them to jail.

reply to post by BBobb


We took all the worst things about a Republic and magnified them and we left what good there was behind. I agree with you we should use the Republic of Rome in it's best years as a model for ourselves. I also think you have an excellent plan.
Some people want to "close the barn door and don't let no fur-en-ners in. We don't need no more, we're happy with what we got rite chair with momma and the pigs."
And everyone doesn't exactly agree with them but they are loud and unfortunately, they are Americans.

i think its freakin hilarious watching and hearing the racists get all riled up over this, especially the ones who have never contributed a damn thing.

Originally posted by BBobb
reply to post by TDawgRex

 

An interesting notion you have there, but something fundamentally offensive about yielding to another country's laws, just make appropriate and sensical, applicable and pragmatic laws here that we can enforce. I started this thread because I was just reading about Arizona and Scalia was saying that it's all mad because we have these laws on the books and are then telling Arizona they can't enforce them. Well, that's right then. You have to have laws that make sense that are enforced.

That is the problem with today's US. Instead of enforcing the laws on the books, they keep making up new ones. New laws that often conflict with the original law.

It seems that we are all criminals now in some form or another nowadays.

But if someone who knew they would be subject to the same immigration law that someone entering their country of origin would face, maybe they'd think twice before crossing the border.

America has some of the most lenient immigration laws in the world. It's time we changed that.

We used to have a drug problem in Holland, so we leaglise. Now there is no problem.

reply to post by BBobb


Totally agree. Right now if you stumble across boarders accidentally you are "illegal" and no person should be deemed a criminal for straying across a border. Preposterous. It is a big planet.

Originally posted by TDawgRex

Originally posted by BBobb
reply to post by TDawgRex

 

An interesting notion you have there, but something fundamentally offensive about yielding to another country's laws, just make appropriate and sensical, applicable and pragmatic laws here that we can enforce. I started this thread because I was just reading about Arizona and Scalia was saying that it's all mad because we have these laws on the books and are then telling Arizona they can't enforce them. Well, that's right then. You have to have laws that make sense that are enforced.

That is the problem with today's US. Instead of enforcing the laws on the books, they keep making up new ones. New laws that often conflict with the original law.

It seems that we are all criminals now in some form or another nowadays.

But if someone who knew they would be subject to the same immigration law that someone entering their country of origin would face, maybe they'd think twice before crossing the border.

America has some of the most lenient immigration laws in the world. It's time we changed that.

We should change them - if all of a sudden we are afraid.

And it appears as though we are....