Are you smarter than a universe?

Do you believe that you as a human being are more aware, conscious, and intelligent than The Universe which you currently find yourself in?

Naturally the stance of theists and/or spiritualists (we are God/Tao/Infinity/The Universe playing all the individuated roles of existence) is pretty easy to predict. So this is primarily directed to those who would, for example, state that the Sun and Earth are not conscious.

If your answer is that yes, you are smarter than a 5th gr... uhhh I mean... The Universe, what is your reasoning for this?

Namaste.

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This is in the Science and Technology forum specifically because I feel it is a genuine scientific question and not "just" a Philosophy and Metaphysical question. From the scientific and fundamental materialistic standpoint there is a yes or no answer here that should be determinable.

Now talk about food for thought. At first, I almost dismissed the question altogether because I thought, " Why would you ask such a question?" To my knowledge, we're made of the same building blocks as the rest of the Universe. Science pretty much has that dialed in. So to me what you're asking is, " Are you smarter than yourself?" We're, more or less, the Universe trying to understand itself." So to me, it's not a yes or no. More of an, "Ummm.... what?... Smarter than Universe?.... Smarter than Self?..." Just my instant thought, though.

So, to keep it simple, No. I don't think we're smarter than the Universe. Curious though, what are your thoughts on the matter?

Thanks for the brain food

We are the universe lol

The day someone invents immortality, then maybe they can stake their claim to being smarter than the universe and everything in it... No I do not think I am smarter than the universe and neither should anyone else. When your gone, the universe will still be breathing.

the Sun and the moon? They both paly a much bigger part in something compared to the ridiculous things we take part in on this planet.. Yes they are smarter than us and much, much bigger.

reply to post by HeWhosCalledIAm

Originally posted by HeWhosCalledIAm
Now talk about food for thought. At first, I almost dismissed the question altogether because I thought, " Why would you ask such a question?" To my knowledge, we're made of the same building blocks as the rest of the Universe. Science pretty much has that dialed in. So to me what you're asking is, " Are you smarter than yourself?" We're, more or less, the Universe trying to understand itself." So to me, it's not a yes or no. More of an, "Ummm.... what?... Smarter than Universe?.... Smarter than Self?..." Just my instant thought, though.

So, to keep it simple, No. I don't think we're smarter than the Universe. Curious though, what are your thoughts on the matter?

Thanks for the brain food

And thank you! Your reaction is the hoped for thought process when someone hasn't ever viewed consciousness/awareness from that direction. Especially an adamant materialist who holds the view that consciousness peaks with Humans (in our observable universe).

I agree, it's an easy question to dismiss at first glance, but I think that's what makes it a fairly potent one.

Namaste!

reply to post by Th0r

Agreed! Hello fellow self!

reply to post by DarknStormy

Even then, they would still be contained within the universe and their bounds wouldn't extend past the universe (otherwise they would simple "be" the entire universe), as well as their origin would have been from within the universe, therefore I don't know if the immortal could claim to be *smarter*. Perhaps a peer?

On every other point... agreed!

Namaste.

reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion


Not sure I'm following the logic, but is a tree smarter than the universe? How about a kangaroo? How about Koko, the gorilla that uses sign language? If none of these are smarter than the universe, how can we?

reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion


It is interesting to think about. If you were immortal, you could go anywhere you wanted, in the universe included. but even with that you would still have to work out a way to get there unless you invented wings for humans as well and flapped very fast

reply to post by jiggerj


Of course no-one is smarter than the universe, einstein included. Without it we simply wouldn't be here, we know the sun helps and maybe the moon, but apart from that, we are just here to explore it and learn as much as we can in the short time we have.

reply to post by jiggerj

I don't believe we are. The question (and thus why it is in the science and technology forum), is the materialist view that things like Rocks and Planets are *not* conscious.

A fundamental materialist (or atheist if you wish, but I'm trying to avoid turning this into a conversation about "God" and "religion") *would* assign more consciousness and intelligence to a gorilla than the universe. The universe is a "dumb blind watchmaker" from that perspective which is held by the bulk of current scientific thinking.

If they do not believe they are more conscious or intelligent than the universe, then they have to agree there is a "higher consciousness"... which then leads down a slope that modern science has refused to broach yet. But when the question is asked from this perspective, it puts the burden of proof on the materialist, not the spiritualist.

The "dumb blind watchmaker" approach to the universe is making a statement that bears burden of proof when it is challenged from this direction because it deals with JUST "The Material Universe" as they are comfortable dealing with it using the scientific method.

So you did follow the logic, the question just wasn't challenging the stance you hold, but the inverse.

Namaste!

Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I don't believe we are. The question (and thus why it is in the science and technology forum), is the materialist view that things like Rocks and Planets are *not* conscious.

