Sincere help for 9/11 debunkers

**ATTENTION**

The next member who attacks another member will lose their posting privileges.

Indefinetly.

This will be the ONLY warning given on this subject. Repeat offender's accounts will be permanently disabled.

~Tenth
ATS Mod

reply to post by GiodanoBruno

Your signature is a classic straw-man argument:

"2 ALUMINUM JETLINERS WEIGHING 392TONS(fuel included) CANNOT PULVERIZE 3 STEEL/CONCRETE TOWERS WEIGHING 1 200 000TONS".

No-one (with any credibility or common sense) has EVER claimed this occurred. The planes were destroyed upon impact leaving both towers standing.

You're arguing against your own irrational nonsense, not against any established or conventional theory.

I would recommend you continue arguing against your strawman, if for no reason other than to sharpen your rhetorical skills.
Also--do it in front of a mirror for full effect.

reply to post by GiodanoBruno


Your post makes no sense.

However, if you are going to continue to suggest that the airliners weight alone was not enough, then for anyone to take you seriously, you need to compute the mass of the buildings above the impact zones. Like it or not, that weight crashing down onto the rest of the buildings contributed to their collapses.

Originally posted by soulwaxer

As I see it, you are ignoring the SYSTEMIC aspect of all the groups you mentioned, and society in general.

You are focusing on the people within the system that are being controlled by the system themselves. They are generally not the deciding factor. They are pulled into a system with it's own rules, social control, etc. I'm not talking about the very top of the chain of command here. That's a different story all together.

It helps a lot to look at the big picture. When you focus too much on the individual components, you can't see how the system works. And you certainly can't see why the system works.

I am not ignoring anything at all.

The point that I was making completely went right over your head.

Originally posted by soulwaxer

Originally posted by SimontheMagus

Originally posted by Six Sigma
Flight 93 - I know of not a single person that was at the Shanksville crash sight that does not believe Flight 93 crashed there.

Thank you for taking the time to post that.

Do you see that Six Sigma? There is more of that, but maybe it would be a better idea for you to look for it yourself, no? Just this one witness video alone should tell you that you are not up to speed.

A later quote from the man in that video .

When Der Spiegel confronts Stull with the English translation of these passages in the book and the film script, the man is speechless: "My statements were taken completely out of context. Of course there was an airplane. It's just that there wasn't much left of it after the explosion. That's what I meant when I said 'no airplane'. I saw parts of the wreckage with my own eyes, even one of the engines. It was lying in the bushes."

www.spiegel.de...

Originally posted by soulwaxer

The views of many truthers also came from real people who were there and witnessed the events. You're not seriously going to deny that are you? These days, you often get much more authentic witness videos from people using their cellphones than from the "official" television crews. An 8-year-old kid could be the best reporter available if he is in the right place at the right time. You have noticed this phenomenon, haven't you?

As for your need for me to put together a logical "Official Truther Story": Please reread my OP and take a serious look in the mirror.

I'm just telling you what I would have appreciated myself when I was still unable to see certain things as they are. The tone in which you write tells me something about your distress when dealing with this subject. I could very well be wrong about that, but I'm telling you like I see it.

It's actually more fun watching you dance around the question.

We know that it is impossible for a truther to combine all his truther facts into a rational "Official Truther Story".
So don't feel bad and get all depressed and stuff, we really weren't expecting you to do it.

Look on the bright side... you are getting really good at dancing.

reply to post by lunarasparagus

And where is that evidence of explosives? An why no audible explosions? People talk about witnesses who reported some random, intermittent booms, but why are there not, in any of the videos, audibly salient detonations which would typically be heard in the demolition of such massive buildings? Like these for example:

Ahhh, Lunarasparagus. Thank you for that thoughtful and informative reply. I do so love the hypersonic Crack! of hi explosives in the morning. It reminds me of well... hi- explosives. Something 911 did not by the way. Cool Youtube. If one has the time it is clear the sounds "controlled demolition" make. Staccato pop-pop-pop that echo for miles are the norm. Dampening for blast, vibration and shrapnel effects only barely minimize the beat of individual charges going off. It's a symphony to blasters ears.

Blast Study by Protec

And that is one report that all "explosives demolition experts" on the ATS 911 forum should read as many times as it takes to punch thru the columns and beams of their minds to realize the truth. These men are professionals that lend their services world wide bringing down buildings and other structures for a living. They are good at it and detractors should heed their professional opinion. Thank you for that PDF.

