Jesus is Yahweh, Part 2. What he himself has said, and the Christophanies

I stumbled onto something truly amazing that i didn't think of, and it took a messianic jew to point this in my face. We christians often read the bible, and think of it as if it speaks soley to us, but at the time the scriptures were written there was only the Tenach (Old Testament), So when Jesus says "you search the scriptures for you think that in them you have eternal life, but they are those which bear witness of ME". He said that from the very beginning no one had seen the father's shape nor heard his voice until he was baptised...

...That shows you from the very beginning it was always Him! It was always him with Moses, who guided them in the desert 40 years, it was always him with Abraham and it was he whom Abraham spoke with when he sent the 2 angels to investigate Sodom and Gomorrah before he delivered judgement. It was him who walked with Adama and he who created Adam.

Look:

John 5: 31-47

31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

He makes an appearance to Abraham in Genesis 18, one of the 3 whom Abraham talks to while sitting in the shade in the doorway of his tent, the one he speaks to and tries to intercede for Sodom and Gomorrah is pre-incarnate Yeshua or as he is known then YHWH or IEUE.

So the Torah is about Yeshua (Jesus). Lets see what Yeshua tells him his name is back then, what he tells Moses at the burning bush:

Exodus 3:13-15

13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

So "I AM WHO I AM" in hebrew/aramaic translates as YHWH/YHVH and in paleo-hebrew that predates the ancient hebrew spoken of in Christ's time here on earth...IEUE. Abraham was seeing YHWH, who is pre-incarnate Yeshua as was Moses and as did Adam and Enoch also see.

Who did Yeshua claim to be?

John 8: 58-59

48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

What is the "Lord's Day"? The Sabbath (Day of Rest) is his day. Did Yeshua ever claim the Sabbath as his own? Let's see what Mathew says:

Matthew 12:1-11

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”

3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

In Matthew 12 Yeshua is telling them that he has authority over the Law and he is explaining to them that Moral Law supercedes Ceremonial law. He used David as an example to say that there was no sin for David stealing the showbread that was not lawful for him to take for it was to preserve life. All things belong to YHWH. Being merciful, kind and forgiving with what is his shows proper stewardship.

For those who picked up on the Sodom and Gomorrah theme, if homosexuality was an abomination to him back then, then it still is to this day. God does not change his ways for anyone. He is the same today as he was from the beginning. He is loving and merciful but there are things he will not tolerate and things he considers detestable are one of them. Those who advocate he condones homosexuality are decieving themselves. Yes homosexuals can be saved like all people but they must ask forgiveness and repent, not return to that old life like a dog to it's own vomit. The word Repent means to change your mind and no longer do the things you once did, not do them like you have a license for licentiousness.

So god gave birth to himself?



I'm confused.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Many do this to this day. They seek an indirect relationship through a pastor, than an direct relationship to Father.

He said that from the very beginning no one had seen the father's shape nor heard his voice until he was baptised...

Can you explain how you draw this conclusion? Generally curious.

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Can you explain this one for me? When Jesus said this, he was saying I have been since the beginning. Jesus was the first one created, then the elders, and etc.

I ask because above, Jesus and Father are separate. Jesus's seat is next to Father, they do not sit together, nor are together.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

was hercules zeus ?

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Many do this to this day. They seek an indirect relationship through a pastor, than an direct relationship to Father.

He said that from the very beginning no one had seen the father's shape nor heard his voice until he was baptised...

Can you explain how you draw this conclusion? Generally curious.

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Can you explain this one for me? When Jesus said this, he was saying I have been since the beginning. Jesus was the first one created, then the elders, and etc.

I ask because above, Jesus and Father are separate. Jesus's seat is next to Father, they do not sit together, nor are together.

edit on 22-6-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

All there in the OP. Eyes to see and ears to hear. Yeshua was not a created being.

John 1:1-5

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Hard to be your own creation when you existed before creation no? Lets see what Yeshua has to say to the pharisees 2000 years ago. This is also where he states he existed before David.


Matthew 22:41-45

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”

They said to Him, “The Son of David.”

43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”’?

45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.

Obviously this stumped even the law givers who spent their entire lives pouring over the scriptures and examining them intently. Pharisees were a very dedicated sect, they took studying the Law very seriously. Dead serious.

I do think Jesus tells that most people's god was not his and that means Yahweh. This speaks to Jesus calling out his god by name:

www.essene.com...

25-28 AD, Febuary 16th 25 AD to April 23, 28 AD: (3 years, 2 months, and 7 days,)Yeshua's (Essene Jesus) ministry, foundation years of Nazarenism which was later degenerated into Christianity, [But after John was handed over to the authorities, Jesus went to Galilee, proclaiming the good word of God and saying, "The time has come & the Rule of Aumen is approaching. Repent & trust in the good word."]-Mk1:14-15(Gaus) t4:12,17, Lk4:14-15, cf. Jn4:1-3,43-46a; [& he goes up the mountain & calls the ones he wanted to him, & they went to him.

