It Is Time To Police The Internet.

reply to post by petrus4

However, there's a problem that perhaps you are not aware of; and that is the fact that some of the sickest people, and those who engage in the things which you revile the most, are actually the ones who hold the most power.

Yes, I was already aware of that, and have stated before that I am aware of the deep corruption within the realms of power.

But is every single one of them like that? Because if there is no one among them who will fight for what is right and good and just, how exactly will things ever be turned around ? Is a democratic vote the answer, or will that continue to be fixed as well.?

Where does your realistic hope in changing things lay? The tools of death and violence at this point are far greater than they ever have been in the past. It seems revolution and more demonstration is just another step towards martial law, and more chaos and bloodshed.

I sincerely ask you with the best of intentions what is your solution to stop serious crimes, at all levels of humanity?

reply to post by WhisperingWinds


I get rattled because of my freedom being infringed upon, and my liberty being eroded.

I am a business man. Today, if i have a trip to make, i have to drive it. It does not matter how far it is, i drive it. Why? Because, as a matter of principle, I will not fly until the TSA ceases sexually assaulting passengers before they can board the plane. Instead of hopping a flight to Houston and saving the 10 hours of driving on my truck, I have to plan out an extra day or two of travel time PLUS the additional cost of driving (it is cheaper to fly once you get to about a 10 hour drive). In December my truck had about 25k miles on it. Today I am sitting at about 55k.

I only use the above as an example of what I mean. Yes, there are criminals out there. But I am not a criminal, and I am sick to death of having more laws shoved down my throat, that cause me massive inconvenience, just because of the criminals.

Besides, why should I trust my government any more than a criminal? What good does "policing" the internet do when I need more protection from my government than any criminal?

I would rather have the internet left alone. We are freaking adults, you know? Why do i need a "mom and dad" to watch over everything I do?

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

We are freaking adults, you know? Why do i need a "mom and dad" to watch over everything I do?

You maybe an adult, who doesn't need mom and dad, but I think there are many adults who not only need a mom and dad to tell them what isn't acceptable, but a big brother to kick the message home .


Will policing the internet do that?

I don't know enough about the net and computers to know if it would, and if we can't trust the agencies that are doing the job now, looks like we're screwed any way we look at it, unless, we get a large group of people elected that start changing the systems from the ground up, and rid the governments and agencies of any corruption.

I want to believe there are good men and women out there who do care, and do work hard at getting the "adult"criminals to stop, as well as the ones who aren't quite adults yet.

This premise is a fallacy.
If we follow the op's logic, then our every move should be monitored, our purchases all tracked and compared to our incomes.
Wed have to have regular interviews under polygraph and god knows what else.

Freedom has a price, that price is sometimes making it easier for people to break the law.

Turning the net into a sort of panopticon will not stop crime, it will just stop freedom.

Originally posted by SprocketUK
This premise is a fallacy.
If we follow the op's logic, then our every move should be monitored, our purchases all tracked and compared to our incomes.
Wed have to have regular interviews under polygraph and god knows what else.

Freedom has a price, that price is sometimes making it easier for people to break the law.

Turning the net into a sort of panopticon will not stop crime, it will just stop freedom.

Isn't most of that done already?

Those who want the information already have it..and more if they want it..without the "new" laws.

reply to post by WhisperingWinds


If that is true, why criminalize people who use proxies etc?

No changes to or privacy laws ever make us safer, just more observed.

Lol! I think you'll find the internet is already policed! The issue is what is being done with the information...

reply to post by WhisperingWinds


I don't worry about criminals. Criminals go and do their own thing, and as long as they leave me alone all is well.

I have guns. So I protect all things digital, and insure those that I cannot fully protect. I take the responsibility to inform myself. Since I rely on my computer to do things securely, I don't use the excuse "i don't know much a bout computers" to justify creating more laws to account for my reluctance to learn.

The issue of increased policing is something I will not likely ever budge on. The simple reason is, the counterweight to policing is increased personal responsibility. I have a real thing for personal responsibility. I believe that we, as Americans, have ceded far too much responsibility for ourselves to our government. And this will sooner or later come back to bite us in the butt.

No. I don't want more laws. I don't want more police. I actually want far, far, far less. Like, 10% of what we have today.

I also want my countrymen to grow some stones, learn to use a gun, and begin protecting themselves. I believe with all my being that if we did this, people would be far less likely to be detached from one another, to victimize one another, and to be rude to one another.

