Benevolent Intelligent ET Lifeforms Are A Pipedream

Originally posted by Serraphina
I understand the penchant for people to want to liken Christ and Buddha and other spiritual leaders to ET. However, we at some time, gotta stop looking up, and start looking at each other. If we need someone to come down and save us from ourselves- again, benevolent or not - we are in trouble. They already told us in our religions, that we wouldn't like revelations should they need to make themselves known again.

Humans have a long history of creating imaginary people and bestowing on them human-like qualities. But isn't it very telling that when you ask them to imagine the undesirable qualities we as a collective possess on their fantasies and higher ideals, the ideas becomes repugnant. I can't say I blame anyone. Although, I believe optimism is certainly valuable, until it becomes a veil that clouds our perspectives.

Benevolently, us gone off this planet - extinct, would be the most compassionate thing to do.

I'm not sure I'd call it compassionate, but it would certainly be quite the sacrifice.

I just think an advanced race of sentient beings might not look very kindly on us - not that their malevolent per see - likely simply at a loss as to what to do with us.

And they might think we are very tasty, even a rare delicacy.

i found this video very interesting, the truth about ufo,s aliens, draws from cred able researchers , worth watching makes some very good valid points, its all a conspiracy.



www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by lordaqua
We beings "down here" are from successful and we can only fathom what a species that has achieved free energy and space travel is like and what it took to make such astonishing breakthroughs.

I'm not just fathoming though. I can make some comparisons, and using not just ourselves, but other creatures on our planet as a reference, and I would make a fair guess based on this evidence, that if we had both of those technologies and could go to other planets, we would just do the whole thing all over again.

I just don't think intelligent ET creatures (like ourselves) are capable of ever viewing each other as 'equal', as it's certainly not our instinctual behavior to do so. Do any other social animals on this planet exhibit that behavior? Are you going to just mate with anyone in this magical society because you are all 'equal'? Lots I guess? Is free energy and space travel somehow going to curb our recklessness as a species in regards to how we treat our environments? I have my doubts. We would still be valuing certain territories, tearing them up, and fighting over them, in my humble opinion.

With that said using humans and the way that they operate as somehow a gauge for measuring or quantifying the evolution of another "hypothetical" species is full of holes.

It's full of holes, but I wouldn't relegate it to pseudo-science. Nothing I have presented is unreasonable or illogical. And again, I must point out how people naturally are resistant to the idea.

Originally posted by renegadeloser
reply to post by Balkan

 

Humans haven't really become organized to a point that we can conquer space in any valuable way.

Money and political nonsense are the only things stopping us. Where do these behaviors come from?? Was the 'conquer space' a freudian slip or are you just trying to amuse me? I'll take any evidence I can get.

It seems we need some revolutionary shift in behavior before we will be able to work together, with open minds.

As history reveals, revolutionary shifts are part of our cycle, but notice we always arrive back to square one. Square one is very interesting.

One way in which we could do that is to adopt an ethic of universal brotherhood, and ever expanding knowledge. Such a race would have the capacity to truly escape their planet, and would likely be benevolent.

edit on 26-6-2012 by renegadeloser because: (no reason given)

They would argue over something and the 'brotherhood' would fall apart at some point. No 'brotherhood' lasts forever.

Originally posted by InternetGremlin
I'd lay odds the drake equation is far to low, that there are millions of self aware beings here in our own galaxy.

If there are so many, then where are they? Have they all graciously agreed to leave us alone? No dissenters among the millions? Or are we the protected pets of a Galactic Federation of just a few of them?

As for the Drake Equation, if any of the many variables equals zero, then the entire equation equals zero. That narrows the odds down to either none, some, or a lot. Very useful.

Originally posted by Balkan
I'd point out at this point that this idea never seems to be popular among UFO buffs.

Some people like to be optimistic. If they exist (which is questionable), I tend to agree with you. And the problem with open contact with an alien intelligence doesn't even have to be that they're aggressive or predatory. They could be really, really nice and it will still essentially bring us nothing but destruction. Anybody hoping for a fun ride on a flying saucer or a tune up of their vibrations so they can go sit with Jesus is likely to be sorely disappointed.

It might have been a good idea at one time to keep to ourselves and not do anything that would draw their attention. But it's too late now. All we can do now is really hope that they aren't out there.