--------

28, Apr 23: Yeshua the Nazarite (Jesus) crucified on the lunar Sabbath, Nisan 14th (Friday, April 23, 28 AD), [Ref: John, Unauthorized Version/Fox] [And at three o'clock, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani," which translates to "My Aumen, my Aumen, why did you desert me?] -Mk15:34(Gaus).

Thus, it appears Jesus calls his god as Aumen, which is an Egytian linked god with the triune of Ptah. And if one chases it all down to goes back to the Sumerian god Enki.

While Yahweh and Jehovah trace back to Sumerian god Enlil.

At the moment Jesus is close to being killed---he calls out Aumen in speaking to god.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

All there in the OP. Eyes to see and ears to hear. Yeshua was not a created being.

In the beginning Jesus was the first born. No, he was no created as man is, but he was created.

Each time someone says that Yahweh and Jesus were one and the same character, I wonder where people get this idea from. It can hardly be from the Bible, as the Yahweh-character and the Jesus-character are so different to each other that it is unimaginable to even hypothize that they would be one and the same.

For instance; if Jesus and Yahweh are one and the same, then how come Jesus do not know the time for his own return?

Matt. 24:35-37 Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away. 36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Also, does the following sound like Jesus?

Leviticus 26 Punishment for Disobedience

14“‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. 17I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.

18“‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. 19I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. 20Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of the land yield their fruit.

21“‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.

23“‘If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. 25And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. 26When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied.

27“‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. 32I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. 33I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.

36“‘As for those of you who are left, I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight. They will run as though fleeing from the sword, and they will fall, even though no one is pursuing them. 37They will stumble over one another as though fleeing from the sword, even though no one is pursuing them. So you will not be able to stand before your enemies. 38You will perish among the nations; the land of your enemies will devour you. 39Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their fathers’ sins they will waste away.

Its a shame christians can't see the seperation between the Father and the Son...

They are not one and the same...

:shk:

Originally posted by Akragon
Its a shame christians can't see the seperation between the Father and the Son...

They are not one and the same...

:shk:

It's shame you can't see that it was Yeshua there all along. The Father is Spirit even Yeshua said so, those were physical manifestations of God. No eyes, no ears.

reply to post by Nightchild


Yes when people with your like mind say these things they do so with the thoughts that the Father is Yahweh, but you are discounting what Christ is actually saying. He didn't make this concept terribly hard to understand, he stressed this concept over and over so much that a child could understand it. Children would run to him without knowing him, what did innocent children see that you cannot?

Originally posted by jhill76
he was no created as man is, but he was created.

One of the Biblical authorities that the Son was not created is found in John ch1 vv3;
"All things were made through him" (ie the Word).
If "all things" were created through him, then he cannot be counted among the "all things" that were created.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


How could Jesus ever have been described as being like a devouring fire on the top of a moutain?

Exodus 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

All there in the OP. Eyes to see and ears to hear. Yeshua was not a created being.

In the beginning Jesus was the first born. No, he was no created as man is, but he was created.

Fail.

Jesus was not created.
"The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water. Then God SAID,...."

How did God create?
He spoke.
What did He speak?
The Word.
Who is the Word?
Jesus.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He existed in the beginning with God.
Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.
The Word gave life to everything that was created, and his life brought light to everyone.
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." (John 1:1-5)

God is the Spirit that is hovering over the face of the deep.
Jesus is the Words that were spoken by that Spirit.
They are two manifestations of the same Entity.

But you should already know that since you are from above.

reply to post by stupid girl

Jesus was not created. "The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water. Then God SAID,...."

I am speaking of the very beginning, not the account of the beginning you have in the word. That beginning is not written.

Surely you know that heaven and the angels were created, the angels helped design the attributes of man, then man was created. The bible speaks about Satan, but does it give an account of when he was created? You are quick to discount something, because you do not have all of the information.

Originally posted by TheFogHorn
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

How could Jesus ever have been described as being like a devouring fire on the top of a moutain?

Exodus 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

You answered your own question with the verse you quoted.

What were they looking at?

The Glory of the Lord.
Or Him in His Spiritual essence.

Plus it says that is how it was perceived by the children of Israel.

Are you the volcano guy?

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by stupid girl

 

Jesus was not created. "The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water. Then God SAID,...."

I am speaking of the very beginning, not the account of the beginning you have in the word. That beginning is not written.

Surely you know that heaven was created and the angels, the angels helped design the attributes of man, then man was created.

edit on 22-6-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

Heaven was created.
Jesus was not, He was already there.

Are you implying that God was unable to manifest speech unless He created Jesus?

reply to post by stupid girl

Heaven was created. Jesus was not, He was already there.

Yes, he was there before anyone else. But, Father made/created/manifested him first.

Are you implying that God was unable to manifest speech unless He created Jesus?

Where does this come from?

Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by TheFogHorn
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

How could Jesus ever have been described as being like a devouring fire on the top of a moutain?

Exodus 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

You answered your own question with the verse you quoted.

What were they looking at?

The Glory of the Lord.
Or Him in His Spiritual essence.

Plus it says that is how it was perceived by the children of Israel.

Are you the volcano guy?

He made the ground tremble, he threw out balls of brimstone (sulphar), he laid ground to waste, he spewed out fiery wrath, he blew smoke out of his nostrils?