Why all the community anamocity against abductee stories?

reply to post by ZetaRediculian

So I think my issue is that this is only for folks who subscribe to the "paranormal" explaination of things given by the folks who subscribe to the "paranormal" explaination of things.

A few years ago, my parents were in bed and were woken up by the sound of heavy footsteps coming up the stairs. The footsteps walked along the landing and stopped. They thought that I'd come around for a late visit and called out my name. No answer. My dad got up and checked out downstairs to see if some intruder was in the house. Nobody there. Doors secure.

We could explain it as simultaneous hypnapompic hallucination that, combined with a folie à deux, led them to believe an imaginary event was real. We could say that a hitherto unnoticed sequence of settling floorboards had been misinterpreted. We could even go further and say a rumbling truck passed the house and some cultural influence led them to believe they heard footsteps.

Me? I believe they heard footsteps. Is that 'paranormal?' When my dad was looking for a burglar, it would suggest that neither of them 'subscribed to paranormal explanations.' With doors locked and they both being alibis for each other...it was certainly *abnormal* for those who cringe at the term 'paranormal.'

Here's why I think there is animosity towards abductee stories (especially ones revealed here): when an individual or group of people witness a UFO it's a phenomenon that exists in and of itself, it's not subjective, and it occurs without presumption. You see a UFO, fine, perhaps someone else saw it too and perhaps they'll come forward and give your story weight, who knows?

But when an abduction story is related, where there is ZERO evidence to substantiate any part of it, the person relating the personal account will always be suspect and derided for the simple discrepency that, unlike a UFO "event" in all it's respective empirical or nonempirical elements, the abduction phenomenon has a personal quality to it that sets it's witness apart from any additional or extraneous version of the truth. So often people interpret these abduction tales not only in the "they just want attention" light but also in the derisive light of "they must believe they're special" light, and in these days people with half-a-brain just don't have time for another "look at me cause I'M SPECIAL!!" charity case.

Originally posted by moonweed

Originally posted by Kang69
People don't take UFO abductees stories seriously well.. get ready for it. because its a personal story... with not one piece of evidence! I'm convinced that UFO abductees had a bad time with '___' or some bad shrooms. Either way most of them are trolls.

Aliens made us through DNA splicing though thousands of years ago. Check.
Human DNA has not changed in thousands of years. Check.
The answer I hear to most abducting reasons is they are studying us for our DNA.

These guys most be patient and persistent bastards to be abducting a species for thousands of years and keep waiting for our DNA to change. And all these nighttime UFO videos are great. UFO's with beacons telling the world there their. Ever seen a stealthfigher before? It does not tell the world or it's enemies its there, thats the point.

It's a dangerous belief this, more distraction from the small group of people that rule this world. And their not aliens. Bilderberg. Secret society's are the real watchmen here.

Greatest part. The history channel hosts ancient aliens. Of all channels.

ok....since when did abductees have a "bad experience with '___' or shrooms"??? can you explain the Betty and Barney Hill case??? Travis Walton???? pretty good chance you can't....nobody can.....anyone that says they can prove those cases are bogus, or say they never happened...are full of #.....

I understand there are many similarities between the '___' experiences and the abduction experience. Lately I have been fascinated by the possible '___' - UFO connection. '___' is endogenous in mamals including humans.
For this to be released, certain conditions have to be met. It's detectable in people having a near death experience or an out of body experience. True that nobody can prove or disprove this but then nobody can prove these were alien abductions either. Both are theories.

reply to post by jritzmann

So, you're typing on the largest database in human history - go look them up and learn more. I highly recommend "The Trickster and the Paranormal", even though I don't subscribe to all of it, it's still a groundbreaking book in regard to what surrounds perceived paranormal experiences and events.

great stuff..thanks for that

Thank you all for your replies. I tend to lean towards the theory that abductions fills people with a Primordial fear, a subconcious sense of powerlessness.

Originally posted by MerkabaMeditation
Thank you all for your replies. I tend to lean towards the theory that abductions fills people with a Primordial fear, a subconcious sense of powerlessness.

I cant remember where I heard this but doesn't fear lead to anger and hate and ultimately the Dark Side? Possibly the answer this is.

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian

Originally posted by MerkabaMeditation
Thank you all for your replies. I tend to lean towards the theory that abductions fills people with a Primordial fear, a subconcious sense of powerlessness.

