NoC versus SoC issue. Let's set the facts straight, once and for all.

(9:45 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Langley Pilot Instructed to Identify Unknown Aircraft and Survey Pentagon; Doesn’t Realize a Plane Hit It.

This account perfectly fits in with what you can read already from what I posted about the Fairfax County Police helicopter pilot, who vividly recalled his encounter with an F-16 that very briefly flew beside him, then sped away out of sight again :

An F-16 launched from Langley Air Force Base is directed toward two unidentified aircraft and then asked to inspect and report on the damage to the Pentagon. Major Dean Eckmann, one of the three F-16 pilots who took off from Langley at 9:30 (see (9:25 a.m.-9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001), is reportedly flying in the Washington area. He will later recall, “I set up a combat air patrol with air traffic controllers,” and then, at around 9:45, “they come back to me and say there are a couple [of] unknowns heading north on the Potomac River toward the White House.” He is flying above 20,000 feet but heads straight down and reaches his target in “no time,” he says. The unknowns turn out to be a military helicopter and a law enforcement helicopter apparently heading towards the Pentagon to assist there. Eckmann flies over the Capitol and Mall area, he recalls, “to clear the area and make sure nothing else was coming in.”

This following text describes something what bothered me also already a long time, namely the exact time that the first fighter jet, an F-16, arrived in Pentagon airspace.
Better rephrased now : was SEEN in that airspace, in view of that "above 20,000 feet remark from Dean Eckmann.

An F-16 at more than 6 kilometer high, while busy flying CAP (combat air patrol), is nearly unnoticeable from the ground, where so much more activity attracted attention. That's why the first low passing F-16 was of course remembered by nearly everyone at the scene as THE first jet fighter at the Pentagon, which turns out to be untrue now. A CAP flying pilot is NOT going that low, then he looses CAP air space control, which will cost him a reprimand from his superior.

Dean Eckmann in his Langley F-16 took off there at 9:30, he reported the Fairfax County Police helicopter flying to the Pentagon area over the Potomac at around 9:45 already, so he really was the first F-16 above the Pentagon attack scene.

Which leads me back to all the online bickering with military flight professionals, who always said that jet fighters needed much more time to get armed and launched from the runway.
Thus, these three F-16's were launched initially at a much earlier time, to get on the runway and take off at 9:30.

Now my question :
What the hell did he do flying in the Washington area at shortly after 9:30, while AA 77 impacted at 9:38, when we all know that at that F-16's launch time nobody SEEMS to know yet of a incoming 757 on a ram course at prime targets in Washington DC.
That was said to be noticed only about 5 minutes before impact by the FAA who directly reported that via their White House Secret Service telephone line.

We should expect that those THREE jet fighters were launched in response to the New York events, and thus were directed towards New York, with full afterburners on.......

And if these three jets were in fact launched from the runway at 9:30, only 8 minutes before impact, based on very early reports from military MAIN radars who didn't need a transponder tag to see that it was an unidentified plane on a straight course to the White House, initially, then who can explain their uninterested behavior regarding that incoming threat in those long EIGHT MINUTES?

John Farmer, are these the 3 BOBCAT tags on your radar screen video?

I have kept asking why these three did not react on that radar trace coming in a straight line to the White House initially, only about 2 minutes before impact did they start to begin that tight loop around. While military command headquarters, keeping their eyes on their Main Radar screens, MUST have known about that steady flying incoming THREAT with no FAA transponder tag.

That loop has also always make me wonder why.
I know they were at a certain altitude, but any suicide pilot will know that a dive bomber attack on any prime target in the DC area would inflict the most shock and awe effect, so why did he not push his stick max forward, and used his tail and wings ailerons too, to steeply dive into the Capitol, White House, Pentagon, Capitol; take your shot.
The sky was clear, he could easily pick out the Mall area, with all the prime targets around there. Don't even mention the Pentagon, a maximum outlined BULLSEYE.
Why the lengthy and dangerous for last minute jet fighter intercept, long winded loop around?
Totally illogical.

But not IF all the NoC witnesses were NOT mistaken, and thus 9/11 was an inside job, and the remote controller of that plane knew he did not have to fear jet fighter interception, so he could steer that plane as meticulous as could be in the only place where he wanted it to impact, column 14 on the west wall, behind which all the accountants and comptrollers were sifting through the 6+ TRILLION dollars mess of unaccounted for, Pentagon expenditures.

And he knew that his comrades would take care of the only other thread to their existence, the ONI office spaces.
Have a look again on that loud out crying "BS!" casualties map from the ASCE report.
The Navy casualties were all in obviously closed and LOCKED doors spaces, they all died IN FRONT of those doors.
And their ONI office was not by far in the path of eventual airplane debris in a 42° to the normal on the west wall impact damage path.
But still, EVERYONE in that office was killed.!
By the impact, "they" say.

So why did they first ALL managed to get to the locked doors, and then died there?
Sarin gas? Electronically locked doors, national security, you know.....

