A favorable view of the French by the U.S. after WWII

Since some posters out there are so intent on insisting France never won any war and the French never showed courage in anything, I would like to post this very interesting document I found. It's called "112 Gripes about the French", and it was published in 1945 by the 'Information & Education Division' of the US Occupation Forces in France.

Interestingly, some of those gripes are still VERY actual.

The link is here: e-rcps.com...

104. "After France fell, the French laid down and let the Germans walk all over them. They just waited for us to liberate them. Why didn't they put up a fight?"

Millions of French men, women and children put up a fight that took immense guts, skill and patience.

The Fighting French never stopped fighting - in the RAF North Africa, Italy, and up through France with the US 7th Army.

Here is how the French people inside France fought the Germans after the fall of France:



They sabotaged production in war plants. They destroyed parts, damaged machinery, slowed down production, changed blue-prints
They dynamited power plants, warehouses. transmission lines. They wrecked trains. They destroyed bridges. They damaged locomotives.
They organized armed groups which fought the German police, the Gestapo, the Vichy militia. They executed French collaborationists.
They acted as a great spy army for SHAEF in London. They transmitted as many as 300 reports a day to SHAEF on German troops' movements, military installations, and the nature and movement of military supplies.
They got samples of new German weapons and explosive powder to London.
They ran an elaborate "underground railway" for getting shot-down American and British flyers back to England. They hid, clothed, fed and smuggled out of France over 4,000 American airmen and parachutists (Getting food and clothes isn't easy when you're on a starvation ration yourself. It's risky to forge identification papers). Every American airman rescued meant half a dozen French lives were risked. On an average, one Frenchman was shot every two hours, from 1940 to 1944 by the Germans in an effort to stop French sabotage and assistance to the Allies.

The Germans destroyed 344 communities (62 completely) for "crimes" not connected with military operations.

Perhaps the Germans realized better than we do the relentless fight against them which the French people waged.

An official German report, quoted in the Christian Science Monitor on December 26, 1942, stated sadly: "For systematic inefficiency and criminal carelessness they (the French) are unsurpassed in the history of modern industrial labor".

[edit on 5-10-2004 by John bull 1]

It wasn't the PEOPLE of France who surrendered, it was their military. It was the PEOPLE of France who actually fought an insurgent war against the Nazis, aiding the Allies. PEOPLE like you and me.


But you know what, you will find very few people who care.

America: The best entertained and least informed country on the planet.

As a contrary view to this rose tinted view of France I would ask you to read

www.guardian.co.uk...

This points to new evidence that has recently emerged showing the depth of french collaberation with the Germans during WW2

Also last year a book came out (alas I have no reference to hand) about the "resistance". It showed that the resistance was largely a myth and in reality only a few hundred brave French souls were prepared to go underground to fight the Germans

Thus demonstrating that cowardice and corruption was not just the perogative of French leaders - but was firmly entrenched among the population as a whole.

Don't feel bad about - many nations have distincitive traits - good and bad. France just happens to have corruption and cowardice as theirs. Happy to discuss others!

crossfire - either you are very young or you are very conceited. You do realize you are saying that an entire nation has cowardice as a trait of character? That amounts to saying the alleged cowardice of the French is genetic. I won't pass judgement on that.

France was deeply ashamed of what its collaborationist government had done under Marshal P�tain (who was tried and condemned to prison for life, due to his age - he was 87) and his Prime Minister Pierre Laval (who was hanged).

Besides, after fighting for the liberation for years, de Gaulle, in 1944-45, had to take a broken and devastated country and turn it towards the future - no wonder he would have tried to take the focus away from the crimes of the P�tain government. He wanted to get the French back to work and back in action.

Originally posted by crossfire
As a contrary view to this rose tinted view of France I would ask you to read

www.guardian.co.uk...

This points to new evidence that has recently emerged showing the depth of french collaberation with the Germans during WW2

Also last year a book came out (alas I have no reference to hand) about the "resistance". It showed that the resistance was largely a myth and in reality only a few hundred brave French souls were prepared to go underground to fight the Germans

Thus demonstrating that cowardice and corruption was not just the perogative of French leaders - but was firmly entrenched among the population as a whole.

Don't feel bad about - many nations have distincitive traits - good and bad. France just happens to have corruption and cowardice as theirs. Happy to discuss others!