I cant remember where I heard this but doesn't fear lead to anger and hate and ultimately the Dark Side? Possibly the answer this is.

If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects.

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
So I think my issue is that this is only for folks who subscribe to the "paranormal" explaination of things given by the folks who subscribe to the "paranormal" explaination of things.

Actually to the contrary, we've gotten many accounts that more or less start with "I don't know if this is anything but..." which are actually some of the more interesting ones.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

reply to post by moonweed


What's your point? Did these people bring back any tangible evidence at all? No. Are these people hoaxing gullible small minded people to sell a book? Yes.

I can't believe you people actually believe this crap. The best part, they're making money from you!

Let me ask you this. Why would a UFO have a light on it? Almost every UFO video or story I hear people see they see a light in the sky. Utter nonsense. Why would a UFO, (that does not want to be noticed) reveal itself like a Christmas tree? And if someone says so they don't collide with human made aircraft I will shoot milk out of my news.

They travel light years to get here, have far better technology, but for some reason they don't want to camouflage themselves?

Deep down you UFO'rs now this is all bull#, just like most religion. You have to have something to believe in.

No evidence at all, just personal stories. Again, if you believe in this, you might as well believe in Spiderman, Batman and the Easter Bunny.

reply to post by Murgatroid

They LIED. They ALWAYS lie. They are demons and their father is behind ALL lies.

Let me ask you, what lies have Aliens told you? And, can you relate just one lie that Satan told a human? just one. And also, provide the names of any humans Satan murdered? On the other hand, How many has God killed?

I get so tired of Christians with their "all aliens are Demons!" rhetoric, and not a one of them knows a thing about ETs, or Demons for that matter. Ever studied Demonology? Thought not.
How do you know? Just because a website says it doesn't make it true. After all, I just might me an ET myself, as could your neighbour, family member, or even a few of your church members. You would not even know, would you? This is just the animosity the OP was talking about, right here. Wild statements from one who know not thing one about it.

Religiously motivated hatred, animosity and intolerance

reply to post by Starwise

Its not on the internet because most of us want anonymity.....
There are many secret data bases...That I know for a fact.

Right on, I know of these too, and some support groups. And you are right about anonymity, the main reason abductees don't post more in here is the religious folks calling everything demons, and insulting people right and left. Oh, they yell free speech, but I too have that right. I still today suffer from my own abduction, and yes, it was an abduction, for I had no say in the matter. And I would think demons would have better things to do than fly about in metal craft and pose as aliens. some people are so brainwashed by religion it is a wonder they can even dress themselves without an order from their God.

Originally posted by MerkabaMeditation
As an abductee myself I wanted to ask the UFO community why there is so much anamocity against our stories? I have been there myself, when I tell a person or even a organization about a flying saucer they are very interested, but if I also add my abduction story the person looks at me like I'm mad/lying an the UFO organization does not even bother replying on my report. Many people today accept that UFO's are real and under intelligent control, but that the pilots of these crafts interacting with humans is deemed so impossible that claiming being part of this instantly gives you the crazy stamp. I also see this here at ATS, people reporting a UFO are believed by many, but abductee reports get no replies or comments like "nice story, you should be an author" etc. A flying saucer story with no proof seems to be accepted by many, but a abductee story with equally no proof is scoffed. So, why is this the case? If you accept intelligently controlled UFO's, is it really such a far stretch accepting that they occationally land and their occupants interact with us?

edit on 20-6-2012 by MerkabaMeditation because: (no reason given)

(This may seem as if i am trying to be harsh but i can assure you that is not my intention)



Seeing a UFO or being abducted by aliens is a completely different context so at least to me it is not very surprising that people react differently in that manner when confronted with those 2.


I think that people who believe what you or anyone else simply tells them that they have been abducted by aliens just because you or anyone else told them so are even crazier ,Unless they had ample time and information to even have at least a grounded reason to believe you. There are many more people in the world that will lie about and tell story's in which they can play the victim role in order to get attention for whichever reason then there are people that have actually been abducted by aliens.

This is a simple fact and one we do not even need to think about , it is the first sort of thing people will think of if you seem otherwise sane to them which is why people will give you that look, not surprisingly of course.


I have to ask , What do you expect from people when you tell this to them ?