The ONI was the only left-over threat to the planners, they had all the DEEP secrets of Amerika's families from 200 years in their main frames, who were just replaced and renewed in that just recently renovated new office space. HIGHLY SECURED office space, to say the least.

That's why the planners had to use such enormous measures to get rid of that huge threat to them.
And had to combine it with the WTC attacks, since they knew that the only backup of those mainframes and of the recent CEO's investigations were all stored in BUILDING SEVEN.
And some files and gold in WTC 6, and in the cellars of WTC 1 and 2.

We were framed, and we have seen with our own eyes where that lead to.
Immense sums of money disappeared in the pockets of bankers and their cronies, they even managed to get those stupid politicians to refund it back to them for a second time, they called that "saving the banks, because we can't let them fail".

They must have laughed their ..... off, all the way back to their banks.........HAHAHAHAHAHAAH, arghhhhhh.

Probably those politicians were not sooo stupid after all, both the Senate and the House are in session in the Capitol at the time around 9:38.
They definitely got the MESSAGE.....(we.can.get.you.any.time.we.want)

(Shortly After 9:55 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Park Police Helicopter Given Air Traffic Control Responsibility for Washington Airspace

What still amazes me, is the very long evacuation period of the Reagan Airport ATC tower.
It lasted untill the NEXT DAY late noon!
Never seen any sane reason for that. It's “normally the ‘nerve center’ for directing any response to this type of incident.”
As if the FAA was ordered to stay away from the action.
I also don't see any enormous amounts of smoke drifting around that tower after impact.
And they could have just shut off the air conditioning, when there really was such a massive amount of smoke sucked in. And ordered a helicopter down the tower to wash the smoke away. Can't imagine that smoke blew all day, night and next morning around that tower.
According to the two Fairfax pilots interviewed, Reagan Tower only came back up just after 15:55 late noon on 9/12 :
bluecollarrepublican.files.wordpress.com...

Page 25.
--Dan--
--snip--
--Dan-- We took -- well, actually, we took off from
Page 26.
the base at 1555 and returned back to the base at 1650, so just under an hour flight. The main mission is to photograph the Pentagon. So we -- I don't remember the specifics of the route of flight. We approached it cautiously. By then ATC was back in business, and they were super jumpy and super cautious. But we got our clearance to Washington Tower to proceed to the Pentagon. Photography was around the perimeter of the Pentagon.
--snip--

ATC was back in business on 9/12, so the next day, after 15:55...?
ATC = Air Traffic Control -- Washington Tower = Reagan International Airport Control Tower.

Airport Tower Being Evacuated - Eagle I has made three or four orbits around the Pentagon when a controller in the Reagan Airport tower radios its pilot, Sergeant Ronald Galey. The controller says the tower is currently evacuating. [US Naval Historical Center, 11/20/2001; National Park Service, 1/17/2002] According to some accounts, the tower is being evacuated due to reports of more hijacked aircraft heading in its direction (see (9:55 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [NBC 4, 9/11/2003; Spencer, 2008, pp. 215-216] But according to other accounts, the controller tells Galey the tower is evacuating because it is being affected by smoke that is drifting across from the burning Pentagon. [US Department of Health and Human Services, 7/2002, pp. A-48; McDonnell, 2004, pp. 21 pdf file; Goldberg et al., 2007, pp. 162] Galey will recall the controller saying: “Eagle I, we can’t see anything outside the tower. [The smoke is] getting in our ventilation system. We’re abandoning the tower.” Therefore, the controller gives Galey control of the airspace for the entire Washington area, telling him, “You’ve got the airspace.” [US Naval Historical Center, 11/20/2001; McDonnell, 2004, pp. 21 pdf file]
Pilot Alarmed at Being Given Control of Airspace - The control tower at Reagan Airport is “normally the ‘nerve center’ for directing any response to this type of incident,” according to a National Park Service news article. [National Park Service, 9/21/2002] Galey is initially alarmed. He will recall thinking, “Exactly what I need right now is I’ve got control of the airspace.” [US Naval Historical Center, 11/20/2001] However, he is unaware that the FAA has ordered that all airborne aircraft must land at the nearest airport (see (9:45 a.m.) September 11, 2001), which will make his task easier. [US Congress. House. Committee On Transportation And Infrastructure, 9/21/2001; McDonnell, 2004, pp. 21 pdf file; 9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 29]
NORAD Advises Pilot on Controlling Airspace - The controller gives Galey the radio frequency for NORAD, and tells him to contact NORAD. [National Park Service, 1/17/2002; McDonnell, 2004, pp. 21-22 pdf file] The person Galey then talks to at NORAD informs him: “Look, you have no [air] traffic in DC, except for the traffic that you’re calling. The aircraft that you’re calling in, we’re going to allow to come in. Other than that, there should be no one besides the military, and we’ll call you out the military traffic.” Galey will later reflect: “So that helped tremendously. That function alone was not very taxing.” [US Naval Historical Center, 11/20/2001] The person at NORAD also tells Galey there is “an unauthorized aircraft inbound from the Pennsylvania area, with the estimated time of arrival approximately 20 minutes into DC.” Galey will recall that he and the rest of his crew discuss what they should do, and decide that “we’d take our chances and stay there [at the Pentagon], and do what we came there to do.” [National Park Service, 1/17/2002]
Airspace Control Passed on to Metropolitan Police Helicopter - Eagle I becomes “the air traffic control function for the area, flying a slow racetrack pattern over the site and clearing aircraft in and out,” according to Lieutenant Philip Cholak, the Park Police Aviation Unit commander. [Aviation International News, 10/1/2001] But after a time Galey asks his paramedic to request that a Metropolitan Police helicopter be launched to take over the command and control of the Washington airspace. He tells the paramedic: “You know we’re going to have to do a medevac mission here. We’re going to have to relinquish the command/control function to somebody else.” A Metropolitan Police helicopter subsequently arrives and relieves Eagle I of its command and control function. [US Naval Historical Center, 11/20/2001; McDonnell, 2004, pp. 22 pdf file]
Entity Tags: Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia, United States Park Police, Philip W. Cholak, Ronald A. Galey, Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, North American Aerospace Defense Command
Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline

The "two Fairfax County Police helicopter pilots interview" states clearly that they were dispatched by their commander some time later after AA 77 impacted, at first he kept them grounded. And then they got their orders from Condor, a DC Police helicopter hovering around, and also on the ground at times. They were dispatching all incoming allowed aircraft since the ATC tower at Reagan Airport was deserted because smoke got in their air systems......until the next day........Why?

(10:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Maryland Police Say They Cannot Send Helicopters to Pentagon, but Other Units Provide Helicopters.

Other Departments Send Helicopters - Galey then contacts MedStar at the Washington Hospital Center and AirCare at Inova Fairfax Hospital in Virginia. Each of them dispatches helicopters to the Pentagon. Galey will recall that these two departments “hadn’t gotten the word that the airspace was shut down, and since I’m the one who requested the aircraft and informed NORAD, NORAD allowed them to come in.” [Rotor and Wing, 11/2001; US Naval Historical Center, 11/20/2001] It is unclear exactly when Galey contacts the different departments. But according to the Arlington County After-Action Report, the helicopter that MedStar launches arrives at the Pentagon at around 10:18 a.m. Inova Fairfax Hospital launches one helicopter at “approximately 10:00 a.m.” and then sends a second helicopter to the Pentagon at around 10:40 a.m. [US Department of Health and Human Services, 7/2002, pp. A-45]
Entity Tags: MedStar Health, Ronald A. Galey, Maryland State Police, United States Park Police, AirCare
Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline.

Dan, the pilot from the interview, said he saw those two helicopters send by Inova Fairfax Hospital and the MedStar helicopter already parked there in front of the Pentagon, and their Fairfax County Police helicopter, which was also fully equipped for medevac flights, essentially had lots of space to land and park. So he landed in that grassy field in front of, and sloping down to the Pike, where that road starts to go under the Route 27 overpass.
Essentially in one of these cloverleaf grassy areas. The one right behind the south side of the CITGO, it's quite a big area.

Btw, on page 10 of the two pilots interview, at the bottom, he talks about his encounter with that F-16 pilot, that came down from above 20,000 feet (6 KM) to inspect him and the other military helicopter flying over the southern Potomac area. That was Dean Eckmann in his Langley based F-16, who flew already that early a CAP to secure the area.
bluecollarrepublican.files.wordpress.com... Page 10+11

On a side-note, this shows to anyone interested, that I do not agree with the PfT and CIT fly-over theory :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
There are two pictures in my page 23 post, that explains it better :







Found my post back on the next page 24, with this HOV -lane aerial view photo, taken from a helicopter on 9/11, with all the exit signs in it :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's text shows even better why I find the fly-over theory an impossible one.

1. The first green Exit sign is screwed on the far right side of that huge traffic signs board and its text can be seen in the far right bottom side of this picture :
"Pentagon Mall and River Entrances Exit 1/4 mile"

2. The second green Exit sign is about 1x1 meter and can be seen standing where the exit lane to the Pike and South Parking turns right. It's besides the white text "north bound traffic".
It is clearly standing on a virtual line "alongside the Pentagon". And that's what Vin said where he stood.

--[If anybody can show me evidence that Vin Narayanan stood THERE, and show evidence that Christine Peterson meant with her words : "I stood in front of the Heli Pad" that she also stood somewhere there, and thus could meant her directive as seen from THERE, then I will be a Newborn Pentagon Attack Debunker.]--
I gave you three recent contact forms for Vin Narayanan.
Phone or mail him, or post to his Facebook page.
Christine Peterson can easily be reached via her Alumni page at NAU, Northern Arizona University.

