Before The Big Bang

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

The last thing you said actually contradicts your whole post before it. Too much gravity will stop time. No gravity allows time to pass at the rate it wants to. What gravity does is slow the local passage of time. Also, it doesn't create movement, it curves space-time, which affects an objects path through that space-time, giving the appearance of acceleration.

Also, in the theory I presented, there's more than just one photon left in the whole universe. The universe would contain just as much matter/energy as it does now, it's just spread over a far larger volume.

I only found this posted immediately after which is not linked to my post where I request an example of something at a standstill in space. That something would have to be relative to the primeval atom's position which is a complete unknown.

At any rate in regards to that post of yours, I like your part where you state, "Too much gravity will stop time. No gravity allows time to pass at the rate it wants to. What gravity does is slow the local passage of time. Also, it doesn't create movement, it curves space-time, which affects an objects path through that space-time, giving the appearance of acceleration."

I don't understand where you think I made a contradiction, ChaosOrder believes I make contradiction in my reasoning also. I posted a thread of my own with some questions pertaining to this subtopic which was turning into a digression here. Most feedback I get on it is about how the two subject matters are calculated, and not any connections between the two subjects of time dilation which I am asking on the thread, but you seem to understand the mechanics. Appearance or not you seem to have made a connection between the two subjects regarding time dilation. The both curve space/time. Depress in making an ever deepening gravity well that can also be called a time well. upload.wikimedia.org... vity_Wells_Potential_Plus_Kinetic_Energy_-_Circle-Ellipse-Parabola-Hyperbola.png Either way you have to travel down and up again along its contour to get from point A to point B traveling the path of time even though it's a perceived straight line being traveled across space.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Yes, and it all folds back on itself in a closed perpetual state, or system rather.

edit on 4-6-2012 by LilDudeissocool because: (no reason given)

what would cause all the spread energy at the edges of the universe,,,,,, very far from a common center,,,,, to come hurtling back towards the center?

For one nothing is traveling in a straight line outwardly from the center, the epicenter of the Big Bang and will eventually boomerang back to its starting point. The other is when there is no more mass to speak of as everything breaks down to photons that will have vast distances between them at some point in the future (btw I agree with CLPrime on everything breaking down to photons eventually) there will be no more gravity wells in space affecting time if they were not moving, but this is a double edge sward as the photons will be traveling at such an accelerated rate that they will have enough mass to make each of their gravity wells they create deep enough in the fabric of space to eventually stop time. When that happens all time comes rushing together into that frame of reference.

Either way the primeval atom will recreate itself and this will all happen all over again in the same exact order as the last time around.

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Yes, and it all folds back on itself in a closed perpetual state, or system rather.

edit on 4-6-2012 by LilDudeissocool because: (no reason given)

what would cause all the spread energy at the edges of the universe,,,,,, very far from a common center,,,,, to come hurtling back towards the center?

For one nothing is traveling in a straight line outwardly from the center, the epicenter of the Big Bang and will eventually boomerang back to its starting point. The other is when there is no more mass to speak of as everything breaks down to photons that will have vast distances between them at some point in the future (btw I agree with CLPrime on everything breaking down to photons eventually) there will be no more gravity wells in space affecting time if they were not moving, but this is a double edge sward as the photons will be traveling at such an accelerated rate that they will have enough mass to make each of their gravity wells they create deep enough in the fabric of space to eventually stop time. When that happens all time comes rushing together into that frame of reference.

Either way the primeval atom will recreate itself and this will all happen all over again in the same exact order as the last time around.

theres a lot of assumptions, like the specific details of "exact order as last time around".........

ok so eventually everything will break down including planets and asteroids,,,?

"eventually stop time. When that happens all time comes rushing together into that frame of reference. "

what do you mean all time comes rushing together into that frame of reference?


" the epicenter of the Big Bang and will eventually boomerang back to its starting point."

I still dont get what will cause this to occur?

Originally posted by surewhynot
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

Well i can name one, it is theorised a white hole is a stationary object in space,

en.wikipedia.org...

Yeah I would like to believe they exist because they link the poles of beginning and end of time together. They would have to be stationary in time, and maybe the bottom of black holes are too, but they are only theoretical. I like to think if something was stationary in space relative to the location of the primeval atom it would enter into a realm of zero time, the complete forth dimension as one placing it at the center of time, the singularity, looking out into the vista of all time where each frame of time from beginning to end could be observed in a single frame looking out from the center, or touching poles rather, of a semi transparent onion that bends back on itself at its equator.

reply to post by LilDudeissocool


This was my response (here):

I was speaking theoretically. An object can be moving or at rest, it doesn't matter. In fact, as you state, it's velocity that slows time... by your own admission, no movement allows time to pass freely, while movement is the thing that stops it.