I know that this might not SEEM to have anything to do with the conversation - but,

Lets look at the example of pigs. Now when a domesticated pig is set free into the wild, it takes less than two weeks to convert back into a wild boar. The animal will grow tusks, wiry hair on it's head and down it's back, and the snout will grow longer. It will literally change form. This is true of most animals. Dogs, cats, etc...

Humans - don't. Yes we are a living being, but we are distinct from other animals. We don't revert to a wilder form when our domestic conveniences are taken away. A survival instinct, or baser instincts are present yes, but mankind has moved on to a level where we do temper ourselves. It's not the wild west where humans go around and do whatever it is they feel like. Animals do, however.

For example, a combat medic is on the front lines. Instinctively, this medic may want to flee, but he doesn't. Why? Because we are NOT controlled by our baser instincts. We are different. Why??? But we are.

Maybe ET is more like the pig - than us. Space is NOT a cozy place to call home. It's wild, dangerous, and vast. It's all conjecture of course, just a thought.

~ Serra

Originally posted by SuperFrog
From what we already know, if they wanted invasion, we would already live in earth concentration camp... working for them... (who said we already are not doing exactly that, without even knowing it?)

Possible. But that would suggest that there are very few of them, or they're all of the same mind. Imagine if Earth consisted of not just a few hundred countries, but a million, all vying for what could be scarce resources or territory. That would make it difficult for one batch to quietly keep control of us.

I keep thinking there is nobody else out there. We're the only game in town. There are singular things in the universe. Maybe we're one of them. It's not sad or arrogant. Just an observation, given the available data.

Originally posted by Serraphina
...We don't revert to a wilder form when our domestic conveniences are taken away...

You've never been to a football match then!

Originally posted by Serraphina
I know that this might not SEEM to have anything to do with the conversation - but,

But it does.

Lets look at the example of pigs. Now when a domesticated pig is set free into the wild, it takes less than two weeks to convert back into a wild boar. The animal will grow tusks, wiry hair on it's head and down it's back, and the snout will grow longer. It will literally change form. This is true of most animals. Dogs, cats, etc...

Humans - don't.

The boar simply possesses an evolutionary mechanism that allows them to assimilate more easily back into nature. We have one too. It's called a brain. All creatures can adapt.

Yes we are a living being, but we are distinct from other animals. We don't revert to a wilder form when our domestic conveniences are taken away.

Nonsense. Given time and evolutionary variables, we could adapt. Why couldn't we? Sorry, more and more scientific evidence is showing that we are not so distinct from animals after all. In fact, we are realizing that many of the key attributes that we thought seperated us from the rest of the animal kingdom are simply not true. Animals reason, go to war, think thru problems, show empathy, have self-awareness...etc etc. As I said before, the ethical considerations for how our race has treated life will eventually have to be addressed, and these ugly truths, such as I've addressed in this very thread, will further come to life (imo).

A survival instinct, or baser instincts are present yes, but mankind has moved on to a level where we do temper ourselves. It's not the wild west where humans go around and do whatever it is they feel like. Animals do, however.

I couldn't disagree more. Turn off the electricity for a few months and see how civilized we remain.

For example, a combat medic is on the front lines. Instinctively, this medic may want to flee, but he doesn't. Why? Because we are NOT controlled by our baser instincts. We are different. Why??? But we are.

None of them ever fled? heh I would argue that when the survival instinct really kicks in, noone can predict what their behavior will be. Like I said, morals disappear really quickly in a panicked, angry crowd.

Well, OP the problem is you are equating intelligence with being a predator. There really is no reason to assume that that is the truth. The fact is we have no other intelligent animals on this planet to compare and contrast with. In fact until we meet other intelligent beings from out there we will not have anyone to compare and contrast ourselves with and to examine all the possible variations of intelligent life.

In fact continuing with the line of reasoning that predator=intelligence the fact is we aren't really the best predator on the planet; our senses suck, our bone and muscle density and strength is a joke compared to other animals. In fact the only reason we are the apex predator of the planet is because we are intelligent, we discovered fire and were able to make tools; spears, swords guns etc which gave us an edge over other predators. Without our intelligence the big cats and other predators would be eating us for breakfast, lunch and dinner. No we are not intelligent because we are the apex predator, we are the apex predator because we are intelligent.