Of course many won't. They cannot see beyond their limited capacity to confuse truth with emotion or heresay. If it doesn't match their preconceived notions then it is cast aside like these two obviously will be. Believers in controlled demolition on 911 please read the above PDF...

I know how hard it is to be swayed from a position of declaring something for so long and then seeing something new for the first time and have that new information change your whole viewpoint. It does happen, sometimes.

reply to post by soulwaxer

Settle down.

Are those low res images supposed to prove that there were no "explosive demolition components" in the rubble??? Is that your line of thinking?

Why don't you point out to me in those images the following items:

1. A desk (or a part of a desk)
2. A computer (or a component of it)
3. A telephone (maybe a cellphone?)
4. An electrical outlet, a light switch, phone cables, server cables, lighting cables, ...
5. A human being.......
6. Do you get where I'm getting at?

Amazing what denial can do to a person's thinking. It's people like you that I wrote this thread for. Respectfully.

And just as respectfully, The photos of firemen in the rubble are there to show just how many professional people were actively searching for all kinds of things. From their missing comrades to any evidence that may help determine the as yet undetermined causes of all that devastation. Its easy looking back with 20/20 eyes.

Lotsa of stuff was found there in the rubble and a lot more was found later at freshkills landfill where the majority of debris sifting occurred. Watches, wallets, cell phones, shoes, etc, were recovered in large numbers. Which in itself was surprising because of the dynamic "girder bladed, cement block and glass filled blender on high" effect of the collapse.

The complicity of the government in the events of that day is something I have never contended on ATS. The complicity of the hundreds of fireman trained to identify blasting components but keeping it secret is something else again. Like I said, these guys lost friends there and surely would have come forward if they had found anything suspicious. To date not one of them has. Read the PDF if you will in my last post. It will help you to see what "experts in the field" say about it. That and a lot of other questions that still seem to remain.

I don't think I am going to do a bunch of search homework for you to bring items on your list. All of them were in fact found in quantity. If I did, I get this feeling the response would be, "So what. Heres another list. Go find that..."

But... just for you, I googled "cell phones found in 911 rubble" and presto...

reply to post by intrptr

Thanks for your reply. The OP opens with, "For people with eyes that see, it is obvious that the destruction of WTC 1, 2 and 7 was controlled demolition".

What I tried to demonstrate is that as "obvious" as controlled demolitions may appear, there are also obvious inconsistencies which cast reasonable doubts on the theory. The Protec article highlights many of them as well as anything I've read, but the testimony of the fire officers, in my mind, remains a major point of contention to the theory, and most of these controlled-demo truebelievers won't go near this information (as is apparent in this very thread). They ignore it.

And there's a lot of it.

For example, not even included in the above linked post, check out what these officers stated:

FDNY Deputy Chief Peter Hayden: "We were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o'clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o'clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse."
Firehouse Magazine, April 2002

and . . .

FDNY Lieutenant Rudolph Weindler: "So we left 7 World Trade Center. . . and Captain Varriale told Chief Coloe and myself that 7 World Trade Center was badly damaged on the south side and definitely in danger of collapse. Chief Coloe said we were going to evacuate the collapse zone around 7 World Trade Center, which we did."
Interview: January 15, 2002

As stated in the OP: "At least something deep inside you is actively trying to deal with your conflict and not completely ignoring it by turning it's focus to meaningless subjects like Lady Gaga or whatever."

Ironically, the OP has completely ignored the issues I have broached. Must be watching some Lady Gaga.

I always find the notion that debunkers are somehow trying to maintain a more palatable, cosier worldview rather suspect. After all what is more frightening?

- a world where the most advanced superpower can be caught unawares by a few fanatics, who kill thousands quite easily, thereby plunging the country into an ill-advised bellicosity that kills hundreds of thousands more and probably ends its moral authority forever. The country is exposed as panicky, ill-prepared, prejudiced and at times bloodthirsty. Its enemies are many and silent, and they may strike at any time, with methods that are unflinchingly cruel. The world is growing more uncertain and dangerous.

- a world where everything bad is the fault of some rich white guys in a secret room. If they went away it would all be fine.

I know which I find more unsettling.