I never meant for my statement to be taken to mean that anything ever actually stands still. My statement was hypothetical, in order to establish the contradiction in your thinking.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Yes, and it all folds back on itself in a closed perpetual state, or system rather.

edit on 4-6-2012 by LilDudeissocool because: (no reason given)

what would cause all the spread energy at the edges of the universe,,,,,, very far from a common center,,,,, to come hurtling back towards the center?

For one nothing is traveling in a straight line outwardly from the center, the epicenter of the Big Bang and will eventually boomerang back to its starting point. The other is when there is no more mass to speak of as everything breaks down to photons that will have vast distances between them at some point in the future (btw I agree with CLPrime on everything breaking down to photons eventually) there will be no more gravity wells in space affecting time if they were not moving, but this is a double edge sward as the photons will be traveling at such an accelerated rate that they will have enough mass to make each of their gravity wells they create deep enough in the fabric of space to eventually stop time. When that happens all time comes rushing together into that frame of reference.

Either way the primeval atom will recreate itself and this will all happen all over again in the same exact order as the last time around.

theres a lot of assumptions, like the specific details of "exact order as last time around".........

If everything and every event that occurs is connected to the singularity then the course of the Universe is predetermined repeating itself in a perpetual cycle of recreation.

ok so eventually everything will break down including planets and asteroids,,,?

"eventually stop time. When that happens all time comes rushing together into that frame of reference. "

what do you mean all time comes rushing together into that frame of reference?

A single frame of reference where all of time can be observed as one solid state. We see only the present one onion layer at a time, not the whole onion which does exist. To visualize it, take that onion and fold each layer back into itself to where it looks like a doughnut. the center is time sopped and is also the center of space where the primeval atom exists.

" the epicenter of the Big Bang and will eventually boomerang back to its starting point."

I still dont get what will cause this to occur?

Stopped time and immense gravity cause an implosion that then blasts outward.

"If everything and every event that occurs is connected to the singularity then the course of the Universe is predetermined repeating itself in a perpetual cycle of recreation."

was it you before that marveled at the odds of you and i existing? with what you just said there was a hundred percent chance of us existing ( because it was determined) I do not think everything is determined,, i could be sleeping right now, killing a man, or jumping off a bridge...... i believe what happens happens but there is room for probability,,,,, each probability now effects outcomes for later.......



" Stopped time and immense gravity cause an implosion that then blasts outward. "

ok i see what you see,,,, the universe is like newtons cradle... everything everywhere,, everything pulled back to center,,,, the force of everything being pulled back to center causes everything to go everywhere?

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

This was my response (here):

I was speaking theoretically. An object can be moving or at rest, it doesn't matter. In fact, as you state, it's velocity that slows time... by your own admission, no movement allows time to pass freely, while movement is the thing that stops it.

I never meant for my statement to be taken to mean that anything ever actually stands still. My statement was hypothetical, in order to establish the contradiction in your thinking.

reply to post by CLPrime


That doesn't cite an example of anything at rest in the Universe. I thought you were speaking to some other post I made with that bottom reply.


Thing is the fourth dimension, time, is perpendicular to the fabric space 3D. The indentation that mass makes in that fabric creates a gravity well that can be traveled vertically which is as close to being in the complete forth dimension as we can get. At the center of out galaxy is a massive black hole. It has vertical sides, and if we could crawl along those sides of the well, we would be getting close to stop, and maybe even able to see a silhouette of all time as I have described with the onion analogy.

The vertical sides of a black hole would be the closest to an answer I think that can be cited.

Originally posted by ImaFungi


"If everything and every event that occurs is connected to the singularity then the course of the Universe is predetermined repeating itself in a perpetual cycle of recreation."

was it you before that marveled at the odds of you and i existing? with what you just said there was a hundred percent chance of us existing ( because it was determined) I do not think everything is determined,, i could be sleeping right now, killing a man, or jumping off a bridge...... i believe what happens happens but there is room for probability,,,,, each probability now effects outcomes for later.......



" Stopped time and immense gravity cause an implosion that then blasts outward. "

ok i see what you see,,,, the universe is like newtons cradle... everything everywhere,, everything pulled back to center,,,, the force of everything being pulled back to center causes everything to go everywhere?