Originally posted by Kang69
Let me ask you this. Why would a UFO have a light on it? Almost every UFO video or story I hear people see they see a light in the sky. Utter nonsense. Why would a UFO, (that does not want to be noticed) reveal itself like a Christmas tree? And if someone says so they don't collide with human made aircraft I will shoot milk out of my news.

They travel light years to get here, have far better technology, but for some reason they don't want to camouflage themselves?

You're on the ETH bend of the subject, which doesn't fit the phenomenon. So, that's your first problem. The "field" doesn't define this enigma in any solid fashion. Therefore, it's an unknown - despite what some would claim.

But let's go with the light thing for a second regardless: if it's got a light, moving erratically, people call it a UFO. In all likelihood it's not representative of the enigma, but rather a rare natural occurrence, or some highly developed aircraft being tested or flown routinely.

But there are very odd sightings of things in the sky (and ground) that seem to defy those as far as we can tell. So they too show luminous effects. That would say to most people that whatever it is, it wants to be seen - but is by nature elusive.

This is where the ETH doesn't fit (but only one of many reasons). So you can bash that theory all you like. Most serious minded people looking into this topic find in pretty short order, that the ETH doesn't fit the characteristics of the phenomenon reported (which is a lot more complex and bizarre than little green men from planet X).

reply to post by jritzmann


Right, can you provide any evidence or video at least of these objects that are not man made? Most of these videos I see are either CGI, or just lights in the sky.

The problem I have in believing in this, well, is because most of them are personal experiences, which don't mean anything. You have to have physical tangible evidence, or at least a video that's not in CGI.

Originally posted by Kang69

Right, can you provide any evidence or video at least of these objects that are not man made? Most of these videos I see are either CGI, or just lights in the sky.

Of course not. You're already working at a deficit if you're arguing from the standpoint that this is extraterrestrial. Videos? LOL...no video is going to tell you tell you anything like what you're looking for. None. No footage can tell you something like that. So again you're working from a negative again.

Originally posted by Kang69
The problem I have in believing in this, well, is because most of them are personal experiences, which don't mean anything. You have to have physical tangible evidence, or at least a video that's not in CGI.

Well firstly you don't have to believe anything. But if you're willing to hang a belief on a video at all that's a problem on your end.

Physical evidence? Well there's another problem. If there's physical evidence, what makes you think that it'd be recognizable if it isn't "from here". What makes you think the enigma operates in physical reality the way we know it? Purely experiential data is actually more than you think it is - people have been convicted and executed on less experiential data than what we have in this subject.

It confounds me that people come into this and demand some sort of "proof" that would suit them - as if they're entitled to get it from this phenomenon. I don't blame them, as we live in this society of instant gratification. But this (and many other things) don't work that way. To boot, they've already got a preconceived notion of what it is, based on nothing.

The UFO /alien question is an unknown. Period. We don't know what it is, or what it represents. We can ponder theory all we like but that's all it is. Going out to look for evidence of anything before knowing more, or assuming it owes us proof - has been the issue of UFOLogy since it's more modern inception.

Here's the endgame: things such as "abduction", and sightings of objects of all variety (even those seen today) have been reported by people of all walks long before modern flight, and certainly long before there was a "UFO" subject such as we know today. I'm not talking about interpretations willy nilly connected to UFOs. I'm talking about sightings clearly stated by people before there was manned flight of any kind whatsoever.

So that worthless "personal experience"? It's actually worth a lot more than you think when it connects to this subject as clearly as it does (even in modern times).

Clearly something is going on, and it certainly seems to be external from us. So, if you're going to call something out - you need to be clear what you're calling out. You're pinpointing one theory out of multitudes and calling for proof. It's rather absurd. But, I understand you've been poisoned by some of the more vocal proponents of this subject that it is extraterrestrial or something. They don't know. No one does. The ET answer is just the easiest one people can understand. That it doesn't fit several pieces of the issue doesn't matter to them - they want an answer and this one is it. Again, there's your instant gratification. Equally as absurd.

So in the end, the subject is much more deep and complex than the "answer" you're looking for, or the notion you refuse to "believe" until you get the proof you want. It's not about you or what you want. Its about looking for what this represents and what effect it has had on people who've experienced it throughout recorded history.

reply to post by jritzmann


This is a really different view then what is commonly believed.

Now I don’t fancy myself a skeptic or a debunker or anything of the sort.

