Creationists = Evolutionists

Somebody gave you book to read. They told you the book was true. Or maybe you found the book yourself. Or maybe a speaker in front of a room told you what he or she believed was true.

It made sense to you. It resonated. You looked for facts to prove it was true. Your belief strengthened.

So here's the question:

Why is it so important for you to "prove" you're right, and the "other side" is wrong?

Why try to force your "truth" on the rest of us????

Both are inconsequential to the larger picture, both are based in bias and aloof of any real historical analysis.

Evolutionary Theory is the best explanation we have for the diversity of life. It's regarded as the unifying theory of Biology. It allows us to progress scientifically while giving us answers about our existence.

Creationism, on the other hand, is not scientifically supported. It's backpedaling.

Originally posted by PieKeeper
Evolutionary Theory is the best explanation we have for the diversity of life. It's regarded as the unifying theory of Biology. It allows us to progress scientifically while giving us answers about our existence.

Creationism, on the other hand, is not scientifically supported. It's backpedaling.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Is it important for other people to believe the same thing that you do about the diversity and origin of life? Do you feel somebody who believes in creationism can't make scientific advances?

Is this why you feel the need to convince others to have the same view as you?

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1
Somebody gave you book to read. They told you the book was true. Or maybe you found the book yourself. Or maybe a speaker in front of a room told you what he or she believed was true.

It made sense to you. It resonated. You looked for facts to prove it was true. Your belief strengthened.

So here's the question:

Why is it so important for you to "prove" you're right, and the "other side" is wrong?

Why try to force your "truth" on the rest of us????

I think this same thing often. We have this thing called science, and another thing called history, and neither one add to the validity of this amazing book that so many people view as rock solid factual accounts of events. All it takes is more thinking than believing to realize much of it doesn't make sense.

There's your version, my version, and then there's the truth.

You can't force truth on people, they either see it or they don't.

Talking of creation though, I reckon its both, we evolved into some kind of mammal, then the aliens messed around with us, and then we evolved some more... Evolution *and* creation.

That was just an example by the way, they both go hand in hand I believe.

Science is a close to raw truth as it comes.

Originally posted by Sinny
There's your version, my version, and then there's the truth.

You can't force truth on people, they either see it or they don't.

No, you are talking about beliefs. There is not 'my version' of what actually happened, and 'your version' of what happened. There is only the facts of what really happened at any given point. The versions you are talking about are BELIEFS, not truths.

reply to post by UltimateSkeptic1

I think there may be a chemical trigger in the brain when something strikes us just the right way. suddenly we are vehement about a subject, excited, giddy.

I think people try to lecture us because it gives them a repeat high, a burst of whatever chemical they got when they first made their "discovery".

I know I feel a sort of high when I realize i've figured something out and that excites me every time I return to that subject. it's as if I own it.

I think we are created to some degree.
But we also evolved, they go hand in hand.

Creating something is essentially building something. Evolution is essentially building something also.

Just different ways of expressing it.

As an example, we are all creators. We have the tools to bring another living, breathing, human being onto this planet. It can also be seen as evolution from one place (sperm/egg) to another place (full grown fetus).

Or perhaps an apple seed. All the information required for that seed to grow into a full apple tree is contained in that little tiny seed. Information is the core of creation. Everything requires some sort of information in order to grow and evolve. the only probable solution to this is that there is some form of conciousness underneath all things, that give the information required to grow and evolve. .