3. The third little green Exit sign stands on its 2.5 meter high pole, just a few meters in front of the first of the "two trees" in front of the Heli Pad. It is not visible in this picture, but I showed you another picture already in this thread where you see a man with a dark color face sitting in a dark green Pick Up in front of that clearly visible third Exit sign on a 2.5 meter high pole. Which can not be "clipped" like he said, without first clipping the 40 feet (12 meter) high light poles also standing there in front of the Heli Pad region. And they were not clipped on 9/11.

i14.photobucket.com...


Below is another aerial map posted by Craig Ranke, that shows the SoC path. When you have viewed the CIT CITGO witnesses interviews, you know that the NoC path must pass over that dirt mound just right of that half of Route 27 spanning traffic signs board, and that fits the 4 ANC workers testimonies, and lo and behold, also the officially released NTSB animation.

Vin Narayanan said he stood beside the exit sign, and that half VDOT traffic board has an exit sign for Columbia Pike on it. Vin could have stood beside it in the HOV lane going north, about where you see that tiny car in the black lane beside the grey HOV lane in that picture below (see my extra NoC witnesses lists in my page 4 of my PfT thread) :




I am still searching my hard disks for those two high resolution photos of the Fairfax County Police helicopter parked on the grass of a cloverleaf section behind the southeast side of the CITGO gas station. The pilot is standing to the left of his helicopter and you see the smoking Pentagon west wall in the background.
I am also quite sure I posted them in a post where I showed my photos of the transformer pole and the telephone lines crossing over the Pike, just north of the CITGO its northern canopy roof. I posted that because Penny or Christine said that she saw the plane clipping power and/or telephone lines on the Pike, while coming straight at her.

In this new picture, I added 4 possible positions for Vin Narayanan's car (yellow squares), when the plane flew over him, as he said. The exit signs are my smaller, green squares.
Vin1, Vin2, Vin2a and Vin3.
EDIT: I placed the green square for position 2a erratically at the left side of the 1/2 Route 27 spanning traffic signs board, that must be placed on the far right side, where the actual Exit sign for Columbia Pike and South Parking hung.!. ENDEDIT

1. Position Vin1 is under the full Route 27 spanning traffic signs board, 50 meters in front of the Pike overpass bridge. Vin would possibly look at a SoC plane coming from the south-southwest.
How that plane's right wing could clip an exit sign on that board, your guess as good as mine.

2. Position Vin2 is beside the 1x1 meter Exit sign, beside the curling down exit lane to the Pike and to its underpass. Vin would possibly look at a SoC plane coming from behind him, the south-southwest.
He could however also have been looking at a NoC plane coming from the southwest, with its right wing tip over his car, and its left wing tip clipping an exit sign on that south going lanes spanning traffic signs board.

2a. Position Vin2a is beside the Traffic Signs Board that spans over 1/2 of Route 27 its south going lanes. And has an Exit sign on it on its far right side. Thus also far right for an eventual looking-back Vin, sitting in his car and watching an approaching plane from the southwest.
The plane would have flown with its fuselage somewhere over that south lanes board in that case. A small chance of him describing the SoC plane.

3. Position Vin3 is just in front of the small Exit sign on a 2.5 meter high pole, beside the north going lane where the exit lane to the Mall and River Entrances begins, just in front of the first tree of the two trees growing in front of the Heli Pad.
Vin would look at a NoC plane coming from the southwest. No chance of him describing the SoC plane.

Originally posted by 911files

Originally posted by waypastvne
Yellow line is the starboard engine track ?

You did notice that it does go right through that tree.

Oh my, isn't that the VSP/VDOT antenna that the Paik brothers said had a bent antenna? Looks like one of the wings go right over the top of it. You don't reckon .... ? Nah, we all know that didn't happen. But seeing as how that is what both Paik brothers thought did happen, then Edward must have thought he saw the plane pass right over it or else why would he believe it hit the antenna?

Isn't it cool how things just fit together when you don't try to force them into something else?

I just recalled, that path matches pretty much with this one that the Fairfax County Police helicopter flew the next day (might have been that afternoon, I forget and don't feel like reading his statement again) based on the Reagan National ASR track and eyewitness accounts.

Image taken by FCPD pilot as he retraced the flight path and given by him to the Army Center for Military History.

How about that!

edit on 19-6-2012 by 911files because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-6-2012 by 911files because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-6-2012 by 911files because: (no reason given)

How about that is not an "Image taken by FCPD pilot as he retraced the flight path and given by him to the Army Center for Military History".
It is an image taken by him the next day..!
South Parking is full again, its shadows indicate late afternoon, he flew that second photo-op between 15:55 and 16:05 on 12 September 2001.

He retraced the flight path of AA77 on 11 September 2001, when he flew the supposed flight path as indicated to him by the FAA officials on board with him, beginning over that little office building 0.99 mile away from the impact point. And he explicitly said that he flew over the Annex and over the gas station when he retraced that flight path together with the FAA officials.