I tend to believe that human minds are really good at "seeing" things that aren't there. Basically taking random noise and making it into something more or less human-like. A light in the sky become an orb or a craft that is intelligently controlled, a low res picture of a crater on the moon becomes a base of some sort. Not only are brains good at coloring in the momentarily fleeting noises but noise that is sitting right in front of you that you can study. Not full-blown hallucinations, just add-ons. The opposite is also true, taking an unknown and force fitting it into to whatever mundane thing that sorta fits. All random lights look like or remind us of something else.

Distinguishing one face from many is also what human brains are good at. Since a face contains lots of data that we can compare to other faces, we can do this well. This is what humans do just like distinguishing smells are what dogs do. So I don't buy the "witness-convicting" argument entirely.

I believe it is possible that the same thing is going on at night when we sleep. Our brains produce random noise and imagery while we sleep. Sleep is complicated and requires different parts of our brains to shut off and do different things to work correctly. Occasionally due to stress and other factors, things get out of whack and you can sleep walk, sleep talk, lucid dream, have sleep paralysis....

When I have sleep paralysis, I can see things, feel things and hear things. On the onset I will hear a very loud electrical buzzing. This "noise" fills up my whole body and is quite disturbing and very unpleasant. Since I worked in mental health facilities and worked with people that had seizures, when I first experienced this, I thought I was having a seizure. I am frozen, can’t move or talk. It takes every bit of focus to just move a finger. I try to call out for help and can't. I fight it with every ounce of strength. People come in my room. People that should be there like my girlfriend. They talk to me. I have whole conversations with people; everything in my room is exact when i look around. The clock has a time on it. Sometimes there is a feeling of presence. I do occasionally "break out" of the state and there is nothing like reality. After a moment I will fall back to "sleep" and the noise starts again.

Most of the time this is a really unpleasant, yet very cool experience.

The only way I really know how to "defeat" this is by "embracing the noise". I don't fight it, just observe. The effect I get when I do this is that the "noise" subsides and is replaced by swirling imagery and then lucid dreaming. This is where I know I am dreaming and can control my dreams...I can fly and do whatever I want...I always end up having sex....

I have NEVER seen anything that looks like an alien or an elf or whatever. No hags on the end of my bed. I have had the feeling of a demonic presence.

Alien abduction stories and the like have always scared me since I was a child. The “Betty and Barney Hill case” was basically sold to me by my father as "real" (and it may be) when I was like 8....and there it was on TV on one of those spooky UFO shows just confirm my fear.

I read about the theory of sleep paralysis and alien abduction a long time ago. I have read a lot of abduction accounts. I tried to induce a sleep paralysis-alien abduction thing and just can't. not that long ago I would read about alien abductions and watch everything about alien abductions and aliens on whatever show I could find and in bed right before sleep and never the skeptical point of view. That would ruin it. I got to the point where I felt like grey aliens would walk in my room at night at any moment or when I walked into the bathroom or kitchen in the middle of the night, they would be there. One night a few months ago, I felt a "paralysis" coming on...I was ready for my paralysis-abduction thing to happen. I was so scared that it snapped me out of it. I was too scared to just let it happen. I haven't had an episode since...so we shall see.

A few months ago, my girlfriend told me of weird "dream" ....she couldn't move, a neighbor was looking in her window spying....it seemed real. She asked “how do you know it's not real?” In short, she was really confused. She never heard of sleep paralysis. I explained what it was and it made sense to her.

Is it possible that people who don't know about this type of thing actually get confused with reality?

But what about ALL the cases where the abductees are not asleep? The only thing I can say is that nobody saw them being abducted or saw them sleeping either. It’s the same as everything else, a strange story. The one thing I am certain of in all this is that brains hallucinate.

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
Is it possible that people who don't know about this type of thing actually get confused with reality?

Oh absolutely. In fact I'm convinced that when people undergo hypnotic regression (a dangerous and foolish "tool" to be messing with, unreliable at best, and dangerous at worst - that's a whole other story) for a nighttime event, this is what the genesis is. Co-creation by unskilled investigators fills in the blanks...and there ya go.

Some. Maybe a lot. far from all.

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
But what about ALL the cases where the abductees are not asleep? The only thing I can say is that nobody saw them being abducted or saw them sleeping either.

