Self-Defense: The Key To A Civil Society?

Any use of any martial art may constitute use of a lethal weapon,in some states.If someone pops a stance in front of me that is how I would take it and I would respond with full bore combat.I don't act tough and I always warn them to leave me alone I'm a combat vet.

I think the philosophical aspect to martial arts is the most important. There are many styles out there, but in my opinion very few teach this correctly....if at all. The "Bob Jones" martial arts were (or still are) popular because you were guaranteed a black belt within 3 years (sometimes 18 months) as long as you paid your fees! This type of teaching breeds more meat heads. Traditional styles are harder to come by because of a lack of decent/spiritual/philosophical teachers, but they do still exist.

Originally posted by Eidolon23
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

Right on! That is very encouraging to hear. I agree entirely with you on the upshots of regular practice- you might even be able to wean a few kids off the Adderol. Do you practice yourself, and if so, what are you into?

As a petite female who has lived in urban areas, my self-defense skillz have saved my bacon twice. I feel very strongly that all women should look into it. There's always going to be the size differential, but like I said: it's all about equalization.

I agree that everyone should learn this stuff, as a petite female who also who has done martial arts. Unfortunately I have noticed some very superficial reasons why girls/women are put off martial arts or self defence.

One of them is that they don't want to get sweaty and look 'ugly' whilst training. Another one is that they don't want to get bruised or hurt. It just doesn't fit in with their lifestyle of wearing pretty things and looking feminine. It doesn't fit in with the helpless waif, anorexic look either. I have had many strange looks on the occasion when I've had bruises. Friends and colleagues just can't understand why you would want to hurt yourself, I've tried to explain that it's better to know your physical limits and toughen yourself up a bit but well.....girls are taught from birth not to avoid anything that could hurt the tiniest bit!

Female friends I have also do silly things like walk around in heels at night whilst drunk, listen to ipods whilst walking etc. I witnessed a violent mugging recently where the girl was completely oblivious because she was walking down an alley way engrossed in her phone conversation, she didn't even know what happened.

It really would be valuable for all women to learn self defence, not so that they can perform some crazy high kicks and look like Bruce Lee but so that they become aware and able to react if something happens.

Whenever I hear about a rape or mugging I think how different it would have been if the guy picked on someone like my 6 foot tall lady Taekwondo teacher, they'd be a mess

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
Any use of any martial art may constitute use of a lethal weapon,in some states.If someone pops a stance in front of me that is how I would take it and I would respond with full bore combat.I don't act tough and I always warn them to leave me alone I'm a combat vet.

You raise an excellent point. I'm sure there are some jackass brown belts out there who get a couple down them and suddenly think they're Chuck Norris. That's unfortunate, but if more citizens were capable of restraining that jackass if he's feeling Budweiser brave and starts some shhh he can't finish, well... wouldn't that be better?

I looked into the legality angle, and found that this guy gives the most comprehensive and accurate rundown.

245(a)(1) defines a deadly weapon as "an object, instrument, or weapon that is capable of producing and likely to produce death or great bodily injury." Now, since hands, feet, and other body parts are not an object, instrument, or weapon, it is commonly argued that they do not qualify as deadly weapons. However, prosecutors have argued, successfully, that if the hands, feet, or other body parts were "capable of producing and likely to produce death or great bodily injury", they qualify as deadly weapons....

Back on point: If you were arrested for and charged with aggravated assault, the prosecution may argue that your background in a martial art made you "capable of producing and likely to produce death or great bodily injury". Now... Let's say that the person in this situation was a drunk, off-duty, police officer, who was killed as a result of your fight (two hits -- you hit him, and he hit the ground. It happens.) and you were arguing self-defense (an affirmative defense) and lost (say because the jury felt your training meant you should be held to a higher standard -- again, this happens). So your aggravated assault would be a felony, and a death occurring during the commission of a felony is murder, and you are S.O.L.

As a martial artist, you have a responsibility, whether you like it or not, to use restraint, and it's a jury that determines whether you've lived up to that responsibility. 12 citizens, statistically unlikely to have any martial arts background, are going to decide whether or not you are behaving in a responsible manner. But, you are not held to any different a standard than any other law-abiding citizen otherwise would be. Everyone has the potential to cause grievous bodily harm to another with no weapons at all.

answers.yahoo.com...

I bolded the kicker there.