As a side note, I find the OP's rationalisation of instinct over science highly instructive. It's genuinely shown me a lot about how people get to where a position where they can entertain "9/11 Truth" with any seriousness. And it obviously endorses exponent's thesis about ego.

Originally posted by waypastvne

Originally posted by soulwaxer

The views of many truthers also came from real people who were there and witnessed the events. You're not seriously going to deny that are you? These days, you often get much more authentic witness videos from people using their cellphones than from the "official" television crews. An 8-year-old kid could be the best reporter available if he is in the right place at the right time. You have noticed this phenomenon, haven't you?

As for your need for me to put together a logical "Official Truther Story": Please reread my OP and take a serious look in the mirror.

I'm just telling you what I would have appreciated myself when I was still unable to see certain things as they are. The tone in which you write tells me something about your distress when dealing with this subject. I could very well be wrong about that, but I'm telling you like I see it.

It's actually more fun watching you dance around the question.

We know that it is impossible for a truther to combine all his truther facts into a rational "Official Truther Story".
So don't feel bad and get all depressed and stuff, we really weren't expecting you to do it.

Look on the bright side... you are getting really good at dancing.

edit on 25-6-2012 by waypastvne because: (no reason given)

I don't feel bad and all depressed and 'stuff'. I'm actually feeling quite peaceful. I certainly feel no need to go into someone else's thread and derail it for fun... This thread has nothing to with proving some "Official Truther Story". This thread is about why some people are able to see the obvious and others aren't. The obvious being 2 buildings blown outwards to pieces and mostly fine powder, and 1 building being demolished by classic demolition. Who's dancing?

The only people able to put ALL the facts together are the ones who organized it. That's one of the reasons I would like to see a decent, unbiased investigation, if that would even be possible 11 years after the event. But there are more than enough facts available to prove that those buildings did not come down by planes and fire alone. I have a very good idea of how most of those fit together, but it would take me months to put all of that into writing for you. I didn't study all of that just so I could tell lazy people like you about it. I did so in order to have a better understanding of why and how my reality had been turned inside out.

Why don't you tell me why you are on threads like this (besides 'for fun')? If it's not only for fun (which is pretty pathetic in my mind), it sort of seems like an atheist reading religious threads all the time. Which is not impossible, but why would one do that? These questions apply 100 percent to this thread. Are you going to dance around them, or are you gonna be a man?

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by soulwaxer

 

Settle down.

Are those low res images supposed to prove that there were no "explosive demolition components" in the rubble??? Is that your line of thinking?

Why don't you point out to me in those images the following items:

1. A desk (or a part of a desk)
2. A computer (or a component of it)
3. A telephone (maybe a cellphone?)
4. An electrical outlet, a light switch, phone cables, server cables, lighting cables, ...
5. A human being.......
6. Do you get where I'm getting at?

Amazing what denial can do to a person's thinking. It's people like you that I wrote this thread for. Respectfully.

And just as respectfully, The photos of firemen in the rubble are there to show just how many professional people were actively searching for all kinds of things. From their missing comrades to any evidence that may help determine the as yet undetermined causes of all that devastation. Its easy looking back with 20/20 eyes.

Lotsa of stuff was found there in the rubble and a lot more was found later at freshkills landfill where the majority of debris sifting occurred. Watches, wallets, cell phones, shoes, etc, were recovered in large numbers. Which in itself was surprising because of the dynamic "girder bladed, cement block and glass filled blender on high" effect of the collapse.

The complicity of the government in the events of that day is something I have never contended on ATS. The complicity of the hundreds of fireman trained to identify blasting components but keeping it secret is something else again. Like I said, these guys lost friends there and surely would have come forward if they had found anything suspicious. To date not one of them has. Read the PDF if you will in my last post. It will help you to see what "experts in the field" say about it. That and a lot of other questions that still seem to remain.

I don't think I am going to do a bunch of search homework for you to bring items on your list. All of them were in fact found in quantity. If I did, I get this feeling the response would be, "So what. Heres another list. Go find that..."

But... just for you, I googled "cell phones found in 911 rubble" and presto...

And just for you, I googled 'fire fighters for 911 truth' and........ presto!:

firefightersfor911truth.org...

Click here to learn more about this warning.

Originally posted by soulwaxer

And just for you, I googled 'fire fighters for 911 truth' and........ presto!:

firefightersfor911truth.org...