You actually base your hate or whatever it is on one article? You can not judge an entire nation on that. In Belgium there where also people collaborating as where there people who resisted and joined underground resistance, putting their and their relatives lives at risk.
So Belgium is a country full of cowards and corrupt people as well? How can you say that when you are easy sitting there, you don�t even know what Nazi�s did to our countries and the people living here.
Inform yourself, learn more about it. Learn how the Nazi�s threatened and threated people who where resisting. Read what they did to their relatives. Read what they did to entire villages. And maybe you will understand then that it is not so easy as you explain it.
And I know what I am talking about. I have actually family who was in the resistance and who was brought to one of the most horrible places in history, Auschwitz. Did you actually ever talked to someone who has been there? Did you actually talked to someone who has been there his relatives and did they tell you how they where told they where going to follow if it didn�t stop? Did you talk to people who�s family had been murdered and shown to the village as a warning in case there where more cases of sabotage etc.?
Get your facts straight and don�t talk **** like this because you disrespect those who opposed the agressor and died for it, you disrespect those who paid with their lives, you disrespect their families who didn�t know what happened to their husband,father,mother,brother untill after the war. You disrespect people that where living under true horror and didn�t have much resources to put an end to it though some tried, with all the consequences.
And I truely hope that NONE of us will have to experience the same!

[edit on 5-10-2004 by Calibre]

crossfire: Read your post to yourself before you click Send. If they sound stupid and racist and ignorant, don't bother.

Also last year a book came out (alas I have no reference to hand) about the "resistance". It showed that the resistance was largely a myth and in reality only a few hundred brave French souls were prepared to go underground to fight the Germans

And, um, that's a valid source. A book that came out last year that you don't appear to have even read?

Thus demonstrating that cowardice and corruption was not just the perogative of French leaders - but was firmly entrenched among the population as a whole.

Don't feel bad about - many nations have distincitive traits - good and bad. France just happens to have corruption and cowardice as theirs.

Next time you wonder why some people hate Americans for no apparent reason, grab a mirror and say something to your reflection. Chances are you're going to unconsciously want to kick your own arse.

And of course the French were only too happy to put hundreds of thousands of people into the concentration camps you mention.

And yes - a nation can have traits - if you like to call it that. I call it common characteristics in many of that nation. This is hardly news - Polish jokes in the USA are an example of this. Many nation's people have similar characteristics (as do races of course). For the French it is cowardice and corruption - but they are also a very aesthetic people.

You should not feel threatened by that .

Hard to figure out national traits with country like France. They are historically Keltic, Latin and Germanic. This means they would have the traits of all three of these ethnicities??

It's very dangerous to lump a group of people together, especially a group like the French who have been around for a thousand years.

Typical American perspective on the world.

The Germans have a couple of nicknames for Americans:

Birnekopf ( pearhead, as in the shape of Americans heads. My wife(German) says the same thing. Americans have big heads)

Kaugummiknatscher(which means something like someone who smacks their gum when they chew it. They say Americans always have a piece of gum in their mouths.)

Are these stereotypes true?

crossfire:

And yes - a nation can have traits - if you like to call it that. I call it common characteristics in many of that nation. This is hardly news - Polish jokes in the USA are an example of this. Many nation's people have similar characteristics (as do races of course). For the French it is cowardice and corruption - but they are also a very aesthetic people.

You should not feel threatened by that .

Polish jokes are a reflection on the Polish people as a whole? Name me a "characteristic" of a person born in Poland. A personality trait that the whole country shares.

Do you get upset when you hear people say "Oh, Americans are just idiotic loudmouths. They speak so loudly because they actually have nothing to say. They're hung up on Puritanism, they're ignorant about the world around them, and they're the worst lovers in the world."

Hmmm? Cuz I've heard all those things many times while travelling. Even experienced it firsthand a few times... I guess it's just people "noticing" things, right? No harm done.

Thanks for clearing that up, and good luck with all those "American problems".

Originally posted by crossfire
And of course the French were only too happy to put hundreds of thousands of people into the concentration camps you mention.

And yes - a nation can have traits - if you like to call it that. I call it common characteristics in many of that nation. This is hardly news - Polish jokes in the USA are an example of this. Many nation's people have similar characteristics (as do races of course). For the French it is cowardice and corruption - but they are also a very aesthetic people.

You should not feel threatened by that .

I do know family history does not mean I am right. But I do know that you don�t seem to know what you are talking about. You can not name and call an entire nation cowards and corrupt for the actions of not even 50% of the population?! Do I call you a murderer because your gouverment sponsored dicators throughout the years? No, I don�t. Because I believe in the individual that we all are. Everyone is different, there is good, bad ones. But I refuse to believe and to judge an entire nation. I think that is racism and just plain wrong. It is not that some French dudes collaborated that all of them are cowards and corrupt.
Look first at your own gouvernment and history before you start the name calling please. I think you could be surprised with what you find out.

I don�t understand why you try to bash always the French. It seems as if you have some personla vendetta going on with them. Like you said to me, Family things does not mean you are right. Neither do subjective,close to racistic opinions mean you are right.

[edit on 5-10-2004 by Calibre]

I guess then that as a Canadian I'm an irredeemable peacenik, it's a character trait.

The French shouldn't feel bad about this? Could an entire nation define itself or accept to be defined by cowardice or corruption? Would you see the French going around saying "Yes, we're very aesthetic, but when it comes to war, don't count on us because we're cowards"?