Or we can keep giving responsibility of ourselves over to our government. We see throughout our history how well that works out, right?

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Let me be the first to star your post. I whole-heartedly agree with you. We are adults, and don't need Big business and the government sticking their fat nose in everything that we do. They are more destructive than any 14 year old Nigerian with a laptop could ever be.

Originally posted by WhisperingWinds
reply to post by petrus4

 

Where does your realistic hope in changing things lay?

Not in centralised authority, Whispering.

The things that you want, are things which the psychopaths have tried to teach all of us to want; because they are what they want; control for its' own sake. Such are not things which the non-psychopathic majority want.

The reason why you'll argue with me or BFFT when we say that you should look after yourself, rather than wanting the government to do it, is because we believe in our own ability to do that. You've been taught to believe that you can't do things for yourself, and so you need a central authority, government, or police to do them for you.

You should work on redeveloping your own sense of competence, and self-worth. If you do that, you will eventually grow to have faith in your own ability to protect yourself, and then you won't feel that you need someone else to do it for you.

I actually wrote a thread about this very topic, a while back.

If you're worried about computer security, as one example, you could go and download OpenBSD, which is an extremely secure computer operating system, and learn how to use it. Then you could create a scenario where nobody would be able to hack your machine; and if you wanted to help other people ensure that as well, you could teach them to do likewise.

That is how you can protect yourself, but I sense in your own case, you are concerned with the welfare of others as well, which is a positive thing. An important point to realise about crime is, that it tends to be a response to a given stimulus, like virtually any other action people take. I'm sure you yourself have observed, that normal, healthy people do not commit crimes.

So what we are going to need, on a societal level, is to remove the circumstances which motivate people to commit crimes. If there are no jobs, as one example, then one thing we could do, is begin to implement vertical farms within cities, which would not only feed the population, but would also provide employment, as they would need people to tend the plants. That is but one example.

I know you want to solve problems, and you have been taught that government exists to solve problems; but the problem is, that the people in government do not actually have any interest in seeing problems solved. They only want to deceive you into thinking that they do care, so that you will consent to being ruled by them.

Originally posted by SprocketUK
reply to post by WhisperingWinds

 

If that is true, why criminalize people who use proxies etc?

No changes to or privacy laws ever make us safer, just more observed.

I don't want to criminalize people who use proxies, just serious criminals who use proxies to get away with their crimes, and a serious enough fear be put into those who use them to cause havoc and strife in the lives of others, so that they will stop.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

I have guns. So I protect all things digital, and insure those that I cannot fully protect. I take the responsibility to inform myself. Since I rely on my computer to do things securely, I don't use the excuse "i don't know much a bout computers" to justify creating more laws to account for my reluctance to learn.

Some learn about this type of technology more than others, and even if you are informed , it won't stop some of the scenerios I mentioned before which may not be considered "serious" crime to some, but serious enough to reek emotional and psychological havoc in someones life.

So..how are you going to track down the creep who takes a pic of your grandkid being changed by mom at the public "spray pool" on a hot day, and uses all the proxies to put it out on the "dark net" for cheap thrills. How does your gun, and all the information you have security wise going to help that situation ? Heaven forbid one of the "voyeurs" of this garbage figures out where the kid goes with mom, and sets up a quick grab and run scenario with an accomplice who distracts your wife long enough for her to look away for 5 secs. Please tell me how your gun would help as you sit viewing pics of your grandkid being physically and sexually abused after a long hunt online for his whereabouts , on the net. How are you going to track him down ?

You act all superior because you have a gun, and knowledge of how to 'secure" your online activity , but someday we may very well see , guns being drawn for any reason, and 1000's killed instantly because of the chaos and disorder, of people "policing themselves" , and using a gun to do it.

People like you scare me a bit, thinking your gun and knowing how to use it will make the world a better place. People like you who blame victims of crime because they weren't vigilant enough, and didn't protect themselves at all moments every minute of the day.

I wish you and your loved ones the best BFFT , and pray they don't have to live in a world where carrying a gun and knowing how to use it , is the only reasonable means to security.

Originally posted by WhisperingWinds
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

I haven't seen any expression of superiority from BFFT, Whispering.

People like you scare me a bit, thinking your gun and knowing how to use it will make the world a better place.

How is it that you are able to be a user of this forum, Whispering, and not know about all of the reports of police brutality that constantly show up here? Are you really going to insist that we rely on those police as guarantors of our safety?