That "organization" is a Fireman from Seattle named Erik. He was never at ground zero, but he wrote up a petition and has a purported 91 verified fire fighter signatures on it, nation-wide. I saw only two claiming to be from New York, and one of those is retired.

Originally posted by soulwaxer

And just for you, I googled 'fire fighters for 911 truth' and........ presto!:

firefightersfor911truth.org...

Eric Lawyer went to a firehouse forum and tried to spread his crap evidence around there and got his *** handed to him as a result. The NY Firefighters tore him a new one, It,s a very funny read. (unless you are a Truther then it's not so funny)

If you want to know what NY firefighters realy think of Eric Lawyer you should read this.

Eric's screen name is Koolaid 1

Firehouse

My buddy tells me, "Great guy and one hell of a fire fighter but that shift has been drinking the conspiracy cool aid from one of their officers."


Not worth anymore effort here.
Let this thread die.

GO AWAY! Your conspiracy nonsense is not wanted here. Go back to your conspiracy wackjob websites.

Next month's topic at the meeting is folding aluminum foil hats...do we need Reynolds Wrap or will generic foil work?

Go to Section 2.4, on about page 63 of the pdf....

wtc.nist.gov...

A bunch of facts produced by engineers based on laws of physics that takes all of your bullsh1t and flushes it down the toilet where it belongs.

Take your website and stick it.
__________________
Thomas Anthony, PE
Structures Specialist PA-TF1

Head peon Adamsburg VFD (and I like it that way)

Here's an idea for you, walk into the FDNY station right next to the 9/11 site and tell those guys your theory. Have an ambulance already coming because my guess is you are going to get the beating of your life. Until one of your cowardly bastards will walk out from behind your computer screen and into an FDNY firehouse and talk to guys that were there you are nothing more than pathetic pot stirring bitches seeking 15 minutes of internet fame.

www.firehouse.com...

reply to post by lunarasparagus

reply to post by waypastvne

reply to post by Ivar_Karlsen

reply to post by soulwaxer

 

And just for you, I googled 'fire fighters for 911 truth' and........ presto!:

firefightersfor911truth.org...

I would go all into it but that would be redundant. ATS: The best subject matter experts on the Internet.

Thanks guys...

Originally posted by soulwaxer

I don't feel bad and all depressed and 'stuff'. I'm actually feeling quite peaceful.

I would imagine that's because your views allow you to think of the world's problems as easily soluble.

Trust me, they're not.

Originally posted by waypastvne

Originally posted by soulwaxer




Who's dancing?

I have a very good idea of how most of those fit together, but it would take me months to put all of that into writing for you. I didn't study all of that just so I could tell lazy people like you about it.

Dance Truther Dance .

Why don't you tell me why you are on threads like this (besides 'for fun')?

Standing in the way of your little Witch Hunt is the right thing to do.

I'm not on any kind of a hunt. I'm all for rehabilitation, as I made clear earlier in this thread. Why do you feel like you're being hunted?

Originally posted by waypastvne

Originally posted by soulwaxer

And just for you, I googled 'fire fighters for 911 truth' and........ presto!:

firefightersfor911truth.org...

Eric Lawyer went to a firehouse forum and tried to spread his crap evidence around there and got his *** handed to him as a result. The NY Firefighters tore him a new one, It,s a very funny read. (unless you are a Truther then it's not so funny)

If you want to know what NY firefighters realy think of Eric Lawyer you should read this.

Eric's screen name is Koolaid 1

Firehouse

My buddy tells me, "Great guy and one hell of a fire fighter but that shift has been drinking the conspiracy cool aid from one of their officers."


Not worth anymore effort here.
Let this thread die.

GO AWAY! Your conspiracy nonsense is not wanted here. Go back to your conspiracy wackjob websites.

Next month's topic at the meeting is folding aluminum foil hats...do we need Reynolds Wrap or will generic foil work?

Go to Section 2.4, on about page 63 of the pdf....

wtc.nist.gov...

A bunch of facts produced by engineers based on laws of physics that takes all of your bullsh1t and flushes it down the toilet where it belongs.

Take your website and stick it.
__________________
Thomas Anthony, PE
Structures Specialist PA-TF1

Head peon Adamsburg VFD (and I like it that way)

I don't see how a fireman's opinion changes anything about what happened. I rely on what I see and am able accept it.