The actual Beast's Mark of the NWO, how it will come in, Satan's last days deceiption (testing you

reply to post by iESOTERICuEXOTERIC


Good find iESOTERIC!...I have to say that your avatar picture is very apt...the Papacy standing over the United Nations as its leader and spokesman HAHA

Here is some more info hot of the press for 'wildtimes' from the New Age message boards that I keep tabs on.

“There is a soul group that keeps reincarnating with the sole purpose of fighting against the Cabal and setting the planet free. In the middle ages, they were fighting against the Inquisition. In the 17th and 18th centuries they were fighting against the Jesuits. Now, they are mostly against the Rockefellers and Rothschilds. This group is the cavalry that is coming.
Cobra Message 7-5-12…”White Knights – the Cavalry is Coming”

I am not advocating reincarnation or the messages from this site, but those following this information come to the same conclusions. The Inquisition is the Vatican/Papacy, the Jesuits are the Vatican and if you read the first 3 chapters of the book I have posted up previously, The Enemy Unmasked (Chapter 1 The Brink, Chapter 2: The Illuminati-Jewish Front, Chapter 3: Blackmailing Banker Bandits), then you know these 'illuminati' families are also a direct analogue of the Jesuits for the Vatican as well, it is all just the Vatican under various names and fronts to confuse the mind. Guess who also points out that it is the Vatican (other than all the major protestant reformers too)?....the Bible points it out clearly with prophetic descriptions (which I outlined and sourced in the very first paragraph of this entire thread) absolutely perfectly fulfilled.

Here is a story (2:46 mins long) retold about Jesuits believing Ellen White is a prophet


Testimony from an Ex-Satanist (about Sunday being Satan's day and the state of the dead) (10 mins long)

............
'Troubleshooter' I will get to your link shortly when I have actually finished reading (only up to page 3 of 13 at the moment)...soooo hold your horses!

...I am bombarded with too many questions at once (I still need to answer 'synagog of satan', 'noahide laws', your 'sabbath lunar calendar', and eywadevotee's post too that I could not really decipher at my first skim read)!

So more quotes from the Catholic church on what they have to say about this all:

“Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday...Now the Church...instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.” — Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 edition, p. 136.

“Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” — Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.

Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day - Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes. Did Christ change the day’? I answer no!”
“Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons.” — James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, Md. (1877-1921), in a signed letter.

“Question. - How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
“Answer. - By the very act of changing Sabbath into Sunday which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.
“Question. - How prove you that?
“Answer. - Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church’s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin: and by not keeping the rest by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.” — An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine, composed by Henry Tuberville, p. 58.

“Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The (Roman Catholic) Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.” — John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, 1936 edition, vol. 1, p. 51.

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“Question. What warrant have you for keeping Sunday preferably to the ancient sabbath which was Saturday?
“Answer. We have for it the authority of the Catholic church and apostolic tradition.
“Question. Does the Scripture anywhere command the Sunday to be kept for the Sabbath?
“Answer. The Scripture commands us to hear the church (St.Matt.18:17; St. Luke 10:16), and to hold fast the traditions of the apostles. 2 Thess 2:15. But the Scripture does not in particular mention this change of the Sabbath.
“St John speaks of the Lord’s day (Rev 1:10) but he does not tell us what day of the week that was, much less does he tell us what day was to take the place of the Sabbath ordained in the commandments. St.Luke speaks of the disciples meeting together to break bread on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7. And St. Paul (1 Cor.16:2) orders that on the first day of the week the Corinthians should lay in store what they designated to bestow in charity on the faithful in Judea: but neither the one or the other tells us that this first day of the week was to be henceforth a day of worship, and the Christian Sabbath; so that truly the best authority we have for this ancient custom is the testimony of the church. And therefore those who pretend to be such religious observers of Sunday, whilst they take no notice of other festivals ordained by the same church authority, show that they act more by humor, than by religion; since Sundays and holidays all stand upon the same foundation, namely the ordinance of the (Roman Catholic) church.” — Catholic Christian Instructed, 17th edition, p. 272-273.

“Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman Catholic) Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath.” — John Gilmary Shea, American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.

“Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles...From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” — Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August 1900.

