Unimaginable war machine

With all this talk of a major war brewing between the West and Russia, China, Iran, and Pakistan I decided to try to assess the general strength of the ground forces of these nations. It is really impossible to get a truly accurate number, and a large portion of the equipment is antiquated. However, a LOT of the equipment is modern. It is hard to determine actual numbers of divisions as some divisions look more like heavy brigades, while some independent brigades look more like small divisions. Additionally, some support units are organic, while others are put alongside divisions, but not counted as part of the division. I've left North Korea out of this estimation as I figure their forces so far removed from West Asia as to be of little consequence (not to mention they are not known to be a very good military). They could open an entire new front though, couldn't they.

The numbers are horrific. By my research (hurried and not claimed to be more than a rough estimation) these four countries can field 120 divisions, 20,000 tanks, 24,000 APCs and infantry fighting vehicles, something well over 7,000 self propelled artillery pieces, 15,000 towed artillery pieces, something over 3,500 helicopters, 4,000 self propelled SAMS, and over 1,800 MLRS systems. The combined elite infantry divisions number atleast 10.

In addition to this Russia is believed to have in mothballed, but redeployable (surely not all, some will be cannibalized to make others servicable): 22,000 tanks, 24,000 APCs and inf. fighting vehicles, 5,000 towed artillery, 2,500 self propelled artillery.

Assuming that much of this equipment is so obsolete or poorly maintained as to be unfieldable let us reduce those numbers by 50%, but include Russias mothballed equipment. We get 21,000 tanks, 24,000 APCs, 4,700 self propelled artillery, and 10,000 towed artillery.

The division count includes reserves so this number would take time to field. Remember that Russia and china have a robust conscription/draft system so that the number of soldiers can be doubled beyond the active and reserve counts just by increasing conscription and recalling recently released soldiers.

So the question must be asked how could the West ever defeat such a large force in west Asian region?

An incredible amount of cash has gone missing over the last 40 years. It may be that when this war breaks out we will find out where it went. And in blinding fashion. I do not believe that conventional weapons will win the war. I do not believe that nuclear weapons will be of much use either. I just have a feeling that it will be something very different.

Here is a picture of all those tanks you speak of..






As you can see they're no more than scrap yards of ex soviet hardware,

Id be very surprised if they could field 10.000 of them after cannibalising them to be battle ready, and even then they're no match for the Abram & Challenger 2 main battle tanks,

Challenger 2


Abram's


The one they managed to fix up would shortly become smoking armoured columns on the side of the road, as the West have absolute air superiority,

Can your girls beat these girls?

Yes those numbers are something to be reckoned with.
The russians being able to field 15-20million men under arms, china could muster 100+million men over the course of five years through drafts and current trained forces.
If India decided to side with china/russia add another 100+million men to that number.
With so many people lining up to take revenge against america, the entire middle east would broiling anti-americansentiment.
Saudi arabia, and Israel would have their hands full.

The numbers for the NATO alliance would be around half at best of what the East could field.
It makes me wonder if some EU countries have been deliberately failed by their governments, allowing cutbacks to the Armed forces, weakening any possibility of the ability to match properly, aggressive stances towards them.

I believe in some ways the conflict has already begun, it just hasn't reached the open declaration stage of a shooting war yet.

I am anti conflict of any kind, the fact that grown men and women cannot settle disputes without resorting to violence in this day and age, makes me facepalm everytime i think about it.
Mitt romney, a Israel sympathiser, rand paul an israel sympathiser, Obama, Israel sympathiser, and all the other jews in high office in the EU and the states, are going to take us all to the edge of total destruction.
The plan being to weaken all the countries of the world by getting us to fight each other, leaving the Jews as the strongest force afterwards to offer the solutions, and then another right turn is made as we all get taken further down the rabbit hole, with any chance of remembering what the truth is, and, how to get back to where we were gone for a very long time.

i was looking at this video and thought to myself...these are just the ones that look good in a parade.