Here's my thought. Adults have there fear propaganda. Which was the cold war, then climate change, now terrorism. So some smart person said "hey lets create a fear in kids too". So they started promoting bullying. Always talking about bullying and the war on bullying basically. That's a way to promote fear in kids. Like "be careful at school today Jonny, would hate to see you get beat up by a bully!". So you see what I'm saying? Then kids grow up fearing everyone and always looking over there shoulder. And then if they see a bully learn to report it to the teacher. Or in other words learn to be taddle tail or a snitch. That why when they grow up they can still be a snitch only now the to the g0v. Taddle tailing on there neighbors, telling about how there lawn is too long, so that way a bi law officer can come and issue a fine and stuff like that.

Originally posted by Stonesplitter
I think the philosophical aspect to martial arts is the most important. There are many styles out there, but in my opinion very few teach this correctly....if at all. The "Bob Jones" martial arts were (or still are) popular because you were guaranteed a black belt within 3 years (sometimes 18 months) as long as you paid your fees! This type of teaching breeds more meat heads. Traditional styles are harder to come by because of a lack of decent/spiritual/philosophical teachers, but they do still exist.

It is very true.

When a lot of these Schools hit the states, they get McDonaldized- cut everything from the form that isn't easy to teach a large group, and drop the standards and philosophy. Which, if you're looking for a good workout (no judgement), is going to fit your needs just fine.

But if you're looking for a strong form that actually works, you are gonna have to really hunt for the right teacher.

The lack of good teachers and prevalence of compromised lineages presents a greater hurdle to common practice than indifference.

reply to post by DrHammondStoat


Ayyyyyy! A fellow Tae Kwon Do student. Pleased to meet you, dig the avatar like whoa.

One of them is that they don't want to get sweaty and look 'ugly' whilst training. Another one is that they don't want to get bruised or hurt. It just doesn't fit in with their lifestyle of wearing pretty things and looking feminine.

Maybe- I think it goes deeper than that. I think a lot of women are afraid of their own capacity for aggression. Not that vanity doesn't play a part. For lady readers out there who are concerned about unsightly bruises I would say two things.

1) That's why the good Lord gave us Arnica. It comes in gel form, and no bruise can withstand its awesome power.

2) Sweetie, there are a number of ways you can get bruised up- taking a martial arts class might be one of them, but will also keep you from acquiring them in far nastier scenarios.

Female friends I have also do silly things like walk around in heels at night whilst drunk, listen to ipods whilst walking etc. I witnessed a violent mugging recently where the girl was completely oblivious because she was walking down an alley way engrossed in her phone conversation, she didn't even know what happened.

Terrible news.

reply to post by r2d246


Alternatively, bullying is a problem that attracted media scrutiny, and not the other way around. I fail to see how heightened awareness of the social and personal impact of bullying is anything but a boon. You may have been out of school for a while, but this is some real shhh.

*One third of teens reported being bullied while at school

*About 20 percent of teens had been made fun of by a bully, 18 percent of teens had rumors or gossip spread about them, 11 percent were physically bullied, such as being shoved, tripped, or spit on, 6 percent were threatened, 5 percent were excluded from activities they wanted to participate in, 4 percent were coerced into something they did not want to do, and 4 percent had their personal belongings destroyed by bullies

*Only about a third of bully victims reported the bullying to someone at school

*About 2 of every 3 bully victims were bullied once or twice during the school year, 1 in 5 were bullied once or twice a month, and about 1 in 10 were bullied daily or several times a week

www.bullyingstatistics.org...

Originally posted by loveguy

Maybe Aikido is better suited for women and children? Fact is that I have little experience in violence.

I have heard that a lot.



If you watch this demo, it will be apparent that the author of this post is correct in asserting that women and aikido are a good match. I can't speak to some of the points they make, but here are the ones borne out by the vid:

*Women are shorter than men on an average and therefore have a lower centre of gravity, which makes them far better than men in Aikido than the males.

*Unlike men, women who are generally of shorter body frame can use a number of opportunities better than men in Aikido.

* Women are more gentle in raising their arms above their heads to gain more momentum.

* Women are more efficient in using their neck muscles to hold their heads inches away from the cool or a hard surface.

Will you please pass the potatoes?