People like you who blame victims of crime because they weren't vigilant enough, and didn't protect themselves at all moments every minute of the day.

Victimhood and sovereignty are incompatible concepts.

reply to post by petrus4

The things that you want, are things which the psychopaths have tried to teach all of us to want; because they are what they want; control for its' own sake. Such are not things which the non-psychopathic majority want.

How sad that you would lump me in with psychopaths because I want to see their methods for getting away with offensive terrible crimes be limited? Thank you so much for generalizing it that way, and making it seems like I am part of the problem, when all I care about is serious crime being pursued more effectively and shut down.

You should work on redeveloping your own sense of competence, and self-worth. If you do that, you will eventually grow to have faith in your own ability to protect yourself, and then you won't feel that you need someone else to do it for you.

yeah right, come back and tell me that when you or a loved one has become a victim of a serious crime, that is ongoing, and very difficult to track or stop. lemme know how much your "self worth" and your ability to protect yourself helps. Another blame the potential victim mentality , and someday someone you care about may just well be a victim.

If you're worried about computer security, as one example, you could go and download OpenBSD, which is an extremely secure computer operating system, and learn how to use it. Then you could create a scenario where nobody would be able to hack your machine; and if you wanted to help other people ensure that as well, you could teach them to do likewise.

You just don't get it do you? You can be a victim of crime that is perpetuated and done through the net without even owning one . You can be a victim of credit card fraud , violation , sexual assault, home break ins, kidnapping , and many more . With the wrong people out there having the knowledge and access to information using the net, as well as using the net to continue to profit from their crimes.

So what we are going to need, on a societal level, is to remove the circumstances which motivate people to commit crimes. If there are no jobs, as one example, then one thing we could do, is begin to implement vertical farms within cities, which would not only feed the population, but would also provide employment, as they would need people to tend the plants. That is but one example.

farming to sustain your own food is not a new concept . Neither is the idea of creating multilevel green houses that would supply food for many , or jobs. You seem to NOT realize that many of the problems that humans have faced come back to human nature, which is still there even if all the centralized government control is taken away. Like who and how will they decide what is a fair wage ? How much do the owners make compared to the poor suckers who sweat their lives away actually growing the food.

Yes food co ops and grow ops would be a great thing, (and they already exist)but God forbid we should get too socialistic in regards to food and shelter for some minds out there.

Is that your only idea on how to change a failing and corrupt system? Hardly think it will even touch upon some of the problems you discussed within the government levels, and seems like it would just be another avenue for "slave labor" for the working poor, controlled by the ones can afford to build and operate it.

Oh wait..forgot about the new system of every man armed and out for themselves like BFFT thinks is the answer.. can hardly wait to see how that improves our society.

I'm done with this topic, for awhile, because no one seems to have any viable solutions to combat crime, and if you think making the poor work in some multilevel food farm in the inner city will cut back on Internet crime, or change corruption in government.. you're delusional .

I'm getting tired of the self righteousness of those, who can only point out the wrongs, but have no viable solutions to change , without realizing it will take some forms of government always to control and monitor the populations of humans.( at some points in history , it was royalty who did this, and to some extent, they still do in some places on this planet)

North Americans have great compared to others countries with no assistance programs, food banks, shelters , or basic medical assistance for those totally down and out.

reply to post by petrus4

How is it that you are able to be a user of this forum, Whispering, and not know about all of the reports of police brutality that constantly show up here? Are you really going to insist that we rely on those police as guarantors of our safety?

There are a lot of good cops out there , I've seen them, and they put up with a lot of shyt. They are humans and sometimes they break a little, and cross the line of good decision making. Yes some are not fit for the job, and are brutal , and some are corrupt..and they need to be removed for their positions just as there are those in the medical, legal,educational , religious and business sectors that need to be removed from their jobs.

But they are not ALL that way !!

Many many, work their asses off , trying to bring fairness and justice, and closure to crimes for many victims.
They are spat on, and despised for giving a shyt, all the while putting their lives in harms way for a measly wage , and tons of ingratitude.

I would feel a hell of a lot safer with many of the police out there today than I would with some of those who protest them at every turn, and feel if everyone just carried a gun,and learned about cyber security it would solve the problems.

reply to post by WhisperingWinds



Child porn circulated well before the internet. And there were voyeurs taking pics long before the internet. What you describe is a human issue, one that laws cannot overcome, especially now that technology is there. What you want can only happen, in todays day and age, if you choose to allow an Orwellian overlord to rule you.