The groups mentioned would have moved to power a long time ago if numbers meant anything at all."Quality over quantity" is the western catch phrase on this issue.Western forces train to kill at 10 to 1 odds as a measure of skill and strategy.So far all we need to do is see them first and they lose.We aren't too good at insurgecies or occupation as a military force. Also we don't know but about the of truth regarding the full capabilities we have.

reply to post by Erectus


We'll never see all out war again. The war these days is economic and environmental. All that equipment is for allaying civil unrest. The things countries can do to one another is so far beyond conventional warfare that this equipment is meaningless.

Doesn't matter how many men they have, we can just send the Chinese and Russians some blankets...blankets that have been soaked in airborne Ebola or some other highly contagious and deadly virus...problem solved. Yep we are evil like that.

reply to post by TritonTaranis


LOL. That looks like a bunch of junk. But, that doesn't mean they are useless, it just means they would take time to get into service and that many of them would never make it into service, serving instead as spare parts. In my count I tried to make allowances for useless junk.

Still, a 1960s tank can shoot and it has armor. I seem to remember the Tiger tanks were the Abrams of their day. The Shermans were T40s by comparison. Yet the Shermans managed to push the Tigers all the way back to Berlin.

This old gear is not of use on the front lines, but it can surely free up better stuff for front line duty. There is always behind the lines need of security forces, secondary fronts to be guarded, etc.

Originally posted by The X
Yes those numbers are something to be reckoned with.
The russians being able to field 15-20million men under arms, china could muster 100+million men over the course of five years through drafts and current trained forces.
If India decided to side with china/russia add another 100+million men to that number.
With so many people lining up to take revenge against america, the entire middle east would broiling anti-americansentiment.
Saudi arabia, and Israel would have their hands full.

The numbers for the NATO alliance would be around half at best of what the East could field.
It makes me wonder if some EU countries have been deliberately failed by their governments, allowing cutbacks to the Armed forces, weakening any possibility of the ability to match properly, aggressive stances towards them.

I believe in some ways the conflict has already begun, it just hasn't reached the open declaration stage of a shooting war yet.

I am anti conflict of any kind, the fact that grown men and women cannot settle disputes without resorting to violence in this day and age, makes me facepalm everytime i think about it.
Mitt romney, a Israel sympathiser, rand paul an israel sympathiser, Obama, Israel sympathiser, and all the other jews in high office in the EU and the states, are going to take us all to the edge of total destruction.
The plan being to weaken all the countries of the world by getting us to fight each other, leaving the Jews as the strongest force afterwards to offer the solutions, and then another right turn is made as we all get taken further down the rabbit hole, with any chance of remembering what the truth is, and, how to get back to where we were gone for a very long time.

There is alot you obviously don't know about India & China, there not exactly friends lets put it that way..

www.washingtonpost.com...

What'sthe bets, if there was ever a confrontation with China & The West, India would go grab some of its disputed land back from China and also bomb a few dams that are strangling its vital water resources?

Pretty dam good id say, after all its a rising power to

reply to post by Erectus


Because the U.S. alone has 10,000 very modern M1 Tanks that can easily destroy Russian tanks at will. I will say they would be better if they had Russians manning them but only Russia's very modern tank can compete. It is in such small numbers our A-10's would have a field day with them.

Air power would win the day as the U.S. and NATO have that down to a science. Control the air and the Western Army would roll over any eastern army quickly. Yes Russia makes some great fighters now a day but they don't have near enough of them or have combat experience to even compete.

The planes and gear we know about today are relics compared to what would be brought to the fight should we ever have to fight China or Russia. Not to mention our Navy would make it rain bombs on any of the two before our troops ever invaded.

reply to post by michaelbrux


Cannon fodder. Second line

Check this out OP.



And this

Here's a site that can tell you any country's firepower as well as their other assets that can be brought to bear. But I think your adding up these countries and assessing whether the "West" can beat them is really not feasible. They are not allies of each other and, indeed, have fought each other in the past. So I don't really think a numbers comparison by itself really works.