“From this we may understand how great is the authority of the church in interpreting or explaining to us the commandments of God - an authority which is acknowledged by the universal practice of the whole Christian world, even of those sects which profess to take the holy Scriptures as their sole rule of faith, since they observe as the day of rest not the seventh day of the week demanded by the Bible, but the first day. Which we know is to be kept holy, only from the tradition and teaching of the Catholic church.” — Henry Gibson, Catechism Made Easy, #2, 9th edition, vol. 1, p. 341-342.

“I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’ And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.” — father T. Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, February 18, 1884, printed in History of the Sabbath, p. 802.

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“The (Roman Catholic) Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday.” — The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

“Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:
“1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.
“2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide man through life, has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance, the Friday abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages and a thousand other laws...
“It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible.” — Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Magazine, USA (1975), Chicago, Illinois, “Under the blessing of the Pope Pius XI”.

“I am going to propose a very plain and serious question to those who follow ‘the Bible and the Bible only’ to give their most earnest attention. It is this: Why don’t you keep holy the Sabbath day?...
“The command of the Almighty God stands clearly written in the Bible in these words: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work.’ Exodus 20:8-10...
“You will answer me, perhaps, that you do keep the Sabbath; for that you abstain from all worldly business and diligently go to church, and say your prayers, and read your Bible at home every Sunday of your lives...
“But Sunday is not the Sabbath day. Sunday is the first day of the week: the Sabbath day is the seventh day of the week. Almighty God did not give a commandment that men should keep holy one day in seven; but He named His own day, and said distinctly: ‘Thou shalt keep holy the seventh day’; and He assigned a reason for choosing this day rather than any other - a reason which belongs only to the seventh day of the week, and cannot be applied to the rest. He says, ‘For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it’, Exodus 20:11, Genesis 2:1-3. Almighty God ordered that all men should rest from their labor on the seventh day, because He too had rested on that day: He did not rest on Sunday, but on Saturday. On Sunday, which is the first day of the week, He began the work of creation; He did not finish it. It was on Saturday that He ‘ended His work which he had made: and God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.’ Genesis 2:2-3...
“Nothing can be more plain and easy to understand than all this; there is nobody who attempts to deny it. It is acknowledged by everybody that the day which Almighty God appointed to be kept holy was Saturday, not Sunday. Why do you then keep holy the Sunday and not Saturday?
“You will tell me that Saturday was the Jewish Sabbath, but that the Christian Sabbath has been changed to Sunday. Changed! But by whom? Who has the authority to change an express commandment of Almighty God? When God has spoken and said, ‘Thou shalt keep holy the seventh day’, who shall dare to say, ‘Nay, thou mayest work and do all manner of worldly business on the seventh day: but thou shalt keep holy the first day in its stead?’ This is a most important question, which I know not how you answer...
“You are a Protestant, and you profess to go by the Bible and the Bible only; and yet, in so important a manner as the observance of one day in seven as the holy day, you go against the plain letter of the Bible, and put another day in the place of that day which the Bible has commanded. The command to keep holy the seventh day is one of the Ten Commandments; you believe that the other nine are still binding. Who gave you authority to tamper with the fourth? If you are consistent with your own principles, if you really follow the Bible, and the Bible only you ought to be able to produce some portion of the New Testament in which this fourth commandment is expressly altered.” Excerpts from “Why Don’t You Keep Holy the Sabbath Day?”, pages 3-15 in The Clifton Tract, vol. 4, published by the Roman Catholic Church 1869.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
............
'Troubleshooter' I will get to your link shortly when I have actually finished reading (only up to page 3 of 13 at the moment)...soooo hold your horses!

...I am bombarded with too many questions at once (I still need to answer 'synagog of satan', 'noahide laws', your 'sabbath lunar calendar', and eywadevotee's post too that I could not really decipher at my first skim read)!

Sorry JG, I rapid read and assume everyone else does too...
...subtle though eh, note the use of double negatives that reverse apparent meaning?

The distinction is presented subtly in scripture too...
...have you noticed that the Seal of God is in the forehead (Rev 9:4)...
...and the Mark of the Beast is on both the forehead and hand (Rev 14:9).