I think that when we talk about "character traits" we have to look at the culture and values of a nation - and those usually don't refer to courage, honesty or moral rectitude. You can say that the French value liberty and equality, that's part of what makes you feel that you belong to the French nation. You can say that Germans value hard work, it's been shown once and again and they're proud of it. Finally, you can say that Americans value democracy and the pursuit of happiness - again, that's been shown. Those are things a nation VALUES, and when you buy into being a part of that nation, you buy into those.

Do the French as a nation value bravery? Of course. Do they value honesty? Of course. Which nation doesn't? You cannot assign to an ENTIRE nation character traits that belong to individuals - bravery and courage or cowardice, honesty or corruption, etc.

Its unfair to single out France as being spineless alone. One must look at the continent of Europe and see that with the exception of Russia, Britian, and Poland, most of Europe was very pro-German, Pro Nazi. The French didnt collaborate anywhere near the levels that other countries in Europe, such as Lithuiania, Latvia, Finland, even the Ukraine, Hungary, ect......most people were for the most part supportive of Hitler. The French really werent, but felt they could do nothing to stop the Germans. This is not so much cowardice, mas it is a case of simply surrendering before the need to. The Polish, despite they were greatly outclassed by the Germans, still took them on with their less than adequate technology. perhaps the French saw what happened to the Polish, and decided discretion was the better part of valor. Its comparable to a woman who lies down and lets a rapist have his way, rather than fight and become covered in bruises and breaks. The French didnt roll over and let the Germans come marching because they were chicken, they did it because they did not want to end up totally devestated like Poland was. The Polish are admirable for their resistance in the face of overwhelming odds, even though they had no chance, their spirit and courage was admirable.
The French decided not to suffer such a fate, and figured that surrendering with little fight would at least preserve them for another day. They were a bit more rational.
But as far as nations that were quite supportive of Hitler and even collaborative, France doesnt really make my list. Countries who were very pro Hitler include Lithuiania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Romania, Hungary, and to a lesser extent, Spain, and an indirect neutral, supporting both sides, Sweden and Switzerland. The only countries really opposed to Hitler as a whole were Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belguim, and the Balkans. And of course, Britain and Russian. But those countries occupied by the Germans that opposed Hitler, such as Norway and Denmark and Holland, did not posses the military might to successfully oppose and fend off a German attack, and had to go underground.

So, its unfair to say the French were cowards. Maybe they were a little to quick to throw in the towel, but as far as being chickens, no.

Their national character traits/values are very definite - and not all pleasant.

But today Poland among others supports the coalition. Unlike France it is not a lying hypocrite. It does not insist that the UN plays the key role in Iraq and then proceed to break the UN sanctiions regime to line its grubby pocket.

It does not pretend to be morally outraged at the invasion of Iraq when it is really outraged because it was selling Saddam his weapons and is losing a cash cow.

ps - I am not implying literally ALL French people are cowards/corrupt. That would be ridiculous. I was saying that it was a character trait of that nation - among other traits - not all of which are bad.

And let's nail this one finally - FRANCE IS NOT A RACE. It is a nation of many races. Critcising the French may be many things (accurate mainly) but it is not "racism".

crossfire:

ps - I am not implying literally ALL French people are cowards/corrupt. That would be ridiculous. I was saying that it was a character trait of that nation - among other traits - not all of which are bad.

You ARE ridiculous. You're saying that cowardice is a character trait of the French, but that doesn't mean that you're calling them cowards? Just, what, cowardLY?

Well, it would appear to me that you share many traits with people who suffer from what's called "serious mental retardation". Please understand, I am not saying you are retarded, that would be ridiculous.

I am just saying that you share many personality traits with someone who IS mentally challenged, so don't take offense.


jako

Gosh - you have really gone out of your way to disprove my argument - backed up with FACTS btw.

And how did you do it?

You called me mentally retarded!

Henry Kissinger - time to retire - there is a far greater intellect in the house.

Hi People,

Just a gentle reminder here...

Debating/discussing a topic is all good, however personal attacks or racism will not be tolerated.

Keep it clean people.


Cheers,
ALIEN

Okay...I don't think people are fully understanding the call to keep it clean, instead are posting Anti-French jokes now...

Perhaps a few Warns might be in order...

Neither are Americans, Swedes or Moldovians - these are not races of people but nations of people. If someone wants to criticise the French IT IS NOT RACISM

I got a warning for a really weak joke about the French. The concept of free speech is becoming totally alien to this site. It is policed by hyper politically correct users who suffer from an extreme sensitivty disorder. When something is said that is slightly off their narrow, fasicistic view of the world then its report to moderators time.

Perhaps there should be a system where these socialist-fascists who patrol the site looking for posts to report get to censor all posts before they are sent?

Their kind of 21c America - fascist.

Crossfire, you owe a lot more to the French then you probably know. Without France, the United States of America wouldn't be here.

Wow - there was me thinking the US was formed from various global upheavals over millions of years - when in fact it was the French.

Wow - what else did they create? God? Food? Fire? Air?