I dont agree with trying to force one religion down other peoples throats. I have a few religious friends and we keep that topic off limits between ourselves because they know im not interested. And they also know that if they get me started i could start pulling their religious texts apart at the seams

reply to post by UltimateSkeptic1


if we were more primitive and in the "wild" and I found a certain berry or herb which improved our health, I would tell you. You could say "that's crazy, an herb can't improve your health!" and run away and not benefit from it, or you could say "maybe you're right, i'll look into it" and find that it helps you out.

not exactly the same, but I think it conveys the rough idea. if an evolutionist thinks that it will help improve life on earth if everybody "realized" evolution's role in our existence, why is it a bad thing if s/he spreads that knowledge? or if a creationist thinks that god's favor will improve life on earth, why should s/he ignore his/her natural urge to spread that knowledge?

sure, it's an imperfect system and sometimes leads to horrific results when somebody gets too wrapped up in "convincing" the other side. but the alternative is we all keep our mouths shut all the time? live and let live, but to a fault? where no ideas are spread? isn't the free and open exchange of knowledge and wisdom a good thing? don't let the ones who take the argument more seriously than the exchange of ideas ruin your willingness to debate those with seemingly "opposing" viewpoints to your own.

also, why does it have to be creationism VS evolution? one attempts to explain the entire origin and purpose of the universe and another tries to makes sense of biological diversity. they aren't really even related to each other if you think about it. where does that vehement disagreement come from?

i do wish that more people had the ability to just say "i really don't know, but i feel like this could be the case..." so that we could just exchange ideas instead of convincing each other of things.

unless you think that stardust forming new planets and a bird's species' feathers changing color are somehow related or the same, or that humans evolved FROM chimps and not that both evolved from some now extinct common ancestor. then, you're an idiot and wrong and i will chastise and berate you until you go away forever. but that's only in cases where im RIGHT. lol

Originally posted by SGTSECRET

No, you are talking about beliefs. There is not 'my version' of what actually happened, and 'your version' of what happened. There is only the facts of what really happened at any given point. The versions you are talking about are BELIEFS, not truths.

Yes, when it comes to facts, I agree.

I guess this is my point. The fossil record is a fact. The conclusions drawn from these records are perceptions, clearly not facts.

My curiosity comes from seeing so many people who are so vehement about proving their perceptions are better, or more "factual," than another person's. Evolutions do not know for a fact that there isn't a creator. Creationist don't know for a fact that we didn't evolve.

Yet both sides are dead set on convincing people they are correct.

Isn't this how religious wars start?

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1

It made sense to you. It resonated. You looked for facts to prove it was true. Your belief strengthened.

What FACT did the "other side" found?

Originally posted by AzureSky

As an example, we are all creators. We have the tools to bring another living, breathing, human being onto this planet. It can also be seen as evolution from one place (sperm/egg) to another place (full grown fetus).

Did you just say CREATION(from magical being) and REPRODUCTION is the same thing?

Originally posted by RicoMarston
reply to post by UltimateSkeptic1

 

but the alternative is we all keep our mouths shut all the time? live and let live, but to a fault? where no ideas are spread? isn't the free and open exchange of knowledge and wisdom a good thing?

i do wish that more people had the ability to just say "i really don't know, but i feel like this could be the case..." so that we could just exchange ideas instead of convincing each other of things.

Keep the belief your self would be the best idea, BUT, it stirs trouble when a belief without any proof get added to decision where everyone is affected, for example something like "our god says gays are abomination and should not be allowed in school" etc.

Science never say 100%, its always 99.99%, so science does have an open mind for changed and does have the slight "i really don't know, but i feel like this could be the case..." , the "other side" is adamant on not evolving from yrs old mind set.

reply to post by UltimateSkeptic1


Here's the difference. Evolution is backed by facts, while creation is not. No matter, how badly people want evolution to be a belief system, it is not. The experiments behind evolution have been peer reviewed and can be duplicated by anyone that has doubts. There is no such method of fact checking behind any creation hypothesis.

So we've already shown they aren't the same, now to go further. Most evolution supporters do not just blindly attack creationists, they correct their lies and misrepresentations of science. Creationists have started this war on science and evolution, based on pure emotional connection to a faith based belief system. They flat out reject anything that goes against their literalist beliefs.