Which is, as you realize, a damn strong pointer to a NoC flight path.

Do you agree with my text that I corrected for you?

Btw, Reheat, that FCPD helicopter is standing 50 meters away from that Pike underpass, on the grass of the cloverleaf. With a row of people and blueish supplies in front of it. Just behind that fresh dirt mound leading to the CITGO.
EDIT: I see 7 helicopters parked on the cloverleaf grassy areas, and three of them just behind the CITGO. It's that one, the FCPD heli. Dark blue with stripes diagonally, white top.
Two of them, just behind those two bulky trees.

So, forget the other one in the cloverleaf to the right.

By the way, this is a photo posted by waypastvne, in which you can see the white tour bus parked nearly under the Pike underpass.
That Fairfax County Police helicopter stood just 100 meters to the left of that photo's left bottom corner rim in the grass behind the CITGO.

Its pilot talked about those tour buses in his interview with the Navy Historical Unit.
His helicopter stood on that same grass which is sloping down to the Pike, but straight east from the CITGO gas station.
In that photo in my above post, just behind the CITGO, the dark-blue bottom plus white top, painted one.




I think, waypastvne, that you have the Fairfax County Police helicopter photos thus also within your reach, since your above posted photo has been shot by the same photographer who took two shots of the Fairfax helicopter, just before this shot.
They are just as high resolution as the above one.

On a side note, you posted the Government Exhibit photo taken from that helicopter that I also used above, in this quoted post of yours, its the first photo in Bilk22 his quoted text :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Short description of 12 long LaBTop-bashing pages :

It looks as if the FDR recovered from the wreckage of AA 77 in the Pentagon, as told by the FBI and that is handed over by the NTSB after years long FOIA procedures, does describe at least exactly the ascend from Dulles from Gate D26, which is its normal departure gate.
It seems also that the last 35 seconds of that FDR, before impact at column 14 of the Pentagon's west wall, do fit the official explanations of that flight path. Namely a SoC flying plane.
If this is all true, the NoC theory is automatically mute.

HOWEVER, if all the witnesses that swear they saw a North of CITGO gas station flying B757, are not mistaken, in that case, the whole FDR is of course falsified.

I am now trying to get assistance from my readers, to unearth evidence from a few important Route 27 witnesses about the exact spot on Route 27 where they were situated when the plane flew over Route 27, or in front of them.
Their registered words in the last 11 years are still prone to very different explanations.

And you know what?
I do not think that the title of this thread will ever become true, since I have amassed so many adversaries in both camps of the 9/11 debate, that I do not have my hopes high that ANYBODY will ever really try to contact Christine Peterson, Penny Elgas or Vin Narayanan.

There are namely only two outcomes of a true new phone or Email interview with these three witnesses.

1. They explicitly tell us that they stood under a SoC flying plane.
In that case, all Fly-over, No-Planers and assorted other illogical reasoning persons will not want to help out.
It would shatter their whole 9/11 discussing-period's growing (but wrong) conviction matrix.

2. They explicitly tell us that they stood under a NoC flying plane.
In that case, all JREF'ers, Debunkers, Official Story Clampers, and a lot of other assorted patriots and military career persons will definitely not want to help out.
It would shatter their whole lifetime (but wrong) conviction matrix.

My only hope is another soul like me, only interested in the historical truth.
They are thinly sowed on any 9/11 forum board, or 9/11 blog pages.

How do you ask these three people to give solid evidence of their real positions on Route 27 on 9/11 ?
Ask them first what type of car they drove.
Then send them my above photos, and ask them to draw their real position in. Better send them a Google Earth map enhance, without any text or flight path in it, so you do not influence them in any way.
Do however use a 7/9/2001 historical GE map, and be sure to show all these Traffic board signs on that stretch of Route 27 that you cut out from the I-395 underpass, up to the north wall-side of the Pentagon.
And if you want to add some more juice to the cake, send them my enhance of the Steve Riskus photo from my earlier posts.

And ask them if they recognize themselves and their cars, in that photo, or in any other Steve Riskus photo.
All Riskus photos at his still functional website are here, the second one is I believe the one with those three people in :
www.criticalthrash.com...

John Farmer (911files), some more evidence of your "ghost" helicopter :

911research.wtc7.net...

Helicopter

Lincoln Leibner --
He said that he saw a helicopter circle the building. He said it appeared to be a U.S. military helicopter, and that it disappeared behind the building where the helicopter landing zone is - excuse me - and he then saw fireball go into the sky. [...] It's a very tense situation obviously, but initial reports from witnesses indicate that there was in fact a helicopter circling the building, contrary to what the AP reported, according to the witnesses I've spoken to anyway, and that this helicopter disappeared behind the building, and that there was then an explosion.

Lincoln Leibner --
the aircraft struck a helicopter on the helipad, setting fire to a fire truck.