You want some gravy with that?

reply to post by Eidolon23


I merely wished to expose the prejudicial illogic of someone using these skills for purposes in which they aren't intended.A gun would function far more effectively for the same purpose but not so much for the character of the users spirit.
I should have expressed this more carefully.

Originally posted by Stonesplitter
I think the philosophical aspect to martial arts is the most important. There are many styles out there, but in my opinion very few teach this correctly....if at all. The "Bob Jones" martial arts were (or still are) popular because you were guaranteed a black belt within 3 years (sometimes 18 months) as long as you paid your fees! This type of teaching breeds more meat heads.

Traditional styles are really a whole nother thing if someone wants to really go on them as they were meant to be. A lot of the original styles of karate or some of the other martial arts are totally different then we see today. And required extreme dedication over a whole lifetime to them to actually have been useful in an actual fight, McDonalding them is something that does them a complete disservice, and even mixing them with western elements is not how they were originally meant to be.

In fact very few people actually have the dedication or even the time to utilize or put there styles to actual practice. The whole mentality behind most of them is different also then today's martial arts, or utilized in different ways. Say something like Kyokushin karate, in its originality as its founder had in mind is a whole nother thing. In fact a lot of them were more straight forward, and simple but much harder to master and put into practice. Today most are just sport versions of the original intents, in fact conditioning or toughening of the body is not an option, it is a must in them, and to tell the truth they were never mean't to be used in sports type events with any type of gloves on, and with a whole bunch of rules.

The whole philosophy behind them was that fights last a few minutes at most and a lots mere moments and seconds even. You had to do massive amont of damage and critical hitting in the shortest time possible, that's originally why you see them breaking bricks and boards and such. Because it is meant to be used barefisted, and there is very little dancing around its more like a sword fight which a lot of the Japanese arts and also the other martial arts were based on. That is you have no time and it would not be smart to waste energy or make mistakes in your attack, and there is no jabbing as you see in western boxing because really they were originally meant to be used against people with weapons such as samurais with swords or knifes.

It's why you have people like Mas Oyama the founder of Kyoukushin who could bend quarters using his thumb and punch concrete, and ko bulls with one hit. It basically followed the same principles of sword fights, one hit one kill basically. And its why lots of original styles especially karate have or had a hard time translating to more mainstream ways. And its why they do not do that well in combat sport events, as they require extreme dedication, and the rules of those events and especially that you have to use gloves work against them.

And there striking styles are completely different were there is almost always some sort of grappling involved after you attack, or ways of getting your opponent down and finishing him on the ground...In fact that's why they practice breaking boards barefisted, boards may not hit back as Bruce Lee said...But if you can smash a brick, and not those fake bricks either. Then imagine what you can do to your opponents face if you get top position or he ends up on the ground, and a dude like Mas Oyama could literally smash you skull in if he had the leverage and timing right.

So ya it is no joke, but its something not many temper themselves to do, or are able to go to those extremes of practice to be able to achieve that type of body conditioning and hardening/raw physical power, couple that up with timing and knowledge of human anatomy ie which parts to hit and when, and its not something that can be learned in a few years at all, and definitely not implemented in a real fight over a few years either. It is basically something that is always ongoing throughout a whole lifetime.

Basically they were not joking when they put there maxim as consider your whole body and your arms and legs as weapons. Because that is the original intent, or at least in the more hardcore karate styles, but even those have a bit of judo and jiu jitsu in them. Originally I think they were never meant to be separate arts, but part of one complete thing.

So I can see how in some ways they had no choice but to MacDonald them up to make the art spread, and either way everybody goes to different degree's in the martial arts, and if people use it just to get into shape or for such purposes. Really who cares, that is one of the reasons why the martial arts were formed if not the original reason and intent behind them.

Here some Mas Oyama vids found on youtube.

GoWtT,

Thank you posting the stuff on Mr. Oyama. That says a lot about who you are as a martial arts person. In the spirit of your post I thought I would add (if you do not already know it) that in Northern Chinese styles the whole thing, if you draw a line from one hand all the way across the scapulae to the other hand is called the 'Fist' or chuan. Cool huh? And the reason they say 'Southern fist, Northern leg' is not because the Northern dudes like to kick, it's because of the way the earth is used to leverage giant death blows, Taiji is from the North.

So I am wanting to add to this thread so badly but I am so conflicted because I am so much like the boy in the video and despite years of trying, I still hurt over the whole affair.

