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For me personally, when I am thinking about sinning or have sinned I feel the Holy Spirit promoting me against what I am thinking of doing or promoting me to repent afterwards if I go along and do it anyway. At that point I either follow the Holy Spirit to not sin or I follow the Holy Spirit who is promoting me to repent. I know from past experiences when I have continually ignored the promptings of the Holy Spirit His voice grows fainter and fainter to the point where I don't feel lead by God or the Holy Spirit is not in me at all. People can go through these highs and lows in their spiritual life all the time, life circumstances can distract you from what is important and people can readily turn away from God even though at an earlier point in their lives they decided to 'believe' in Him. At that point when I have felt cut off from the branch I never felt that I was still 'saved'.
When people go through these various tough periods in their spiritual lives and I think it is the totally wrong message to say basically 'continue along in your wrong path, it doesn't matter now if you ever pray to God anymore or seek to give your life and time to Him ect ect because you are ALWAYS 'saved' now and can do no wrong in His eyes'. I really don't think there is much exaggeration here. To me it is a pointless message to basically say to people be content in your capitulation to the world cos you are already home free, just cruise along, no need to live boldly for God's services.
The only people that have been attracted to this thread (would be the target audience) are jmdewey60 and I, both Adventist and both of whom if we were to die today would consider yourself would be in the Resurrection of the faithful. It is a pointless thread. It is a pointless thread for us and it is a dangerous thread for other Christians who don't know any better.
Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by Akragon
agreed....but heaps of people think here that if it is not explicitly mentioned then it doesn't apply, particularly the 4th commandment so you have 98-99% of Christianity not following this commandment
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by troubleshooter
Funny... i thought there were at least 2 commandments...
Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
You have to understand my perspective on this....I am on this forum basically just to say the proclamation of the 3 angels (3 messages from Revelation 14:6-11 given by humans as the end approaches). The third angels message from verses 9-11 makes it abundantly clear that ALL those who receive the beast's mark will be erased from existence(both body and soul) and will not go to Heaven. Do you see how this message is incompatible with 'once saved always saved'?
I am here trying to inform people of this great test, to tell them to spend this time now strengthen their relationship with God so they will not capitulate to the world when they are threatened with not being able to buy food, clothing or have any shelter....The message of OSAS is, 'it doesn't matter if you receive the beast's mark, you are going to heaven anyway'. The two views are completely at odds with each other. This final test (we are told from E. White writings) separates out those of lukewarm faith (maybe you would advocate that they were never 'saved' to begin with, maybe, maybe not, who knows) and those who's character's aren't compatible with the Heavenly kingdom.
If this is how the test will be to separate people into two camps then would not Jesus be deciding this all through history as well (not just the last days test). God can only Judge people by the amount of light/understanding they have received, so if people in the past were initially 'saved' by God already and some time along the way they receive more understanding/light of what God expects of them as Christians but they reject this because they are all so comfortable already then what do you think God's Judgment on them will be as this is a mirror of the beast's mark test.
People are expected to grow as Christians to spiritual maturity and we grow in understanding and light along the way. If we get to the point where we start rejecting the Word that we have been given in new understanding then it makes perfect sense that He too would reject them.
If I see anyone saying (or effectively saying) to others in the last days, 'don't worry, you are already Christian, it is fine to receive the beast's mark and reject God's mark because once you are saved you are always saved'. If I hear that from anyone then they are going to experience some fury from me because the truth is not in them.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them
Do you keep the 4th?
Hope you don't mind if i assume here, but i would assume you don't... at least not according to the OT...
As the Jews departed from God, and failed to make the righteousness of Christ their own by faith, the Sabbath lost its significance to them. Satan was seeking to exalt himself and to draw men away from Christ, and he worked to pervert the Sabbath, because it is a sign of the power of Christ. The Jewish leaders accomplished the will of Satan by surrounding God's rest day with burdensome requirements. In the days of Christ the Sabbath had become so perverted that its observance reflected the character of selfish and arbitrary men rather than the character of the loving heavenly Father. The rabbis virtually represented God as giving laws which it was impossible for men to obey. They led the people to look upon God as a tyrant, and to think that the observance of the Sabbath, as He required it, made men hard hearted and cruel. It was the work of Christ to clear away these misconceptions. Although the rabbis followed Him with merciless hostility, He did not even appear to conform to their requirements, but went straight forward, keeping the Sabbath according to the law of God.
When accused of Sabbathbreaking at Bethesda, Jesus defended Himself by affirming His Sonship to God, and declaring that He worked in harmony with the Father. Now that the disciples are attacked, He cites His accusers to examples from the Old Testament, acts performed on the Sabbath by those who were in the service of God.