Paul Begala --
He said another witness told him a helicopter exploded.

Skarlet --
As I came up along the Pentagon I saw helicopters. That's not strange. It's the Pentagon. Then I saw the plane. There were only a few cars on the road, we all stopped. I know I wanted to believe that plane was making a low descent into National Airport, but it was nearly on the road. And it was headed straight for the building. It made no sense. The pilot didn't seem to be planning to pull up anytime soon. It was there. A huge jet. *
* CORRECTION: Before Site Version 1.055, this page contained a shorter and garbled excerpt from Skarlet's account in the Helicopter section. Because the excerpt was taken out of context, it incorrectly implied that Skarlet reported seeing a helicopter rather than a jetliner hit the Pentagon. In fact Skarlet's full account is quite emphatic that a "huge jet" flew into the Pentagon, and is consistent with all the other eyewitness accounts.

911research.wtc7.net...

Right Wing Hits Generator

Lee Walker Evey --
On its way in, the wing clipped. Our guess is an engine clipped a generator. We had an emergency temporary generator to provide life-safety emergency electrical power, should the power go off in the building. The wing actually clipped that generator, and portions of it broke off.

Frank Probst -- on a sidewalk alongside Route 27, near the Pentagon's western face
He recalls the engine passing on one side of him, about six feet away. The plane's right wing went through a generator trailer "like butter," Probst said. The starboard engine hit a low cement wall and blew apart.

Flaps Up

Lee Walker Evey --
The plane approached the Pentagon about six feet off the ground, clipping a light pole, a car antenna, a construction trailer and an emergency generator before slicing into the building, said Lee Evey, the manager of the Pentagon's ongoing billion-dollar renovation.

The problem with Lee, he did not see the plane at all, later he explained he heard it from a co-worker, and constructed this short description from it.

Frank Probst was walking on that whitish path along the guard-rails beside Route 27, and was already very near the Two Trees, and in front of the Heli Pad. Ask him yourself, if you doubt me.
And he did not say that the wing went through a generator trailer, in the ASCE report he told that the right wing tip cut through the generator trailer roof.

Originally posted by LaBTopHow about that is not an "Image taken by FCPD pilot as he retraced the flight path and given by him to the Army Center for Military History".
It is an image taken by him the next day..!

How about exactly what I said ...

I just recalled, that path matches pretty much with this one [photograph] that the Fairfax County Police helicopter flew the next day ....

I lost respect for you several days ago. I had thought you were sincerely trying to understand what happened. Yet over and over again you twist and spin statements to fit your agenda (whatever that is). You do all of this "deducing" from fragmentary evidence, and come up with crazy. I've learned over the past week or so that there is no interest in truth here at ATS, just crazy and fantasy. Good luck with that.

Originally posted by LaBTop


John, does it not strike you as extremely strange, that the FBI within MINUTES of the impact, confiscated ALL these video feeds of cameras possibly able to register that plane?

That is not a clever FBI director directly reacting after being informed of the impact.
You know that these kinds of operations normally take weeks of planning, to get the right men to the right places.
Bear with me : EIGHTY FIVE camera feeds, from which a great part were confiscated within minutes of impact?

We can be credulous, but not stupid, do not underestimate the growing anger under the populace, we can see what they did, do and still plan.
Immense amounts of money disappeared and are disappearing while we type.
And they plan to rise the energy prizes globally, to unknown heights.

Did you bother to look at the receipt? The Citgo video and hard drive were confiscated on September 12th. Not within "minutes" of impact.

I believe you should take Reheat's advice and find a better hobby. The nice weather is here. Try bird watching or start a nice butterfly collection.

reply to post by 911files


Considering these last two days of walls of bull# spam, I am not replying to him any more either. Just let him post and when he gets little or no replies maybe he'll realize no one reads his claptrap, let alone takes any of it seriously.

Oh, I'll likely ridicule or insult him occasionally, but he need to be ostracized, so he will find something else to do.. I just don't have the patience or tolerance to try to make sense of it any more. Enough!

Originally posted by Six Sigma
I believe you should take Reheat's advice and find a better hobby. The nice weather is here. Try bird watching or start a nice butterfly collection.

I was going to suggest playing with a large set of legos in the middle of a busy street somewhere, but that's likely against the rules, so I won't suggest that. Perhaps we could chip in and buy him a bigger dog so it would eat more of his homework every night!

Originally posted by 911files

Originally posted by LaBTopHow about that is not an "Image taken by FCPD pilot as he retraced the flight path and given by him to the Army Center for Military History".
It is an image taken by him the next day..!

How about exactly what I said ...

I just recalled, that path matches pretty much with this one [photograph] that the Fairfax County Police helicopter flew the next day ....

I lost respect for you several days ago. I had thought you were sincerely trying to understand what happened. Yet over and over again you twist and spin statements to fit your agenda (whatever that is). You do all of this "deducing" from fragmentary evidence, and come up with crazy. I've learned over the past week or so that there is no interest in truth here at ATS, just crazy and fantasy. Good luck with that.