Another problem with your theory is anthropomorphism. You are basically saying because mankind is a certain way then other intelligent beings must be the same way, but there is no evidence or reason for that opinion. The fact is intelligence is what would allow a species to move off their planet and there is no reason that on other planets non predatory animals could develop intelligence. In fact you could have a species of tool making intelligent herbivores who would still develop science technology and leave their planet. They also would more then likely not be very predatory.

Finally in closing I would like to say that your idea of predatory destructive aliens coming to kill us and pillage our planet is a pipe dream as well. It's kind of like a boogy man tale people tell themselves to bolster humanities own self importance, since we think we are the best thing in the universe. I mean think about it surely if their is intelligent life out their it will fly across the great gulfs of space to fight a war with us and steal our planet...because we and are planet are the most important thing in the universe. Really the sad truth is that if there are intelligent aliens even if they are predatory in nature, they are not coming here to kill us and take our stuff, it's just not intelligent. I mean they would literally have to fly across great expanses of space, passing suns, planets, moons and asteroids containing every resource found on this planet in abundance for the sole purpose of coming here to kick our butts and take what tiny bit of resources our rather small planet holds.

Sounds like a scary campfire tale to me, but just my opinion.

Originally posted by prisoneronashipoffools
Well, OP the problem is you are equating intelligence with being a predator. There really is no reason to assume that that is the truth.

I never assumed it was the truth. I'm just making observable comparisons and showing similarities.

The fact is we have no other intelligent animals on this planet to compare and contrast with.

We have us? We shouldn't we examine ourselves in this argument?

In fact until we meet other intelligent beings from out there we will not have anyone to compare and contrast ourselves with and to examine all the possible variations of intelligent life.

There is just no reason I can find why we can't at least examine ourselves and other intelligent creatures on the planet and make some guesses and come up with some ideas.

No we are not intelligent because we are the apex predator, we are the apex predator because we are intelligent.

Then by your logic all fairly intelligent creatures on the planet should rank very high on the foodchain, which can be shown to be false. In fact, the opposite can be shown to be true.

Another problem with your theory is anthropomorphism. You are basically saying because mankind is a certain way then other intelligent beings must be the same way, but there is no evidence or reason for that opinion.

I think I've covered this enough. If that's how you want to interpret my presentation, so be it.

The fact is intelligence is what would allow a species to move off their planet

But for what reason did evolution design them for leaving a planet? heh Not that I consider this the gospel, let's say for argument's sake?

and there is no reason that on other planets non predatory animals could develop intelligence.

Not sure how this has any relevance to my argument. Of course non-predatory animals can develop intelligence. We can see it occur right here on earth.

In fact you could have a species of tool making intelligent herbivores who would still develop science technology and leave their planet. They also would more then likely not be very predatory.

Is it fact? I'm not so certain. I've given what I think are plausible arguments that suggest it could very likely be the other way around. In fact, I even have one nice bit of evidence to back up my ideas a little. Human beings; a predator species that developed the technology to enable them to leave the planet. There is no current evidence for any intelligent herbivore who ever developed the same abilites.

But my idea must be fantasy and could not be plausible?? heh

Please.

Finally in closing I would like to say that your idea of predatory destructive aliens coming to kill us and pillage our planet is a pipe dream as well.

Fair enough. I think your perspective is naive and not well thought out. Nothing personal, just discussion.

because we and are planet are the most important thing in the universe.

I've never presented us in such a light.

Really the sad truth is that if there are intelligent aliens even if they are predatory in nature, they are not coming here to kill us and take our stuff, it's just not intelligent.

Well, I'm glad you've settled it, for us.

reply to post by Balkan


Nonsense. Our current technology hasn't been around for as long as we have. We were and would still be quite capable of surviving in nature without electricity or other modern conveniences, and we would still not revert back into the Neanderthal! How long do you honestly think electricity has been around? Do you really think all those tribes in Africa, the rain forest, have electricity? Because not all of them do. They are civilized. You might not think so when you compare your circumstances with theirs...

As to the soldier fleeing - it was just an example of how humans overcome instinct. Kind of like the firefighter, rushing into the burning building to save another person's life at great risk to their own. Instinct would tell you to stay out of the fire, but we overcome it, and still act.