Here are some excellent videos I came across today by a group by the name of Seventh-Day Remnant ministeries (SDR) which is an offshoot of current SDA church but focusing heavily on the 3 angels messages, using all the historical SDA teaching and prophecy from the pioneers and pointing out the apostasies (and softness) that have crept into the SDA church because of heavily Jesuit/Vatican infiltration efforts to destroy the message and draw them back into the 'ecumenical' fold.

The videos are concise and topic based and very relevant to this thread.... (these are the ones I have just reviewed today)
Video: Do Christians need to keep the Sabbath? Was the Sabbath Abolished? Sabbath Justified! part 1 (10mins)

part 2 (10mins) - part 3 (1:24 mins)
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Video: If we have faith we need not the law? (4:40 mins)


Video: We are not under law but under grace? (12:07 mins)


Video: Are the 10 Commandments made only for Israel? (5:57 mins)


Video: Are the ten Commandments no longer needed? (9:21 mins)


Video: The New Covenant is Love! We don't need to keep the law? (10:21 mins)


Video: Jesus fulfilled the law? (9:46 mins)


Video: Are the 10 commandments made only for the Jews? (7:36 mins)

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Video: What it means to have faith (13:02 mins)


Video: Answer me this - Sabbath (3:10 mins)

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I haven't reviewed this current link of 12 videos on '666 and the Mark of the Beast' as yet but if their other content is anything to go by I will be recommending it as well
'666 and the Mark of the Beast' youtube video playlist

and this large video playlist covering the each biblical description of the Beast Antichrist - Mark of Beast

and their video playlist on The Law of God and Christians

One thing you still lack...

"...unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; ... Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:14,20

The Book of Revelation...
...is actually the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Rev 1:1)...
...it is a compilation of Old Testament references to the victory Jesus Christ...
...the 666 motif comes from Daniel 3: ... here I will quote the relevant bit for ya...

You will never understand what is meant by the 666/beast symbol until you understand this story...

Daniel 3:1-5 "Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon. 2 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up. 3 Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up. 4 Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages, 5 That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:"

Height threescore = 60, width = 6 and 6 instruments play.

In this instance King Neb was 'the man' and what he was doing was to force worship on pain of death...
...three men named Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego decided not to comply and were thrown into a fire...
...but they were not burned in the fire and a fourth man appeared who was like the Son of God.

...here is how it reads...

Daniel 3:24-25 "Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

So really the 666 is not about the man or the beast but the fourth man who appears in the fire...
...so it is not a symbol of terror but deliverance ... a symbol of the victory of Jesus Christ.

reply to post by troubleshooter

But you still think that the Roman Saturday is the same as Israel's seventh day Sabbath...
...when it can be clearly demonstrated that it is not.

The original Sabbath given to Israel was determined by the lunar cycle.
...
[exodus, manna, Leviticus 23 ect]

Worlds Last Chance Exposed (Lunar Sabbath) Part 2
Is the Sabbath calculated by the new moons or counting 1 through 7?


Worlds Last Chance Exposed (Lunar Sabbath) Part 4
The word "Sabbath" in Leviticus 23


Worlds Last Chance Exposed (Lunar Sabbath) pt. 6
The manna was gathered 6 days


Worlds Last Chance Exposed (Lunar Sabbath) pt. 11
There is no need of the "moon" in Heaven, yet in Heaven we will keep Sabbath.


Worlds Last Chance Exposed (Lunar Sabbath) pt. 12
Some Lunar preachers claim Lev 23 is speaking of all 12 months, but it only speaks of 2


Have a look at all the descriptions under all 12 parts in the youtube search results to see if they can answer any other questions associated with this.

There is no basis for the Sunday/Sabbath debate with the RC's and claiming Sunday is the Mark of the Beast because Saturday is not the original Sabbath of Israel.

I have not come across this issue of Lunar calendar before so I am not expert, but from the info I reviewed in those videos I posted above suggests the theory is a propaganda trap that has been laid out for people for them to dismiss the need to obey God. I will be interested to hear your thoughts on the videos as you will know this issue more than me and if the videos cover your concerns fully.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
the beast was nero/rome

the mark was a tattoo for tax collecting, like a tax ID number today

This is illogical Catholic teaching to make it appear the beast has already come and gone before they themselves come out of the fourth beast of the Roman Empire.