John, it would have been honest to show all what you wrote and in what sequence.

Your last sentence was clearly meant to pounce home the feeling in the minds of those readers you want to convince about your side of the story, that that pilot (Dan) flew ON THE DAY OF 9/11, a SoC flight path.
That is totally UNTRUE. He himself explained that he flew a clear NoC reconstruction flight path taken by AA 77 on 9/11, over the Annex and over the CITGO, and then the interviewer did not say more than "HM.hmmmm" as a reaction on those words. Note that he of course knew already in 2012 what the government wanted as a result of his interrogation of these two pilots; the two had to strengthen the official, SoC story. They did not, and the History Unit interviewer did not dare to ask any more specific questions regarding this for him quite shocking NoC explanation.
A real neutral person would have probed further and asked for much more details, he DID NOT do that at all. Why did he not ask the pilots to show that so important little office building on a map and find coordinates for it?
The whole typed out interview shows a careful redacting of the facts, he made it as uncomprehensible as he dared to do, so later readers would not directly see the discrepancy with the official explanation.

You based your story on a photo taken the next afternoon, on 9/12, and which could not have been a screenshot from the video made by those FAA officials in that FCPD helicopter at that one day earlier flight on 9/11, and which flight path was based on a totally different assumption, namely that one of these officials had talked to a witness on the ground who told him that the plane came in from over a small office building a bit less than a mile from the impact point.
And Dan, one of the pilots on that 9/11 video shoot flight, explained in that interview you yourself posted here, and which I took the time (hours) to type out for you, that he flew from that small office building over the Annex and even over the CITGO gas station to the point of impact in a straight line, so these FAA officials could reconstruct that flight path taken by the attack plane based on that witness who saw the plane pass over that little office building.

He even said that they landed their helicopter behind the CITGO gas station on the grass there. Exactly where you see those same two FCPD helicopters standing in your own photo posted by you.
The two dark-blue underside and white top helicopters. With some thin diagonally painted dark-blue stripes above the dark underside. And in the big detailed picture of those helicopters, which I am busy finding, with the County name painted on them.

You have three times edited your text, and couldn't bring yourself to do the right thing and place that new piece of text under that last sentence, you had to put it up above that photo, otherwise your whole "How about that" would have lost its intended impact on the readers.

Please note your own, quoted and underlined by me, words :

Isn't it cool how things just fit together when you don't try to force them into something else?

I just recalled, that path matches pretty much with this one that the Fairfax County Police helicopter flew the next day (might have been that afternoon, I forget and don't feel like reading his statement again) based on the Reagan National ASR track and eyewitness accounts.

(Here is your photo of a SoC officially endorsed flight path, over the high VDOT radio mast.)

Image taken by FCPD pilot as he retraced the flight path and given by him to the Army Center for Military History.

How about that!

edit on 19-6-2012 by 911files because: (no reason given)
edit on 19-6-2012 by 911files because: (no reason given)
edit on 19-6-2012 by 911files because: (no reason given)

Your other, bolded by me, text line about the Reagan National ASR track, is an extra addition that is NOT to be found in that FCPD pilots interview, as a description of the reason why he, Dan, flew another photo-op the next afternoon.
In fact, his interview text lines indicate a sudden uncomfortable feeling, since he realized that he was talking about an officially endorsed by the FBI, and other officials in the usual line of flight-approval, new photo shoot flight. And his words express that he wasn't so sure if he was allowed to talk about that :

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is my typed out interview text. Don't be so lazy, don't try to avoid my arguments, go read what I typed out for you, a page back. Or read your own linked to Navy Historical Unit full interview text.
Which you thought strengthened your arguments. And that's why you posted it.
But lo and behold, it did not, in fact it UNDERMINED your arguments and that's why you are now uncomfortable with it.

The Control tower at Reagan National was abandoned because smoke got in their air-conditioning systems.......
I still find that a highly suspicious reason.
Why were these FAA officials send out of their tower, the one place that could coordinate all the rescue efforts around the Pentagon. For a bit of smoke...?
All these rescue workers in the Pentagon at that same time did not care about MUCH more smoke in their lungs, while trying to bring survivors outside.
We have by the way photos from that guy on the other side of the Potomac, where you can see that the smoke billowed UP and did not go anywhere near the Reagan National tower.
So, this smoke excuse sounds like a quick lie to cover-up something curious. That all FAA personnel was ordered out.

Did someone in the know,needed an empty tower, to falsify the records?
REMEMBER, if all the NoC witnesses are not mistaken, the whole day of 9/11 and the days before and the years after, were all one big black operation.

And Reagan Tower did not come back and up again until after 15:55 on the next day, as Dan explained. So, how could Dan have flown the next day at 15:55, an ASR track received from that Tower? That tower was all that time abandoned.....