But overall, I think your thread is a fair opinion. If ET exists - I'm rather inclined to agree that they would have many emotions - not just be benevolent.

~ Serra

Originally posted by Balkan
reply to post by InternetGremlin

 

Where in all that do you think I claimed we were alone? I find it highly unlikely we are alone.

edit on 26-6-2012 by Balkan because: (no reason given)

Your Post is narrow minded because you ignore all of the discussions of the alien agenda, which are really hidden by the illusion of space traveling aliens!

I only skimmed through your text but felt the need to reply as I absolutely do not agree with most of what you have said.

First of all, the destructive nature of humans is NOT instinct, it's socially driven, humans are being guided, by who, I don't know, and it doesn't matter either, wether it's illuminati, reptilians, or the invisible hand, I do not care, but it is obvious that what is happening to our planet is not the choice of the majority, if you ask any given stranger if he likes killing innocent people in phony wars the answer will be NO 99.99% of the time. The fact that we do not protest against what we obviously dislike can again be explained through society, psychology is very clear on this. Conformity is the way to go, and you're highly unlikely to protest something others have accepted to be reality.

Back to instinct; A lion is purely driven by instinct. Do you see lions rounding up herds of deer to kill because it can? Does it enjoy killing more than it needs? No, a lion kills to feed itself, and when it's full, the need to kill is gone. This is how all of nature works, every animal seems to have this built in logic to not take more than it needs, except for humans. And we're the superior species on this planet? Lmfao... We have the POTENTIAL to be, but at the moment, we're far from it. We happen to be the only species that is actively destroying the planet and fully aware of it, this goes against every other rule of nature and thus, in my opinion, can not be explained as simply being a natural thing. We eat, sleep, f*ck and fart like other animals do, but when we gained the ability to project ourselves into the future, something drastically changed, and it will continue to change, only for the better (I will continue further on about this).

What's the real problem? The ego which is inside every human being, driving them to only care about the self (hence ego-ism, living for the self). Animals don't have egos like ours, they live in the present, therefor there is no need for them to care about the future, or fulfilling desires beyond the now,... We, on the other hand, are capable of doing exactly that, and it's what occupies most of our time on this earth. People have forgotten that the only reality is NOW, not tomorrow, not next year, not last year and not 10 years ago, they are all illusions, created by the ego, because it can never be satisfied, hence why it needs to project itself into the future and the past in order to continue it's own existence. Realizing this is the first step in realizing that you are NOT your ego, you can observe the ego, you can observe the mind, and in doing so, you're something other than the mind or the ego, you're starting to reach a higher form of consciousness, one where you realize you're not the individual thing your ego wants you to believe you are.

You are 100% dependent on everything around you. Without the sun, there is no light, there is no food, there is nothing. Without the water, there is no life, without the air, you can't breath, without the flora, you wouldn't be here, without every single human being that has ever lived before you, you wouldn't be here either,... Your ego needs you to forget this, so you can focus on what YOU want, all the while ignoring/forgetting that what YOU want is only possible thanks to everything else on this planet.

It is my belief that beyond the ego lies a wonderful place, I have been there and many others have too. It's a place of higher consciousness, and if we don't off ourselves, it can be reached without a doubt. The only thing that is standing in the way is the human ego. Think about it, what drives people to steal, murder, lie, abuse, ...? The ego. Whether it's for personal gain, feeling good about yourself, whatever, it's the ego that's driving it. When we evolve, and we're in the process I believe, we will become aware of this, finally

Also, if humans are horrible creatures, explain to me why there are so many examples that show that humans can be wonderful beings? The Dalai Lama comes to mind for example (who also teaches what I'm trying to formulate in my own words here). What makes him different? Higher consciousness, beyond the ego He doesn't need a fancy car to feel good, or the latest trend in fashion, or the newest iphony, he possesses the greatest gift there is; knowing his true nature.


Now, in case you hadn't connected the dots yet; I'm 99.99% that any alien life form capable of traveling to other galaxies, is also capable of (and probably already has) reaching that higher level of consciousness, where they live beyond the ego and managed to get rid of it. No civilization that is dominated by ego-driven individuals would make it to the point where (the needed) advanced technology is possible, they would off themselves before they ever left their own galaxy.

So no, BET are not impossible, not even unlikely, they would need to evolve as a species before they can reach us.