Was Nero Antichrist? (2:42 mins)

Quotes from other sources confirming same as Rome:

"The first day of the week is commonly called the Sabbath. This is a mistake. The Sabbath of the Bible was the day just preceding the first day of the week. The first day of the week is never called the Sabbath anywhere in the entire Scriptures. It is also an error to talk about the change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. There is not in any place in the Bible any intimation of such a change." First Day Observance, pp. 17, 19.

"It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labour. They obeyed the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of the week." - Professor James C. Moffat, DD., Professor of Church History at Princeton.; from The Church in Scotland, pp140.

"They worked on Sunday, but kept Saturday in a sabbatical manner...These things Margaret abolished" - A History of Scotland from the Roman Occupation, speaking of Queen Margaret's (a Catholic) decree.

"During the first crusade, Pope Urban II decreed at the council of Clermont (AD 1095) that the Sabbath be set aside in honor of the Virgin Mary."- History of the Sabbath p 672

"There is much evidence that the Sabbath prevailed in Wales universally until AD 1115, when the first Roman bishop was seated at St. David's. The old Welsh Sabbath-keeping churches did not even then altogether bow the knee to Rome, but fled to their hiding places." - Lewis, Seventh Day Baptists in Europe and America, Vol 1, p 29

Josephus , first century Historian, says : "There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clathie, Notes and Queries on China and Japan. (edited by Dennys),Vol.4, Nos. 7,8, p.100.

"It was the practice generally of the Eastern Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seems the Saturday was held in farre esteem ..Not that the Eastern churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." , Dr. Heylyn's- History of the Sabbath Part 2, pp. 73,74, London: 1636

"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)

"The gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath." Gieseler's Church History, Vol.1, ch.2, par.30, p.93.

"The first matter concerned a keeping holy of Saturday. It had come to the earth of the archbishop that people in different places of the kingdom had ventured the keeping holy of Saturday. It is strictly forbidden- it is stated- in the Church-Law, for any one to keep or adopt holy-days. outside of those which the pope,archbishop, or bishops appoint." - speaking of the Church Council held at Bergen, Norway in the year 1435, The History of the Norwegian Church under Catholicism, R. Keyser, Vol II, p 488. Oslo: 1858.

"Thus we see Dan. 7 , 25, fulfilled, the little horn changing 'times and laws'. Therefore it appears to me that all who keep the first day for the Sabbath are Pope's Sunday-keepers and God's Sabbath-breakers."- American Elder T.M. Preble, Feb 13 1845.

"Centuries of the Christian era passed away before Sunday was observed by the Christian church as a sabbath. History does not furnish us with a single proof or indication that it was at any time so observed previous to the sabbatical edict of Constantine in A.D. 321" [Wm Dornville: Examination of Six Texts]

"They know little who do not know that the ancient Sabbath remained and was observed by the Eastern churches three hundred years after our Savior's passion" [Prof. Brerewood: Treatise on the Sabbath]

"There is no word, no hint in the New Testament about abstaining from work on Sunday ... into the rest of Sunday no divine law enters" [Canon Eyton: The Ten Commandments]

"Take which you will, either the Fathers or the moderns, and we shall find no Lord's Day instituted by any apostolical mandate, no Sabbath set on foot by them on the first day of the week" [P. Heylyn: History of the Sabbath]

"... the transference to [Sunday] of the sabbatical obligation established by the promulgation of the 4th commandment has no basis whatever either in Holy Scripture or in Christian antiquity" [Wm Smith: Dictionary of Christian Antiquity]

"In the interval between the days of apostles and the conversion of Constantine [4th. cent.] the Christian commonwealth changed its aspect... Rites and ceremonies of which neither Paul nor Peter ever heard crept into use then claimed the rank of divine institutions." [Dr Killen: The Ancient Church]

"The seventh-day Sabbath was solemnized [i.e. observed] by Christ, the Apostles and the primitive Christians - until the Council of Laodicea did, in a manner, quite abolish the observance of it. The Council (A.D. 364) first settled the observance of the Lord's Day" [Wm Prynne: Dissertations on the Lord's Day. Prynne was a 17th century Puritan]