I was bullied till I snapped as well. I was like the boy, in that my problem was not that I lacked the physicality to deal with the problem, it is just that it took me years to digest the fact that people actually treated one another that way. Once it sunk in my heart was overwhelmed with hurt and disappointment. I cleaned up the bullies in a week, complete with a final stand in my cul de sac ( I hate cul de sacs, we don't even have our own word for them). I wish it had made me feel better in a way that was sustainable.

Because then I went out and wasted my time participating in escalation. Always trying to be 'better' or whatever the #. I am just really not a great source of anything on this. In fact I think the video kind of popped my cork a little on this stuff. But that is why Eidolon's threads are the best.

Wow. I actually am just so racked up around this. Gonna have to give it more thought.

But, I am a huge proponent of the traditional martial arts and I have always hoped that they would find their place of greatest usefullness to society. I just wish that we all could stop fighting and get really good at ping pong and haxor instead.

Haxor is the new MA, in my book.



X.

Originally posted by Xoanon
I was bullied till I snapped as well. I was like the boy, in that my problem was not that I lacked the physicality to deal with the problem, it is just that it took me years to digest the fact that people actually treated one another that way. Once it sunk in my heart was overwhelmed with hurt and disappointment.

Sigh. Yeah. That.

reply to post by Eidolon23


Having many friends and family in construction, I believe I've heard variations of this many times. Usually expressed much less eloquently. Something to the effect of "That guys behaviour would be immediately improved by a punch in the face. My insurance costs and the law stand between him and the asskicking he needs to become a better human being."

Bullies and the bullied are on the same spectrum, and often bullies have been bullied. I don't want to be a nail, so I'm going to be a hammer. The set up for punishment-reward system in the brain for this behaviour can be set on either end - by being bullied or by being a bully.

The most useful way of deterring bullying is to empower the observers. The bystanders encourage the bully system. Cultures encourage bystander behaviour and actively punish bystanders from becoming involved. Call the police, or click open your phone and video it (video one's bystander behaviour) is the only thing people are "allowed" to do.. So if you manage to get past being concerned for your safety, and potentially bringing a world of criminal bullies to your door, you are still going to be punished for becoming involved.

Now, in empowering all individuals you might end up with the opposite effect. What if the observers become involved and they like the bullies?


ETA: Bystander Effect

I often think that if all good people took some form of martial arts class, there wouldn't be a single robber, rapist, bully, drunk, skinhead or anything else that could harrass an innocent person - because he'd instantly get beat into the ground by a dozen martial arts trained citizens protecting their fellow citizen from scum of the Earth. Spinning further on this idea, I think that teaching martial arts in school would help in this goal, because in a way it would bring back some of the lost "warrior culture" and pride that we had back in the day - bushido and chivalry comes to mind - and we would have an easier time overcoming our fear and unwillingness to "get involved".

So, in essence, I think that the key to a safe society is a widespread acceptance of and practice of self-defense techniques, or at the least a basic ability to defend yourself. I'm not sure if it's because of that or not, but Japan is an example where martial arts IS widespread, and it is also quite possibly THE safest country in the world.

Personally I practice Krav Maga. I got taught it during my time in the Swedish Navy and Army, and picked it up again a few months ago. It combines ruthless brutality and all-out force utilized in self-defense, with the mindset of holding back, using only the necessary amount of violence (more for your own sake than your opponent's, granted), and with a lot of focus on physical exercise. It also teaches more than simple self-defense. It teaches a mindset - not the spiritual mindset I get the impression most martial arts teach, but a mindset of awareness of danger, awareness of risks and awareness of the necessity of being able to defend yourself.

No surprise since I'm a practitioner, and all practitioners of a martial art will advocate their own martial art before others - but in my opinion, Krav Maga is one of the few styles of martial arts that is highly useful in actual on-the-street conflicts, and the number one choice of martial art for self-defense.

More to the point, it's really, really good for instilling a good mindset in people, both when it comes to being humble and respecting others, and gaining confidence and the like.


(I think this turned into somewhat of a rant. Sorry about that. Good thread!)

