Before The Big Bang

Originally posted by spy66

My point is that we have classified our universe from the space surrounding it as a sphere. We have even aged it. If we can age it and measure it, it sure ain't infinite. Or as old as the space surrounding it.

We haven't done that at all. There's a difference between the universe and the observable universe. The observable universe is a sphere because it's the region we can see, which extends out to a given radius in every direction. But that's only because light from further away hasn't reached us. The infinite space exists, light just hasn't gotten here from there yet.
The "age of the universe" really only goes back to the time of the completely theoretical Big Bang, which isn't necessarily the formation of space. That is, after all, what this entire thread is about.

When it comes to the flat universe argument. I agree that it looks flat. But is it really flat?

What do you mean by flat?

A flat space is defined as one in which two parallel lines will remain parallel. This is the case in our universe, for as far as we've been able to test it. You and ChaoticOrder were discussing this earlier.
And, for the record, even a spherical region (like the observable universe) is spatially flat.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

 

The only issue with that is, the Big Bang wasn't really an explosion. The "birth" of the universe was (theoretically, at least) a period of extreme expansion in the first fraction of a second.

Ive allways wondered if the big bang really was the only big bang, then what was it exactly expanding into? how could it expand if there was no room for it to expand into?
that leads me to believe that we are only one of many possible big bangs and can only observe the dimension of the big bang from our relative cosmic egg.
What im trying to say is I dont think the big bang was the first creation. Nothing had to exist so that matter could expand into it. So why did the nothing exist first? who created the nothing? lol

reply to post by Foxy1


An infinite universe doesn't need anything to expand into...it just becomes a "bigger" infinite.

reply to post by CLPrime


but if thats true why do we have spacing between matter? if it didnt need anything to expand into why isnt matter or the expansion like a solid block of ever growing wood or other hard substance? why do we have distances of empty space between galaxies and comets zinging around the cosmos?

reply to post by Foxy1


Matter doesn't form like that. Even an infinite universe initially full of energetic particles will cool to form matter that disperses and locally gravitationally attracts to form structures separated by vast distances.

Or, if you accept ChaoticOrder's theory, then it's because matter formed from the bottom up, so-to-speak - from nothing to what we see now.

By "infinite universe," I mean an infinite empty space in which matter formed, not a universe packed full of an infinite amount of stuff.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Augustine, from City of God

"And yet the validity of logical sequences is not a thing devised by men, but is observed and noted by them that they may be able to learn and teach it; for it exists eternally in the reason of things, and has its origin with God. For as the man who narrates the order of events does not himself create that order; and as he who describes the situations of places, or the natures of animals, or roots, or minerals, does not describe arrangements of man; and as he who points out the stars and their movements does not point out anything that he himself or any other man has ordained;—in the same way, he who says, “When the consequent is false, the antecedent must also be false,” says what is most true; but he does not himself make it so, he only points out that it is so."

The weakest argument for existence is one that ignores the simple fact that nothing rises above its source in the universe. The sun and moon cannot be our source since we are greater than our source. Quantum physics demands that the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability. Without an observer, there is no wave collapsed. Energy is information.

I could go on and on, but this documentary ignores the bulk of the theory that would demand a Creator and first consciousness preexisting matter. Information Entropy Theory, Collapsing Wave Function Theory and the latest understanding that Energy is information. John 1 states the case elegantly.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

We are created by Word (Information). Light is a trinity of Particle (LIGHT Quanta), Wave (WORD) and Spirit (Consciousness). Science conveniently leaves out the most important part of Spirit. This is blasphemy against the Spirit. The only unforgivable sin is disbelief against such a great cloud of witness.

They are without excuse (Romans 1). What does a person do to live? They think and they move only. The rest is express from information into a form our consciousness can occupy. We do none of it. An acorn contains the 75 foot oak tree. At our essence, we are information that can be saved or lost. To be born again, you must first die. Death brings new life. Nothing of what we know about our reality denies this conclusion. The Bible confirms the physics.

Genesis 1:1

In the Beginning (Time), God created the heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy).

Energy (Light) and Information (Word) is expressed into an image of Time and Space in the form of Matter that is collapsed by consciousness as a Wave. We are a moving image, as stated in Genesis. The Image is produced from One God to One person. In between, the projection is of Father (Light), Son (Wave / Word) and Holy Spirit (Consciousness).

1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by Foxy1

 

Matter doesn't form like that. Even an infinite universe initially full of energetic particles will cool to form matter that disperses and locally gravitationally attracts to form structures separated by vast distances.

Or, if you accept ChaoticOrder's theory, then it's because matter formed from the bottom up, so-to-speak - from nothing to what we see now.

By "infinite universe," I mean an infinite empty space in which matter formed, not a universe packed full of an infinite amount of stuff.

edit on 3-6-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)

in an infinite universe initially full of energetic particles, what would stop the energetic particles from initially being further then the confines of the present universe? in infinite expanse of space, why would a smidgen of a section contain energetic particles which clustery blossom into a massive material universe?

also are energetic particles completely foreign to the makeup and "essence" of space? or infinite space without energetic particles,, can create energetic particles?

reply to post by CLPrime


thats where I am confused; if the empty space didnt exist before the singularity exploded creating the expansion and cooling of matter and larger bodies attracting smaller and so on causing distances and separtation of matter....
How would the matter cool or expand? I just cant wrap my head around a highly dense particle exploding would cause empty space to exist. it just seems logical that space would exist before the particle exploded. if space didnt exist first i dont see why matter would even want to seperate if was nothing for it to seperate into even after cooling.