That's equally untrue. There are shared experiences of every kind - however you won't hear about these very much as more often than not they don't fit the mold, or preconceived notion the mainstream UFOlogical figures want to push. I've had many people on my program over the years that had shared experiences - and those cannot be put down to sleep paralysis, nor drugs, drinking, etc. Many are far weirder than simple alien abduction scenarios - which are pushed by the Jacobs and Hopkins of the field. That's why they don't fit. They are selectively ignored, and reduced to outlier data. This is *the* most critical mistake of abduction researchers.

There are massive clues in the high strangeness. But no one wants to talk about, or acknowledge it.

Hallucinations. Well now you're talking about altered states. This is THE most important part of "abductions" no one talks about. The altered state is part and parcel to *some* of these events.

The problem here we're not talking about is this experience (whatever it is) has been misrepresented for decades by those "researching" it. Until people are willing to strip away this regression crap, the little alien doctors, the hybrid childen - all that junk - it's never going to be adequately studied, because people are trying to apply study to bad data to begin with.

Originally posted by jritzmann

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
But what about ALL the cases where the abductees are not asleep? The only thing I can say is that nobody saw them being abducted or saw them sleeping either.

That's equally untrue. There are shared experiences of every kind - however you won't hear about these very much as more often than not they don't fit the mold, or preconceived notion the mainstream UFOlogical figures want to push. I've had many people on my program over the years that had shared experiences - and those cannot be put down to sleep paralysis, nor drugs, drinking, etc. Many are far weirder than simple alien abduction scenarios - which are pushed by the Jacobs and Hopkins of the field. That's why they don't fit. They are selectively ignored, and reduced to outlier data. This is *the* most critical mistake of abduction researchers.

There are massive clues in the high strangeness. But no one wants to talk about, or acknowledge it.

Hallucinations. Well now you're talking about altered states. This is THE most important part of "abductions" no one talks about. The altered state is part and parcel to *some* of these events.

The problem here we're not talking about is this experience (whatever it is) has been misrepresented for decades by those "researching" it. Until people are willing to strip away this regression crap, the little alien doctors, the hybrid childen - all that junk - it's never going to be adequately studied, because people are trying to apply study to bad data to begin with.

OK. I got where you are going with this now. This is really intriuging and I will be paying close attention to this.

Originally posted by Kang69
reply to post by jritzmann

 

What's your point? Did these people bring back any tangible evidence at all? No. Are these people hoaxing gullible small minded people to sell a book? Yes.

I can't believe you people actually believe this crap. You have to have physical tangible evidence, or at least a video that's not in CGI.

Physical evidence that the phenomena are not an illusion or delusion

Another aspect of the so called alien abduction phenomena is the implants that people claim to have left in their bodies after they have been abducted. This may be the smoking gun. We have physical evidence that the phenomena are not an illusion or delusion. This is hard-core evidence that can be studied in a lab and put through a regimen of scientific tests.

Dr. Roger Leir has had the objects tested by some of the most prestigious labs in the USA. I asked Dr. Leir what he thought the purpose of the implants were and he informed me that his best guess was that they were changing the DNA of the person in whom they were inserted. He doesn’t believe that they are tracking devices. LINK ~ L.A. Marzulli's Blog

Another very interesting thread about this:

Amazingly, on analysis with a scanning electron microscope at NMT Laboratory, it was found that the implant WAS CONNECTED TO THE PATIENT’S NERVE ENDINGS! It was also covered by unidentifiable biological material that prevented ‘rejection’ by the patient’s immune system. LINK

This video talks about these abductee implants at the 9 min. point:






ATS interview - Dr. Roger Leir

Originally posted by SpookyVince
reply to post by Xtraeme

 

It is a long time I've read something with as much good sense as this.

By the way, how do you know it was Panera?

I checked the receipt. Hopefully my friend didn't steal someone elses! Though even if I hadn't checked, to be credulous and respectful of those who have earned our trust isn't a failing. It's a sign of a strong relationship. And this gets to my larger contention, that critical thinking is different from debunking. Unfortunately skepticism has become associated with the latter. In truth, nowadays the reason I lean away from my normal skeptical tendencies is because skepticism has over-representation. I find it alarming how many people are unaware that we can give incorrect identifications to things which may sound plausible but that in reality fails to provide the full real story. Plausibility should never replace the search for actuality.