One day we "may" see any thing. We may see chaos, we may not. But your use of the slippery slope fallacy does nothing to bolster your argument. I am not given to wringing my hands over what "may" happen. Instead I assess risk, and move forward accordingly. Intelligent movement, thoughtful response. It is the modus operandi of someone who holds personal accountability in high regard.

I don't blame victims of crime. But I also detest the term "victim" of a crime. WHy would someone accept that they are a "victim"? Screw that. I may have experiences, but I am no victim of them. They are part of why i am here, good or bad.

The only method real security is that which you afford yourself. Otherwise, you are at the whims of whoever you have entrusted. And, as we have seen all too often, they are mostly only good at failing. No, given how abusive police have shown themselves to be, I would rather take my chances with my Taurus Judge.

Originally posted by petrus4


Victimhood and sovereignty are incompatible concepts.

edit on 2-7-2012 by petrus4 because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-7-2012 by petrus4 because: (no reason given)

THIS. This is how I meant to say it.

When you take responsibility for your own self, you cannot be a victim. You can experience bad things, but you are never a victim.

Being a "victim" is for the weak of constitution. Those who find the safer harbors of tyranny preferrable over the choppy waters of freedom.

Originally posted by WhisperingWinds
reply to post by petrus4

 

yeah right, come back and tell me that when you or a loved one has become a victim of a serious crime, that is ongoing, and very difficult to track or stop. lemme know how much your "self worth" and your ability to protect yourself helps. Another blame the potential victim mentality , and someday someone you care about may just well be a victim.

Is that the source of your motivation here, Whispering? Has this happened to you?

With the wrong people out there having the knowledge and access to information using the net, as well as using the net to continue to profit from their crimes.

The problem, however, is that you think that having people in the government with access to the same information, would alone produce a better result. People in the government are just as human as anyone else; and are therefore just as likely to commit said crimes.

You seem to NOT realize that many of the problems that humans have faced come back to human nature

I do realise that. You're demonstrating a real paradox here, though. You're implying that you know about the frailty of human nature, and yet you still seem to advocate central authority, run by individuals with said frail nature, as an answer.

Is that your only idea on how to change a failing and corrupt system?

No, it isn't; I said it was one example.

I'm getting tired of the self righteousness of those, who can only point out the wrongs, but have no viable solutions to change , without realizing it will take some forms of government always to control and monitor the populations of humans.( at some points in history , it was royalty who did this, and to some extent, they still do in some places on this planet)

And as I've said before, Whispering; I am truly, and passionately looking forward to the day when people like you end up being herded into the FEMA camps, as sick as that might sound.

Why? Because you, and every other government apologist on this forum, keeps demonstrating, over and over and over again, that until it happens to you, you will continue to think that people like me and BFFT are delusional.

Until it's you who experiences having your front door kicked down, in order for you to be dragged away for "processing," to ultimately be gassed, you'll keep thinking that government is a wonderful thing. Until it's you who has been bashed while in custody, or wrongfully arrested, or had someone you love shot by a police officer, you will continue to defend and make excuses for the police.

You won't care about it happening to anyone else. Those are just "other," people. They don't matter. It hasn't happened to me or my family, yet; so I still love the government and the cops.

It will. It's coming. When it does, in those last few moments, as you are being dragged away at gunpoint, and you realise that one of those stacked coffins you've seen photos of on this site, is going to be your ultimate destination, you will reconsider your stance on the necessity of having government to "protect," you from all of the things which they themselves have told you to fear.

The only problem is, that by then, it will already be too late.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
I knew that few would agree with me on this thread I am not expecting the masses of ATS to rally to my call. I just think that it might make for interesting debate.

I ask those who disagree with me what they think should be done with the issues I have raised in this thread how should we prevent crime in the internet?

I am not talking about taking away freedom of speech on the internet, I am talking about policing the internet to take away the ability of criminals to use the internet for their evil deeds.

The answer has already been provided here. The internet is already "policed" enough.

The internet is a tool. You don't police a tool, you physically go after the person using it.

Your argument here doesn't make much sense IMO. It's like saying we should police a gun, or police a knife... these are just objects and tools in themselves.

for the love of god. When will it stop.

Safety, protection, security, for your own good......

you know who else acted in the name of those things.......the Nazis.

They were the safest dictatorship on earth.

No. People need information to flow freely now more than ever. The world has changed. Get with it or leave.