Originally posted by Gauss
I often think that if all good people took some form of martial arts class, there wouldn't be a single robber, rapist, bully, drunk, skinhead or anything else that could harrass an innocent person

I question this idea. The fact is that size still matters. In a bad situation, the person I'm likely to be concerned about is likely larger than I am with greater muscle mass. If everyone is trained, than so is that person. The escalation remains the same and in that case I'm still left with the same set of solutions as right now: suck it up, escalate faster than they can account for, or pull out the relate function.

The fight-flight model is based on instincts. Women have a third instinct so that this model actually looks like relate-fight-flight. Bullying is such a powerful force in humanity that it has literally programmed women with an extra way of dealing with it to make up for the size differential. Isn't that just lovely. (hurl)

"A free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular.": - Adlai Stevenson

I'm not arguing that empowerment is a bad idea. I'm just suggesting that empowering a bunch of bullies might not work out the way people think.

reply to post by SibylofErythrae


I definitely agree with you there. The good thing with Krav Maga (at least where I've trained) is they don't train people with a criminal history. Doesn't weed out bullies, but it goes a long way. Anyway, even if the guy was larger than me, I wouldn't be alone, because all the other regular people sitting around me in the bus would also have martial training.

At least, that's how my little theory worked.

reply to post by Gauss


I think my point is what if everyone on the bus prefers the bully? This behaviour seems just as common. The bystanders stop being bystanders, and decide that that unpopular person being beaten on deserves it and they want a piece of that action?

Does empowerment to the capability to violence at all times fix the underlying problem with bullying? Without people deeply loving non-violence, and preferring protecting individuals I suspect that most people's morality would actually tend to make them protect the crowd from the wiles of the unpopular. In a society of violence, would people disdain the person who gets bullied and want to eradicate them?

Protecting the crowd over the individual is a very powerful force, deeply ingrained in morality standards.

(and great hat man.)

reply to post by SibylofErythrae


That's a depressing thought, and one I didn't think of. It definitely could happen, though I'm a "benefit of the doubt" kind of guy when it comes to humanity. Maybe what we would need isn't so much martial arts as the mindset, i.e. some kind of deeply rooted sense of honor in our society, of the kind we had way back in history - again, something like bushido or chivalry. Just a thought.

(And thanks for the compliment. It's my adventure hat. Bought and paid for in the gift shop in Furnace Creek, Death Valley. )

reply to post by Xoanon


So your into martial arts as well, never knew E23 was into any of that, much less Tae Kwon Do which does some things in unpractical methods but over all its not a bad style martial art, some of those kicks though you would only wanna try if your making a movie. I cant say I was bullied per say, but I have had my run in with people, even to this day there still is a kid that if we met in some dark alley somewhere one of these days there may be fireworks.

You know I try to be civil and stuff, but at the slightest hint of things there definitely would be only me walking out that ally. In fact it was more of a gang thing, and the school were this happened I remember used to have this bridge that lead from the gym that was separate to the main school area. In fact I still remember one day after a sort of confrontation with him and about 3 of his buddies, when the bell rang and everybody was going on to there classes. I remember him and his friends walking in front of me on that same bridge/walkway. And the thought going on trough my head was what if I started a fight with them, and maybe I can punch down his friends quickly and then get that douche close to the rail and toss his ass over.

Which is not a vary nice thought to think, but you know that stuff gets to you. And since it was about about 2 story's high and the landing would of been on concrete, well it would not be pretty and fatal. But he and his friends would get the picture. I never did that however, and the whole bullying thing kind of phased out when they saw that I would just not respond, or if that I did respond it would not be pretty.

And seeing that I was never really the cool kid, or really had much friends or hanged in a click or group. # was weird for me, in fact i sort of just wandered around by myself and just hanged around a little here and there with a whole bunch of people. I hanged a bit with the nerds watching them playing magic cards, but I also somewhat hanged around with the whole bad boy kids, and even the drug dealers, in fact the security guard at that school sold drugs before they found him and fired his ass, and a whole bunch of different people and kids in between.

In fact hanged around is probably the wrong word to use. I sort of wandered into there group and sort of wandered out in time, never really belonging. But ya my experience with school and school kids and school bullies and the whole thing was varied and kind of bizarre, but it was mostly just wandering about by myself.

As a part of the "brave new world", it's universally unacceptable to defend yourself andd it's being pushed on the youngest with the most pressure through "no tolerance" policies at school. Funny thing is, people, 10 years ago, were called conspiracy theorists for saying our establishments are rife with pro marxists and related philosophy.
It's true