"Since the institution of the Sabbath at the close of creation...there has been an unbroken line of God-loving men who have kept the seventh day of the week.... In the Western Church the seventh day continued to be observed quite generally till the fifth century." [Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge]

Coltheart's original version gratefully obtained from www.tagnet.org/llt/sabcen.htm 20th Century Roman Catholic and Protestant Confessions about Sunday Observance American Congregationalists: No authority in the New Testament for substitution of the first day for the seventh "The current notion that Christ and His apostles authoritatively substituted the first day for the seventh, is absolutely without any authority in the New Testament." Dr. Lyman Abbott, in the Christian Union, June 26, 1890 -From J.F. Coltheart

reference

reply to post by On the Edge

Well,that's a good story,but is there anything to show such legislation in the works?

Here are a couple of videos and an information link I came across today....but more will be coming on this topic from me in the future

Video: BREAKING NEWS!! SUNDAY LAW SIGNS HAVE BEGUN! (7:50 mins)


Video Sunday Laws Coming Soon (11:26 mins)


A whole lot of news media articles posted concerning sabbath and sunday link here
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Israel paving the way
Germany's road already paved
Iraq getting on-board
France getting there
India getting 'educated' on the idea
Obama campaigners push for Sunday laws?
Stirrings in the United Kingdom

Some Non-Government Organizationspushing for the laws:
- www.free-sunday.eu...
- www.europeansundayalliance.eu...
- saveoursundays.tripod.com...
- individual.utoronto.ca...
- www.tencommandmentsday.com... (A Trinity Broadcasting Network site pushing GLOBAL Sunday Laws)

reply to post by eywadevotee


There is some truth in what you are saying with this metaphysical approach but there are some errors in the extrapolation as well that lead to, in the end, incorrect conclusion on the state of existence and the state we currently find ourselves in. I would like to keep the discussion scriptural based, and historically sound from the prophetic record rather than digressing off into philosophical tangents where it is more one persons perspective over another with no solid way of establishing a truth.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

I would like to keep the discussion scriptural based, and historically sound from the prophetic record rather than digressing off into philosophical tangents where it is more one persons perspective over another with no solid way of establishing a truth.

But....
that's what religion is -- a philosophy. I don't see how you can separate the two. And you don't really seem interested in listening to anyone else's pov, which smacks of arrogance and self-righteousness in one so young and adamant. You have no more "proof" than anyone else. The facts ON THE GROUND trump the Bible. "Scripture" is not, and never again will be, pure and unadulterated, in any language. In fact, since Christ himself wrote nothing at all, it's all hearsay...

and your passion in this and other threads that YOU know the REAL truth is quite lacking in humility.

EDIT: Oh, and btw, Sunday laws (called Blue Laws) were in effect well into the 1960s (if not the 70s -- I still remember it well), and it was BORING. I hated Sundays as a kid...and when the world started going outdoors on Sunday again, it got much better.

reply to post by troubleshooter

So really the 666 is not about the man or the beast but the fourth man who appears in the fire...
...so it is not a symbol of terror but deliverance ... a symbol of the victory of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:17,18, "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

The description is very clear, if you want to close your eyes to the expressed description in the relevant text than that is your problem. If you are going to take this approach then you can basically turn the gospel into anything you'd like it to be....from the kind of questions and suggestions you put out, it actually looks like this is the case.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

So really the 666 is not about the man or the beast but the fourth man who appears in the fire...
...so it is not a symbol of terror but deliverance ... a symbol of the victory of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:17,18, "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

The description is very clear, if you want to close your eyes to the expressed description in thWe relevant text than that is your problem. If you are going to take this approach then you can basically turn the gospel into anything you'd like it to be....from the kind of questions and suggestions you put out, it actually looks like this is the case.

Unless Jesus is the focus of your gospel you are part of the beast JG.

Jesus was the Word who created and was made flesh...
...He was the purpose for Noah, Abraham and Israel...
...and the New Covenant was in His blood and His Spirit dwells within all who believe...
...there is no other Gospel JG.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

The description is very clear, if you want to close your eyes to the expressed description in the relevant text than that is your problem. If you are going to take this approach then you can basically turn the gospel into anything you'd like it to be....from the kind of questions and suggestions you put out, it actually looks like this is the case.