Secondly, just because they've got some assets doesn't mean the country is capable of fielding them at the right time and place. Thirdly, numbers does not equal quality. We've been talking about carriers in another thread. India has one carrier, the Vikramaditya, which is an older Russian carrier of about 40,000 tons displacement. The USS Nimitz, on the other hand is 100,000 tons displacement, of which we now have 11. We also have 9 smaller "Landing Helicopter Docks" which are about the same size as the Vikramaditya. Point is that just numbers don;t tell much.

I just don;t see a conventional land battle happening in that area of the world any time soon.

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge


its such a good parade...why would anyone want to make it cannon fodder.

i wouldn't want them to even get a grass stain on those crisp and clean uniforms.

Originally posted by Numbers33four
An incredible amount of cash has gone missing over the last 40 years. It may be that when this war breaks out we will find out where it went. And in blinding fashion. I do not believe that conventional weapons will win the war. I do not believe that nuclear weapons will be of much use either. I just have a feeling that it will be something very different.

Well if WWII is anything to go by we will likely see massive jumps in technological advancements with a few short years, it started firmly in propeller engines and ended up in the Jet Engine / Rocket Age and very possibly the Anti Gravity Age


Lets not forget that it was Wernher von Braun''s V2 rockets that was launched at London during WWII that took man to the moon, lets also not forget that still to this very day alot of the secret Nazi wonder weapons have yet to be declassified to this very day, or simply all traces of the technology disappeared, with project such as the Nazi bell project which was believed to have been an Anti Gravity research program

So i wouldn't be surprised should a major war happen we will see some of these new and improved programs be put in action,

www.youtube.com...

With A-10s 'WarHogs" just as it was designed to do. Opening rounds and the guys in the back of the armoured columns would see what a GAU-8 30mm Avenger cannon does to a T-72 and give up on the spot. Any sane person would, and for the ones that are not sane and decide to keep coming we have CBUs and Rockeyes.

Originally posted by schuyler
Here's a site that can tell you any country's firepower as well as their other assets that can be brought to bear. But I think your adding up these countries and assessing whether the "West" can beat them is really not feasible. They are not allies of each other and, indeed, have fought each other in the past. So I don't really think a numbers comparison by itself really works.

Secondly, just because they've got some assets doesn't mean the country is capable of fielding them at the right time and place. Thirdly, numbers does not equal quality. We've been talking about carriers in another thread. India has one carrier, the Vikramaditya, which is an older Russian carrier of about 40,000 tons displacement. The USS Nimitz, on the other hand is 100,000 tons displacement, of which we now have 11. We also have 9 smaller "Landing Helicopter Docks" which are about the same size as the Vikramaditya. Point is that just numbers don;t tell much.

I just don;t see a conventional land battle happening in that area of the world any time soon.

Anytime paper is used to assess strength a lot gets left out that matters a great deal. I know that numbers are not the end all be all of military mite. It does mean something, however. Even the older junk has usefulness away from the main front.

There is no question that the West has huge quality and technological superiority. Somewhere there is a point that that advantage is lost partly, or mostly, because of sheer quantity of enemy forces.

China and Russia may have been enemies in the past, but they have warmed up a little to one another as of late. The old saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Let us hope for no confrontation between the big dogs.

As for new and secret technology I fully believe we have it. I would expect that within a few hours of hostility that the only space assets left would be Western and that it would remain that way for the duration of the war. Chinas fearsome carrier killer ballistic missile will have a hard time targeting without eyes in the sky. Cyber war, weapons in space, unknown aircraft with unknown ability, and no telling what else would be in play.

reply to post by Erectus


damn right we have secret technology.

at least one person is going to be sitting atop the highest mountain on Earth tossing Thunderbolts at enemy forces.

bet you never thought Thunderbolts are real.