The Jewish teachers prided themselves on their knowledge of the Scriptures, and in the Saviour's answer there was an implied rebuke for their ignorance of the Sacred Writings. "Have ye not read so much as this," He said, "what David did, when himself was an hungered, and they which were with him; how he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, . . . which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?" "And He said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." "Have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple." "The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath." Luke 6:3, 4; Mark 2:27, 28; Matt. 12:5, 6.
If it was right for David to satisfy his hunger by eating of the bread that had been set apart to a holy use, then it was right for the disciples to supply their need by plucking the grain upon the sacred hours of the Sabbath. Again, the priests in the temple performed greater labor on the Sabbath than upon other days. The same labor in secular business would be sinful; but the work of the priests was in the service of God. They were performing those rites that pointed to the redeeming power of Christ, and their labor was in harmony with the object of the Sabbath. But now Christ Himself had come. The disciples, in doing the work of Christ, were engaged in God's service, and that which was necessary for the accomplishment of this work it was right to do on the Sabbath day.
Christ would teach His disciples and His enemies that the service of God is first of all. The object of God's work in this world is the redemption of man; therefore that which is necessary to be done on the Sabbath in the accomplishment of this work is in accord with the Sabbath law. Jesus then crowned His argument by declaring Himself the "Lord of the Sabbath,"--One above all question and above all law. This infinite Judge acquits the disciples of blame, appealing to the very statutes they are accused of violating.
Jesus did not let the matter pass with administering a rebuke to His enemies. He declared that in their blindness they had mistaken the object of the Sabbath. He said, "If ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless." Matt. 12:7. Their many heartless rites could not supply the lack of that truthful integrity and tender love which will ever characterize the true worshiper of God.
Again Christ reiterated the truth that the sacrifices were in themselves of no value. They were a means, and not an end. Their object was to direct men to the Saviour, and thus to bring them into harmony with God. It is the service of love that God values. When this is lacking, the mere round of ceremony is an offense to Him. So with the Sabbath. It was designed to bring men into communion with God; but when the mind was absorbed with wearisome rites, the object of the Sabbath was thwarted. Its mere outward observance was a mockery.
Desire of Ages, Chp 29 p. 283 - 286
What day isn't "Gods day"?
...we know what day the Lord's Day is, specifically setting aside the whole day
Matthew 12:28 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath
Actually I do keep the 4th commandment according to the Old Testament according to the intend behind it before Satan instilled on the hearts of the Pharisees all the onerous and ridiculous rules and regulations that came about later on, after the old covenant was already broken.
we know what day the Lord's Day is, specifically setting aside the whole day
Isaiah 66:22-23 For as the new heaven and the new earth which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(23) and it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
So thats a no then?
You either do it the way its written or you don't...
Saturday, or Sunday? Or Friday?
Theres plenty of different beliefs on the matter... only one holds true according to scripture...
What day isn't the lords day... The answer is Every day is... not just one out of the week
Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by Akragon
The weekly Sabbath as reference in the 4th commandment, the 7th day of the week, has always ever been Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
Show me where all the onerous rules and regulations are written down in the Bible that we must keep...show me where 'the way it is written'
ALL those who receive the beast's mark will be erased from existence(both body and soul) and will not go to Heaven. Do you see how this message is incompatible with 'once saved always saved'?
Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by troubleshooter
Incorrect, the object of both covenants are the 10 commandments....the terms of salvation, what is given along the way to help strengthen us (to keep the 10 commandments) and the way forgiveness/repentance is conducted is different.
Originally posted by troubleshooter
Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by Akragon
The weekly Sabbath as reference in the 4th commandment, the 7th day of the week, has always ever been Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
Under Israel the weekly Sabbath fell on day 8, 15, 22, 29 of each lunar month.
The Saturday/Sabbath you think you are keeping is an invention of Julius Caesar about 48 BC...
...who changed times and the law. (Dan 7:25)
Originally posted by Akragon
Originally posted by troubleshooter
Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by Akragon
The weekly Sabbath as reference in the 4th commandment, the 7th day of the week, has always ever been Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
Under Israel the weekly Sabbath fell on day 8, 15, 22, 29 of each lunar month.
The Saturday/Sabbath you think you are keeping is an invention of Julius Caesar about 48 BC...
...who changed times and the law. (Dan 7:25)
He is correct actually...
would you mind givng some references to your claim?
Sunday worship is a creation of the romans... Sun worship...
And Friday at Sunset to Saturday at sunset falls in line with the gospels...
Can you give me clear scripture for this 'test' JG?
Revelation 13:15-17
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 14:7 Worship Him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.
Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus
“Sunday is our mark...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” — Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.
“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” — H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.
“Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” — Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.
“It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church.” — Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, p. 213.
“Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” — Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.
“It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church.” — Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, p. 213.
Romes Challenge
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy...The 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God...For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rest on the seventh-day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:8, 10, and 11)