I really like your enthusiasm JG but you are very much a black/white either/or SDA in your thinking.

Even SDA's understand typology...
...that a historical event or symbol can find fulfillment in another context...
...for example if I say Jesus was 'the lamb slain'...
...you don't think I am saying that Jesus was a young woolly sheep...
...you know that the ceremonial symbol rehearsed by Israel for about 1500 years...
...was fulfilled in the crucifixion of a man named Jesus.

Similarly the 666 motif in The Revelation of Jesus Christ had its roots in history...
...in the story involving Nebuchadnezzar...
...and that in a sense this story describes powers that oppose the Lord's people throughout history.

Christian views of apocalyptic material fall into three main areas described as...
...preterism, historicism and futurism...
...SDA's are mostly historicists which is a school of thought that arose about the 15th century...
...because of the peceived delay of the parousia.

I think all views are right in what they affirm and wrong in what they deny...
...that is, I believe the prophecies of Daniel have their primary historical fulfillment by the end of the 1st century...
...but that principles and patterns found in the prophecies have application in European Christian history...
...and yet future fulfillment.

In this same sense SDA's are also both historicists and futurists...
...in that they believe certain prophetic fulfillments of prophecy are yet future.

You assumed that because I said that King Neb situation was 666...
...that was the only meaning of this reference in The Revelation of Jesus Christ...
...but I think this religious motif found fulfillment in Emperial Rome and the Papacy...
...and there are yet future forms of religious coersion that will come from Rome and other sources...
...like that which is suggested by the distance from the Temple mount to the Cabar stone...
...that the distance is exactly 666 nautical miles.

The problem you have is that your fundamental organising principle is wrong...
...your starting point is the historical validity of your sectarian religion...
...which leads you to all your current conclusions...
...but if you were to begin with the Lord who created, who became flesh died/rose, dwells within and is physically returning...
...that is, His triumph over all powers past present and future...
...you will see that it is He who is the unifying factor of all history, prophecy and hope.

The solution is every case is the fourth man 'like the Son of God'.

reply to post by wildtimes


Before I respond to your current post I have to ask wildtimes, what exactly are you trying to achieve on this thread? Are you sincerely seeking discussion or answers or are you just interested in name calling and trying to position yourself as the politically correct victim, to try create a contrast between the 'fundamentalist Christian' and those advocating a more pleasant sounding philosophy of 'all roads lead to eternal life'.

I am engaging you at the level you are engaging me at. If you notice my responses to various people they come at me with a certain tone either thinking they know the answer and telling me whats what or honestly asking questions so that we all grow in mutual understanding.

From your first post on this thread this is the level and respect you are giving me (reading in between the lines):
- Your opinion or words mean nothing/have no worth because you are too young to have researched anything['is that your avatar picture']
- Your words are so useless just shut your mouth and do something basic with your hands instead ['Isn't there somewhere more promising you could go? A soup kitchen, maybe?'
- If you insist on wanting to speak then perhaps the best audience for you is one who's brain is completely fried with drugs and will give you the intelligent responses you deserve, mumbling incoherent gibberish ['A crack house?]
- your agenda is evil, your a loser yadda yadda yadda
- Here is how the world really is...

What kind of response do you think I should give you....act like a quiet little mouse perhaps because you are clearly shown superior knowledge to put me right back in my deserved place (despite never engaging in the topic of the thread at hand, producing no evidence to support your case, and being completely rude to me with no just cause).
----
If you're actually after answers, discussion or learning then why didn't you start off your first post to me with something like this instead,
'I have read through your posts closely and I have some issues I want to raise as this is not meshing with my own belief-system. Your posts are very scriptural based but the Jesus I know is not like the one from the Bible, why should we but so much trust in the scriptures? What solid 'on the ground' evidence do you have that confirms the bible as something people can trust?'
----
This topic is very serious and people who follow God during the difficult period ahead are going to have to have very high trust in it and God's Word if they are going to make it through still with their faith secure.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is a excerpt from Ernie Knoll's dream Stand Fast that show at one level the kind of seriousness we are talking about.