I lost respect for you several days ago. I had thought you were sincerely trying to understand what happened. Yet over and over again you twist and spin statements to fit your agenda (whatever that is). You do all of this "deducing" from fragmentary evidence, and come up with crazy. I've learned over the past week or so that there is no interest in truth here at ATS, just crazy and fantasy. Good luck with that.

So, do give some argumentation, that the two helicopter pilot witnesses from your own posted Navy Historical Unit interview link are not a NoC flight path describing, the one they flew as their first photo-op flight on 9/11, with some FAA officials on board. They said they flew OVER THE ANNEX to reconstruct AA 77's flight path.

So you missed all my explanations in my above posts about Vin Narayanan's car position?
What about my text do you not understand?

I clearly stated that when you or whomever can show me that he stood near Exit sign 1 or 2, and that Christine Peterson stood not in front of the Heli Pad but diagonally "in front" of the Heli Pad, at the same 1x1 meter Exit sign 2, thus clearly UNDER A SoC FLIGHT PATH, then I will turn into a new born 9/11 conspiracy debunker.

Because then the two Pentagon Police officers at the CITGO must have been mistaken, or for some reason plain out lie.

If he however stood beside that Exit sign 2a or Exit sign 3, he is a NoC witness. And I will remain a pain in the butt for all you illogical thinkers. And the NoC witnesses were then not mistaken or plain out lying.

And I've learned from your last post that there is no interest in REAL truth at JREF, just patriotic drumming and faithful cramping onto the official Pentagon flight path. Good luck with that.

I have still quite some heavy doubts about the sincerity of that official Pentagon story.
Even more about the whole 9/11 officially endorsed stories.

Especially since I am doing some precise measuring on that official 61.2 true north last heading of AA 77 just before impact, as extracted from that FDR.
AND IT DOES NOT FIT THE IMPACT-POINT AT COLUMN 14, THE DAMAGE, THE LIGHT POLES NOR THE WITNESSES.

reply to post by LaBTop


LapTop,

Are you trying to convince yourself that you are correct? No one else seems to be buying what you are selling. Good luck in figuring out the truth.

If I recall correctly it was quite a struggle for you to figure out the correct departure point of this flight.

Originally posted by Six Sigma
LaBTop : John, does it not strike you as extremely strange, that the FBI within MINUTES of the impact, confiscated ALL these video feeds of cameras possibly able to register that plane?

That is not a clever FBI director directly reacting after being informed of the impact.
You know that these kinds of operations normally take weeks of planning, to get the right men to the right places.
Bear with me : EIGHTY FIVE camera feeds, from which a great part were confiscated within minutes of impact?

We can be credulous, but not stupid, do not underestimate the growing anger under the populace, we can see what they did, do and still plan.
Immense amounts of money disappeared and are disappearing while we type.
And they plan to rise the energy prizes globally, to unknown heights.

Six Sigma : Did you bother to look at the receipt? The Citgo video and hard drive were confiscated on September 12th. Not within "minutes" of impact.

I believe you should take Reheat's advice and find a better hobby. The nice weather is here. Try bird watching or start a nice butterfly collection.

I will repeat it for you especially one more time :
IF ALL the north of CITGO flight path witnesses were NOT MISTAKEN, then it's clear that 9/11 was one big black-operation.

The falsification of a FBI receipt's its date is, seen in that light, a VERY minor event. Read the huge ATS thread by Catherder. Look at the Sheraton Hotel witness reports about the same lightning fast seizure of their security camera tapes. They were in the process of watching them, when the FBI came to seize them.
Looks to me as a huge preplanned operation.
Plane flies "unexpected" into Pentagon. Some coolheaded FBI honcho decides to immediately seize 85 camera feeds around the Pentagon. Where the hell did he open that can of FBI agents PLUS all their cars, to be able to seize all these camera feeds within MINUTES ?

How many VDOT cameras did you count on Route 27 alone? Ever tried to count them in the available footage? No? A LOT ! And on the roads leading to the Pentagon? A LOT !
And lo and behold, that guy from the VDOT office along the Pike opposite from the Annex, said in an interview, that he did not have any footage of the time of impact.....Then he took his life, coincidentally at the same day or just after that CIT exposed their first NoC witnesses online.....what a strange coincidence. He had a wife and 3 little children......
What about all these black bulb cameras on the roof line of the west wall? One Lt Colonel ran to the video room beside the Pentagon's Main South Entrance, and watched in aw when he spooled back the tapes and played them back.
Never heard anything anymore from that man.
Do you really believe that especially those roof-line cameras were crappy ones? And not aimed at the lawn and the Heli Pad where presidents, generals and visiting heads of other states arrived all the time? Are you still believing in fairy tales too? These were top notch security cameras, and have for sure recorded and send their footage to that video room. And was saved on tapes.

You official story clamper's behavior does resemble a pack of wolfs, vicious and without any decency. One alpha male (Reheat..?..) and the obedient pack. No room for self-reflection.