Per your original OP about ETs by nature being predators:
Such a narrow view you have on the development of HUMAN life.
Do you have any idea of what the human mind is capable of on the positive side?
Do you have any idea of what the real meaning of the term "spiritual enlightenment" means?
I'll answer that for you. No, you don't.

True, Nature is nature. Dog eat dog. Big fish eat little fish. But guess what? At some point in evolution consciousness results. Nature takes a back seat to what consciousness can comprehend. The view of the Universe by a truly conscious being is no longer seen not as a place for a happy meal but as a connected structure that defies and will always defy the mind of man.

You evidently think that we are at the peak of our development, that we cannot evolve beyond what we are today. How terribly, terribly foolish. To assume that any ETs will be wanting to exploit us is fear mongering. Such a view is based upon nothing but a focus of where we have been with saveragry and barbarianism and not where we are headed. That destination is where truly intelligent beings will exist in near god-like wonder, perhaps not as equals, but with something in common.

I never assumed it was the truth. I'm just making observable comparisons and showing similarities.

We have us? We shouldn't we examine ourselves in this argument?

There is just no reason I can find why we can't at least examine ourselves and other intelligent creatures on the planet and make some guesses and come up with some ideas.

reply to post by Balkan


Of course you can examine us and make hypothesis and theories based on it, you must also acknowledge that they are anthropocentric and probably flawed and there is no reason intelligent life elsewhere will necessarily be the same as us.

Then by your logic all fairly intelligent creatures on the planet should rank very high on the foodchain, which can be shown to be false. In fact, the opposite can be shown to be true.

And by your logic then other predators directly below us in the food chain should be more intelligent, but they also are not. In Africa a lion is directly below us on the food chain right at the top, lions are not near as intelligent as us, they aren't making tools and discovering science. Even dolphins and other "intelligent" animals are not intelligent as us they also are not making tools and discovering science. It is our innate ability to do those things that make us an apex predator. It is what makes humans unique on this planet, how exactly we got that ability is anyone's guess, random evolution or etc, but I would say we didn't get it because we were the apex predator, we became the apex predator because we have it and others didn't.

But for what reason did evolution design them for leaving a planet? heh Not that I consider this the gospel, let's say for argument's sake?

Well, first of all that is assuming evolution has a reason for making any creature any specific way, but since we are speculating and for arguments sake, why wouldn't evolution make a species that could leave the planet and spread life and seeds to other worlds? It's kind of like asking why evolution gave some plants the ability to spread their seed far on the winds to distant places. If there is a reason it is probably nothing more or less then spreading life as far and wide as possible.

Also not only predatory creatures migrate by nature, most herbivores do as well, in fact most predators only migrate to follow herbivores. The need for migration and spreading out could be a drive that would push a non predatory species into space.

Also I would say since we are looking at the human race and extrapolating then I would say our species kind of stands as a testament to predatory drives not only being not necessary for space exploration but actually a hindrance. After all one of the main reasons we are moving so slowly towards space travel is because we are still to busy, engaged in predatory tribal war games and beating each other over the heads for diminishing resources. Using that, one could argue our predatory drive is actually holding us back.

Fair enough. I think your perspective is naive and not well thought out. Nothing personal, just discussion.

Cool you can think it is naive. I think your position is naive and not well thought out as well, especially since you never addressed or rebutted the fact that in order for an alien species to come here, they have to come from at least another solar system in another part of the galaxy and in doing so would pass many planets, moons and asteroids, that have far more resources then our planet. So why exactly would they pass up vast amounts of resources to come all the way here to take our small amount of resources? It doesn't really make any sense even if they are predatory. Why would even predators expend great deals of time and energy to get a small amount of hard to get resources when their are much vaster and more easily obtainable resources closer on their way.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Anyway thanks for the response.

Originally posted by ThisIsNotReality
First of all, the destructive nature of humans is NOT instinct, it's socially driven.

It is, but those social urges are instinctual. heh

humans are being guided, by who

or what: instinctual behavior

The fact that we do not protest against what we obviously dislike can again be explained through society, psychology is very clear on this.

Conformity is the way to go

Not in my jungle, it isn't.