And if space didnt exist before the big bang that would mean its constantly pushing against/forcing non-reality out of its path in all directions? and non-reality just lets reality push against it without any resistance? sounds like some sort earth is flat theory to me lol.

reply to post by Shark_Feeder

Sorry OP i'm going to change the subject so i apologise.

Here is a couple of questions that I have been discussing with my friends over a few cold beers, we are hoping that someone is kind enough to give us an answers as we are just budding physicists who are steaming drunk :

In Einstein's general relativity it provides a unified description of gravity as a geometric property of space and time, or spacetime. In particular, the curvature of spacetime is directly related to the energy and momentum of whatever matter and radiation are present.

The questions that was asked was if that the Sun and Earth both warp spacetime, along with other planets and bodies in our system, it will also produce gravitanional waves. Do these gravitanonal waves have an effect on space time itself between these bodies? And if so, how does the speed of light stay constant through these changes in space time?

Hope this makes sense to some one.

reply to post by ImaFungi


Similar to the basis of this thread, Quantum Mechanics says that an infinite empty universe can indeed spontaneously produce energy. The difference is, this thread is about quantum fluctuations producing particles, whereas the theory I present is about the quantum vacuum collapsing to a lower energy state, releasing an infinite amount of energy throughout the initially empty infinite universe.

The energy released by the vacuum collapse is actually sufficient to explain the entire formation of the universe:

1) the energy release is uniform throughout the entire universe, leading to the isotropy we see today
2) the energy exerts negative pressure, fully accounting for the expansion of the universe
3) the energy cools as the universe expands, and this causes it to condense and form matter particles

So, take one infinite quantum vacuum and, with no other requirements or actions, it will eventually form an expanding matter-filled universe all on its own. To me, that's the very definition of elegance.

reply to post by Foxy1


I'm saying the infinite space did exist, always. No singularity, just an empty universe that, given a single quantum mechanical effect, spontaneously gave birth to a matter-filled universe. For more detail on that, read my last post above.

reply to post by windsorblue


Gravity waves (at least, in this context) are theoretical. Mass warps spacetime...that's the only effect gravity has. Technically, gravity is described by the stress-energy tensor, which defines how a 4-dimensional space is curved by the presence of energy (of which mass is a type). This doesn't involve waves.
Photons follow straight line through curved spacetime. This gives the appearance that light is bent by massive objects, but they're really just following the bends in the 4-dimensional space surrounding the object.

So, in a sense, light is affected by gravity...but only according to an external observer.

reply to post by CLPrime


the idea of quantum vacuum is that space time itself is a matrix, that the vacuum is a structure?

and the idea that space/vacuum is infinite, is that if we had a rocket-ship that had unlimited fuel and was not affected by anything, we could travel at light speed straight and forever?

what i was meaning in the first question, was in this infinite expanse of space,, if that rocket ship was traveling could there be another spontaneous universe quantomly beginning,, or is the "universe" only the related atomized material/energy we are familiar with in this section of infinite space?

if there are multiple universe would they be sharing the same infinite space?
or can there be multiple infinite vacuums?

reply to post by ImaFungi


Even if you wanted to walk, you could keep walking through space in a straight line forever. No end in any direction.

And this theory denies the existence of other universe because this universe is the infinite universe occupying the entirety of reality. And there can be no other universe forming elsewhere because any region of vacuum in this universe that collapses to release more energy is just going to add more energy/matter to this existing universe.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by Foxy1

 

I'm saying the infinite space did exist, always. No singularity, just an empty universe that, given a single quantum mechanical effect, spontaneously gave birth to a matter-filled universe. For more detail on that, read my last post above.

edit on 3-6-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)

in an empty infinite universe,, what would the quantum mechanical effort be made of? back to, how can absolutely nothing, create something/everything we know exists? how can nothing form something, and what would the something consist of? what would the nothing form the something with?

Originally posted by CLPrime


And this theory denies the existence of other universe because this universe is the infinite universe occupying the entirety of reality. And there can be no other universe forming elsewhere because any region of vacuum in this universe that collapses to release more energy is just going to add more energy/matter to this existing universe.

in complete ignorance why should we think that the earth is round, or that there is land beyond our vision of the tree line,, why should we think there are other planets, there doesn't feel like there are other planets, why should we think this is the only universe that exists? because as of now it looks that way? or feels that way?

I thought in string theory physics they calculated that at least 11 different dimensions must exist for higher mathematics to makes sense as they got more complex down the road. or 26 dimensions under the bosnan approach

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Foxy1


String theory is a pitiful attempt to mathematically describe particle physics. Personally, I prefer a version of the theory referred to in the OP, LQG (Loop Quantum Gravity).

reply to post by ImaFungi


My conclusion was based on the initial assumption. The assumption was that the universe is infinite. The natural conclusion from this is that it this the only universe. Multiple infinite universe cannot co-exist.

reply to post by ImaFungi


The quantum mechanical effect is the spontaneous collapse of the vacuum. Here's how I typically describe it...

The quantum definition of a vacuum is the lowest energy state of a given system. This is akin to walking on the ground. The ground is your lowest position (the lowest energy state). Now, let's say you're walking along and you fal through an abandoned mine shaft. Suddenly, you find yourself at an even lower position (a lower energy state).

It's the same with the quantum vacuum. Initially, the universe was 100% vacuum - that is, space at its lowest energy state for this given system (the system being the entire infinite universe). Then, spontaneously, that energy state collapsed, releasing an immense amount of energy (like you falling down the mine shaft).

This is an established quantum mechanical process.