It should also be Creationism vs abiogenesis, not evolution, because they are both fully compatible and I don't understand why people are so adamant about dismissing evolution, but aren't even willing to learn the basics of the theory or speak to scientist to clear up their questions. They just blindly bash it, for no apparent reason. This is why evolution supporters are so quick to shut them down. Knowledge is important, and those that reject it for no reason other than personal belief are the ones who cannot deny ignorance. It's not like people are debating the color of blue vs the color of red here. It's fact vs faith, and that debate is silly. It's like debating happiness vs oak trees. They aren't even related.

I think science and knowledge are vital keys to our civilization, and to the future of the human race. Rejecting science, simply because you don't like what it says, is detrimental to society. Sorry, I'm going to defend science, it's not about proving religion wrong or being right. It's about defending the very foundation society is built on today. Science is a legitimate method of fact gathering.

Isn't this how religious wars start?

Yes, and just like always, it's the religious that have started this war with their unjustified attack on science based on pure lies and misunderstandings. They shouldn't be annoyed because science and people who support it fight back with knowledge to defend it. It's a vital pillar in our society. Kill science, we go back to the dark ages. Kill religion(at least fundamentalist irrational religion), society is probably better off.

Extinction level events are not as uncommon as people think. Let science do its thing. It might possibly one day save us from one. Wouldn't that be worth it? We would overcome what many of our recent ancestors could not.

reply to post by UltimateSkeptic1

Why is it so important for you to "prove" you're right, and the "other side" is wrong?

For some religions, like Christianity. It's important because they are told they are the only ones with absolutes. Everything else is a deception. And everyone else outside of their truth is "eternally condemned". They are taught it is their responsibility to share the truth with a world full of condemned, but salvageable people.

Why try to force your "truth" on the rest of us????

Because most religions teach that it isn't THEIR truth. It is THE truth.

reply to post by luciddream


well, if we're talking about legislating religious beliefs then obviously we can't just take creationists or religious people at their word and start writing the bible into the US code of law. but if we're talking about an earnest discussion about creationism vs evolution, i think that you have to allow for the possibility that the "other side" is correct in order to produce valuable results.

i also disagree whole-heartedly with people who turn it into E vs C as i don't see how the two things are even directly related let alone opposed to each other.

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1
Why is it so important for you to "prove" you're right, and the "other side" is wrong?

Why try to force your "truth" on the rest of us????

It's not so much proving the other side to be wrong, as it is proving that they are using flawed reasoning. The Theory of Evolution is allowed to be challenged. It can be changed, and it can be proven wrong.

Creationism cannot. It is a belief system that must be believed as it is with no ifs, ands, or buts. Evolution is science, which can progress, while creationism is belief, which must always stay the same.

One requires thought and consideration while the other requires ignorance and rejection of evidence. It's that simple. I'm not trying to force anyone to accept it. But it's really sad to sit back and watch people wallow in ignorance.

reply to post by UltimateSkeptic1


When religious zealots stop trying to force creationist pseudo-science into the science classes then we can live and let be. Until then... it very much matters what people choose to believe, because some believers just aren't happy unless the laws are changed to fit their religious beliefs.

reply to post by UltimateSkeptic1


Theres a fine line between standing up for what you believe in and constantly seeking validation. I often wondered why people go to such great lengths prove something that they truely believe to be the absolute truth.
If your happy with what you accept then who cares what other people think. Maybe its a sign that your not sure or your insecure in your beliefs.

You never get anywhere anyways so im content believing what i believe and i dont even bother talking to those that believe different. The chances are were both wrong lol.

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1
Is it important for other people to believe the same thing that you do about the diversity and origin of life? Do you feel somebody who believes in creationism can't make scientific advances?

Is this why you feel the need to convince others to have the same view as you?

They can make advances, sure, but they won't have a viable explanation for diversity. We can use Evolutionary Theory to make predictions and use the information and knowledge to our advantage. Island Biogeography is a direct application of Evolutionary Theory. Understanding how insects become resistant to pesticides and how bacteria become resistant to antibiotics are direct applications of Evolutionary Theory.