A fundamental materialist (or atheist if you wish, but I'm trying to avoid turning this into a conversation about "God" and "religion") *would* assign more consciousness and intelligence to a gorilla than the universe. The universe is a "dumb blind watchmaker" from that perspective which is held by the bulk of current scientific thinking.

If they do not believe they are more conscious or intelligent than the universe, then they have to agree there is a "higher consciousness"... which then leads down a slope that modern science has refused to broach yet. But when the question is asked from this perspective, it puts the burden of proof on the materialist, not the spiritualist.

The "dumb blind watchmaker" approach to the universe is making a statement that bears burden of proof when it is challenged from this direction because it deals with JUST "The Material Universe" as they are comfortable dealing with it using the scientific method.

So you did follow the logic, the question just wasn't challenging the stance you hold, but the inverse.

Namaste!

edit on 2012/6/7 by ErgoTheConfusion because: (no reason given)

Sir, your intelligence is way above mine. I have no idea what you're saying. Bowing out here.

reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion


It is a hard topic. but i look at it like this in a way. The Earth moves whether we like it or not, you just have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and the Earth will take you to the cleaners, just the same as walking down a dark alley and running into the wrong person. Either way, you can be harmed.

This place has a mind of its own and it don't matter how smart we think we are, it will not show mercy if you happen to be at one of those places at one of those times. We should treat this place with a lot of respect because we never know when it is going to disrespect us and change our lives. this place is alive, just take a look around. It is relentless when it wants to be and i assume the same in the universe. there is always something happening. We are nothing compared to what surrounds us, and I'm not talking about towns and buildings either.. On so many different levels, everything here could be inconvenienced in the clicl of a finger and we would not be smart enough to see it.

reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion


I think Science might just be coming around. This take on conciousness is interesting because its held by a physisist.

Youtube vid.

I think the point that should be made is that the Universe has/is consciousness rather than mechanical intelligence (ie doing complex things that machines do). Cosmis intelligence surely does exist and those with reduced ego can use ego difffusion to break the ego barriers keeping the mind in (and our sentiences separate) can connect with the Universe and feel it. The times I have managed this I can tell you I have felt intelligence from everything, even from the smallest particles. Once the ego is dulled one can connect to the mind of the Universe which is made up jointly of the minds of its inhabitants (each of us donating a small part of our sentience) and the mind of God/the Godhead.

This is difficult to prove to those whose minds aren't as opened up in certain ways compared to others. From what I have experience, vibration is the simplest form of things and when this vibration is exposed to emotion, energy and practical intelligence arise.

Originally posted by Klimhazard
.....The times I have managed this I can tell you I have felt intelligence from everything, even from the smallest particles. Once the ego is dulled one can connect to the mind of the Universe which is made up jointly of the minds of its inhabitants (each of us donating a small part of our sentience) and the mind of God/the Godhead.
.....

Something in this universe birthed intelligence. Oxygen and Nitrogen and Hydrogen and Carbon and Phosphorous and Sulphur and Calcium combine to make up over 99% of life on this planet. Carl Sagan said it's how atoms are put together that matters most, not what the individual atoms are. So something in our universe knew how to put these atoms together to produce life. This something is probably a physics of some kind. The most important thing to remember is that life would never have existed if the universe could not first put it together. It's kind of like language. Language is not completely the accomplishment of humans. Without a mouth and vocal cords and the appropriate brain matter for speech and word use and social intelligence, we'd be without it. We didn't invent complex language, we just kind of utilized it because it came naturally and was deeply rooted in our far distant past. Language is communication and it's probably universal amongst life. And so similarly, we didn't invent ourselves either. Something in the universe played a major role in the distant past.

A little while ago I ruminated about how we trap energy in a reactor and transform it for our uses. I wondered if the same thing happens to intelligence. Maybe there's latent intelligence even in a single particle? Maybe quantum mechanics is somehow responsible for it or something else. Like energy, when intelligence is trapped inside a brain it can then be transformed to a more useful form. But what's trapping intelligence so it can use it? Well look at a star. Aren't stars in essence trapping energy and transforming it? Maybe intelligence is trapped and transformed naturally and life is its product. Or maybe our DNA uses our trapped/transformed intelligence to propagate itself.

And you know there're inanimate things that display many of the properties of life:
www.mnn.com - Scientist creates lifelike cells out of metal...
www.newscientist.com - Plasma blobs hint at new form of life ...

reply to post by jonnywhite

Huh... what if that's what our "body" is on the flip side (whatever one wishes to call it). The intelligence, or awareness of possibilities, or understanding. The greater our understanding... the greater our consciousness gravity the more we'll draw to ourselves, etc.

So as we gather more understanding on that side, we're able to "build and maintain and operate" more complex and capable bodies on *this* side.

reply to post by EncompassAll

Thanks for that! I've actually had that video linked from my personal page for a while as well. He explains a lot of things very well and is something I'm usually happy to give people who aren't well versed in the concept too.