We walk back into the corridor and the Herald says, "Come and sit here." We sit down, and he takes both of my hands. He calls me by my heavenly name and says, "I am now to show you something that will bother many. Again I tell you, hold to your courage, hold to your faith, hold to the knowledge that the Creator of all is in complete control. When you prepare this, add a note that this may be sensitive to young minds, but the mature mind will be able to understand what I am to show you." As we stand up, he looks at me and says, "If only you could fully understand the love your Creator and Savior has for you." For the first time, I notice my angel is not smiling, but has a very serious look on his face. I sense he does not want to see what he is about to show me.

We walk through the wall and I find myself at what looks like a large prison or some type of detention center. I see people all standing in a long straight line that moves forward very slowly. The people are wearing what look like paper gowns worn in a hospital. I notice they are not sad and crying, nor exuberant and happy. They are solemn but have a look of peace about them. They know and understand. I stand there watching them for quite some time as the line slowly moves forward. They all sing the same song over and over and over. I find myself starting to hum it. The song they sing is “I Surrender All.” As the line moves forward, I begin to study and think about the words as I never have before. They are now etched into my mind. "All to Jesus I surrender. All to him I freely give. I will ever love and trust him. In his presence daily live. I surrender all. I surrender all. All to thee my blessed Savior, I surrender all. All to Jesus I surrender. Humbly at his feet I bow. Worldly pleasures all forsaken. Take me, Jesus, take me now. I surrender all. I surrender all. All to thee my blessed Savior, I surrender all. All to Jesus I surrender. Make me, Savior, wholly thine. Fill me with thy love and power. Truly know that thou art mine. I surrender all. I surrender all. All to thee my blessed Savior, I surrender all. All to Jesus I surrender. Now I feel the sacred flame. O the joy of full salvation! Glory, glory, to his name!" The words keep going through my mind as I stand there. The Herald is very quiet. I now realize I am holding very tightly to his hand. Without saying anything, he moves me so that I can see where everyone is going.

Upon arrival, I fully understand. Before this long line of people are six machines. They are constructed with a large opening underneath and are laid out next to each other as beds. The bottom part is made of stainless steel with a seam in the middle of each. At the front of each bed there are vertical bars which go up. Two are spaced where a person's head would fit through. There is a large opening under all the beds where large trucks sit. I watch as the people climb up without resistance, one to a bed, and lie face down. A large, upside-down V-shaped blade drops quickly. The bed opens at the seam and the body falls to the truck below. When the truck is full, it drives off, and another takes its place. All this time while the individuals climb on the bed, they continue to sing “I Surrender All.”8

The Herald breaks his long silence. He calls me by my heavenly name, and for the first time in quite a while I look up into his face. I see streams of tears coming down over his cheeks and onto his dimples. He instructs me to look once again. I watch as holy angels are surrounding each of these individuals. He says, "Jesus could deliver all with one word, but what you see needs to happen. Watch closely." I watch as each assigned guardian angel has placed in his left arm a white robe to hold for the individual that just surrendered all. The robe is pure white with a large red border at the bottom.9 In their right hand is placed a pure silver tablet with a pure gold border and a red ribbon wrapped around it. The tablet reads “Revelation 2:10.”

["Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."]

The guardian angel takes this robe and holds it closely, as if to show love and adoration, until this person is raised from death to everlasting life. Then this person will be dressed in this very special robe. My angel says it is time to leave.

Now, when you are trying to make such a serious topic trivial and belittling me completely then excuse me if I give your words little respect in return (karma).

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

(reading in between the lines):

Not appropriate from the get-go. I say what I say clearly, and there's no need to "read between the lines" -- that's for people who think they understand the Bible and are trying to twist things around to suit them and either scare or blame others.

Never mind, I'm really not interested in SDA (though I wonder how you got roped into it).

I'm interested in helping the world improve, not condemning the whole lot! I withdraw from your "class", professor.

If you're actually after answers, discussion or learning then why didn't you start off your first post to me with something like this instead,
'I have read through your posts closely and I have some issues I want to raise as this is not meshing with my own belief-system. Your posts are very scriptural based but the Jesus I know is not like the one from the Bible, why should we but so much trust in the scriptures? What solid 'on the ground' evidence do you have that confirms the bible as something people can trust?'