Back to instinct; A lion is purely driven by instinct. Do you see lions rounding up herds of deer to kill because it can? Does it enjoy killing more than it needs? No, a lion kills to feed itself, and when it's full, the need to kill is gone. This is how all of nature works, every animal seems to have this built in logic to not take more than it needs, except for humans.

Nonsense. There are many species of animals that store food. For example, a bear will bury food for later.

And we're the superior species on this planet?

I don't think I ever described us that way. I said we are the apex predator, which we are.

We happen to be the only species that is actively destroying the planet and fully aware of it, this goes against every other rule of nature and thus, in my opinion, can not be explained as simply being a natural thing.

Half truth. Does an invasive species 'care' about the other species it is affecting? No.

What's the real problem? The ego which is inside every human being, driving them to only care about the self (hence ego-ism, living for the self). Animals don't have egos like ours

This statement doesn't make much sense to me, but in any case: They have instincts. The same ones we have. Which is one of my major points in this thread.

they live in the present, therefor there is no need for them to care about the future, or fulfilling desires beyond the now,... We, on the other hand, are capable of doing exactly that, and it's what occupies most of our time on this earth.

Rubbish. Obviously animals do plan ahead, this is not an attribute unique to humans whatsoever. Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree I think. Thanks for your input.



I

reply to post by Balkan


We'll have to agree to disagree, by calling what I'm saying rubbish? Allrighty then, my job is done here, if you're too stubborn to listen to what anyone else has to say, you're in the wrong place friend.

You reply to what you want to reply to, willfully ignoring everything you have no answers for, and the few points you do reply to are mostly made up of halfassed answers that don't have any arguments whatsoever.

Oh, and educate yourself, bears store food for the winter, because otherwise they would starve to death. Seems logical to me, obviously not to you if you're going to compare what we as humans do, to what a bear does in order to survive a season where food is scarce. This is of course total nonsense, as bears are selfish creatures who enjoy possessing as many food as possible so they can attract female bears and brag to their bear-bros about their achievements

Originally posted by Aliensun
Per your original OP about ETs by nature being predators:
Such a narrow view you have on the development of HUMAN life.
Do you have any idea of what the human mind is capable of on the positive side?
Do you have any idea of what the real meaning of the term "spiritual enlightenment" means?
I'll answer that for you. No, you don't.

True, Nature is nature. Dog eat dog. Big fish eat little fish. But guess what? At some point in evolution consciousness results. Nature takes a back seat to what consciousness can comprehend. The view of the Universe by a truly conscious being is no longer seen not as a place for a happy meal but as a connected structure that defies and will always defy the mind of man.

You evidently think that we are at the peak of our development, that we cannot evolve beyond what we are today. How terribly, terribly foolish. To assume that any ETs will be wanting to exploit us is fear mongering. Such a view is based upon nothing but a focus of where we have been with saveragry and barbarianism and not where we are headed. That destination is where truly intelligent beings will exist in near god-like wonder, perhaps not as equals, but with something in common.

Nice post, starred! Good luck with this one, I don't think he wants to accept anything that doesn't fit his own view of things, his loss of course

Originally posted by Aliensun
Per your original OP about ETs by nature being predators:
Such a narrow view you have on the development of HUMAN life.
Do you have any idea of what the human mind is capable of on the positive side?
Do you have any idea of what the real meaning of the term "spiritual enlightenment" means?
I'll answer that for you. No, you don't.

heh - my top two lifetime interests of study have been religious/spiritual subjects. Lifetime, and I am bit old. I don't have to bring dogma into all of my interests and discussions about life. If you do, that's your business.

Nature takes a back seat to what consciousness can comprehend. The view of the Universe by a truly conscious being is no longer seen not as a place for a happy meal but as a connected structure that defies and will always defy the mind of man.

If you say so.

You evidently think that we are at the peak of our development, that we cannot evolve beyond what we are today. How terribly, terribly foolish.

You're reading comprehension must not be too good, as I never even remotely suggested such a thing. In fact, I have the opposite opinion.

To assume that any ETs will be wanting to exploit us is fear mongering.

Or just an objective look at life on our planet, and using that to make a few simple guesses about what intelligent ET life may be like in the universe.

Such a view is based upon nothing but a focus of where we have been with saveragry and barbarianism and not where we are headed.

Except history does not support your opinion whatsoever, and shows a cyclical pattern of wars and social upheaval.

I am glad you are so optimistic we can change.