Oh, I see. There was a script, too!! ... Supposed to have it memorized, in language that you find comfortable, as a prerequisite for attending. Yeah, well, I didn't get the syallabus.

Namaste

Since the OP has nothing to say to those who question him, and is accusing me of bald rudeness, I will address instead, anyone else who's been reading this thread. There are numerous websites that critique the Seventh Day Adventist faith and aim to clear up the disinformation propagated by them. So, to add some balance to the thread:
Truth or Fables

Exposing Seventh-day Adventist Fables
2 Tim 4:4 (KJV) 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Seventh-day Adventists from their beginning have turned from the "TRUTH"
the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles to the "FABLES" of their prophetess Ellen G. White.

Seventh Day Adventist Cult
Criticism of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
SDA Church - Cult or True Religion?
Facts Adventists Won't Tell You: A Christian Outreach to those trapped in cult groups.
I have no experience with them prior to now, nor to their thinking (happily!), however, I do find this thread disturbing, completely sensationalized, fearmongering, hateful and imagined dogma. So I looked into it myself, to get a more well-rounded view.

I was not rude in any way -- I directly asked some questions, respectfully, and even told the OP there were no answers required, they were simply food for his own thought. He took it as hostile, "complete rudeness", "paraphrased" (reading between the lines of the direct questions I asked him) my remarks into attacks, and has attacked and projected onto me a hostility that was neither real nor intended. To that I object.

"Is it good for ATS?"

To that end, here is a list of websites that readers may find interesting once juxtaposed to the OP's messages. I have not read them all through, nor have I read the thread all the way through, but felt in the spirit of ATS that readers should have access to the other side of the debate as well. I promote agreement with none of them...I am simply offering the links for the convenience of the curious who may not get clear answers from the OP.

Namaste

reply to post by wildtimes

Since the OP has nothing to say to those who question him,

You weren't questioning me....you were slandering and making yourself out as high and mighty. If you aren't going to participate honestly then I am not going to 'participate' in your 'questions'.

I have no experience with them prior to now, nor to their thinking (happily!), however, I do find this thread disturbing, completely sensationalized, fearmongering, hateful and imagined dogma.

If you have no experience with them then it is best not to post anything until you actually 'know' something. At least 'troubleshooter' has experience with SDAs as he was previously one and he also studied theology and history at their main college in Australia. So he is actually asking sensible questions to show the holes in the theology ('dogma' to you). So far in the questions I have responded to of his so far (all except one as I have not finished reading his attached info yet) they have shown the misunderstanding in his assertion.

a list of websites that readers may find interesting once juxtaposed to the OP's messages. I have not read them all through, nor have I read the thread all the way through

Spend more time reading and less time giving opinion based on little to no sense of fact. You must have missed the part where I say ,'it is not my intention of the thread to 'convert' people to become Adventist....Issues I am happy to quarrel over now are the Sabbath commandment, the terms of the New Covenant, and still being held to the 10 commandments as these are not interpretative but misunderstood areas. this post'

This thread is a scriptural based thread talking on the Sabbath commandment, the terms of the New Covenant, the Sea beast power of Revelation 13, it's mark and how it will be implemented. If you don't want to talk on the topic at hand or have no knowledge or insights in this matter to contribute then spend more time listening to the discussions between people.
-----
Your sought after 'on the ground evidence'
Hopefully in a few of weeks time I will put a thread out specifically on the evidence for the Jesus of the Bible and that He really came here and His dead and resurrection actually happened and that after spending about 40 more days on Earth He ascending to Heaven. I have already read The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel about 2 years ago and I am currently part way through reading the most authoritative book on the subject The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Dr. Gary Habermas. I would highly recommend both books to you. The idea that Jesus never died and traveled off to far away lands is shown to be not based on any historical fact and flies in the face of a plethora of solid independent evidence.

Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed by God by molten sulfur balls (brimestone)


Noah's Ark found (turkish government made a national park out of th site 20 years ago already)


Scientific evidence proves the Universal flood


Evidence from Archeology proves the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt


Site of the Red Sea crossing found



Chariot wheels of the Egyptian army found on one side of the crossing location to the other


guess who all those videos and discoveries are by (Ron Wyatt and Walter Veith), Adventists

"...it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." eh JG? (Acts 26:14)