Considering chaos theory the bases of randomness there are astronomical odds involved of you and I existing right now. With predetermination there is 100% we do considering we have no realization of time passage between our individual deaths and births.


Speaking to your denial of predetermination for what you call "probability" which is randomness in how you are employing the term, you would have to discount two things. One is to not believe in the singularity of the Big Bang, and two, believe that the law of conservation of energy is not true. To have a random universe energy would have to be continuously created and destroyed to create different outcomes, and all energy not having a common origin.

Originally posted by ImaFungi


"If everything and every event that occurs is connected to the singularity then the course of the Universe is predetermined repeating itself in a perpetual cycle of recreation."

was it you before that marveled at the odds of you and i existing? with what you just said there was a hundred percent chance of us existing ( because it was determined) I do not think everything is determined,, i could be sleeping right now, killing a man, or jumping off a bridge...... i believe what happens happens but there is room for probability,,,,, each probability now effects outcomes for later.......



" Stopped time and immense gravity cause an implosion that then blasts outward. "

ok i see what you see,,,, the universe is like newtons cradle... everything everywhere,, everything pulled back to center,,,, the force of everything being pulled back to center causes everything to go everywhere?

In newtons cradle gravity pulls the ball down.But what is going to collapse the universe if we dont have enough mass therefore gravity is to weak? Im glad you understand what hes saying but as far as i can tell it makes no sense.

reply to post by LilDudeissocool


"Speaking to your denial of predetermination for what you call "probability" which is randomness in how you are employing the term, you would have to discount two things. One is to not believe in the singularity of the Big Bang, and two, believe that the law of conservation of energy is not true. To have a random universe energy would have to be continuously created and destroyed to create different outcomes, and all energy not having a common origin."


i think some things are determined, in that ( probability) they are more likely to happen,,,,,, now that the earth is in the suns orbit,,, it is more likely that the earth will stay in orbit then turn into a slice of pizza...... but i also believe there is randomness,,,, like i twisted my ankle and didnt shoot a deer for dinner,,,,, this is random,,, it didnt have to happen,, but it did,,.,.,.,.

reply to post by dragonridr


i was wondering the same as you......... but i think hes saying that there is the most mass towards the inner center of the universe then the outsides,,, so when the outsides get to far,,, all the mass in the center will start to over ride the outer mass and begin pulling it back in towards center.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

"Speaking to your denial of predetermination for what you call "probability" which is randomness in how you are employing the term, you would have to discount two things. One is to not believe in the singularity of the Big Bang, and two, believe that the law of conservation of energy is not true. To have a random universe energy would have to be continuously created and destroyed to create different outcomes, and all energy not having a common origin."


i think some things are determined, in that ( probability) they are more likely to happen,,,,,, now that the earth is in the suns orbit,,, it is more likely that the earth will stay in orbit then turn into a slice of pizza...... but i also believe there is randomness,,,, like i twisted my ankle and didnt shoot a deer for dinner,,,,, this is random,,, it didnt have to happen,, but it did,,.,.,.,.

All would be events are not linked back to the singularity, that why they didn't happen. Your decisions are based on influences and experiences that have made you decision making process what it is, even the food you ate today that is being metabolized at this moment where some of it will be turned into brain chemicals, are all caused from being linked to the singularity of the Big Bang. Your freewill is an illusion. Just like dice thrown will come to rest due to all the determining factors involved, all are linked to the singularity of the Big Bang.


Name one thing in this universe that is not linked back to the singularity of the Big Bang? If you can then randomness has merit.

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

"Speaking to your denial of predetermination for what you call "probability" which is randomness in how you are employing the term, you would have to discount two things. One is to not believe in the singularity of the Big Bang, and two, believe that the law of conservation of energy is not true. To have a random universe energy would have to be continuously created and destroyed to create different outcomes, and all energy not having a common origin."


i think some things are determined, in that ( probability) they are more likely to happen,,,,,, now that the earth is in the suns orbit,,, it is more likely that the earth will stay in orbit then turn into a slice of pizza...... but i also believe there is randomness,,,, like i twisted my ankle and didnt shoot a deer for dinner,,,,, this is random,,, it didnt have to happen,, but it did,,.,.,.,.

All would be events are not linked back to the singularity, that why they didn't happen. Your decisions are based on influences and experiences that have made you decision making process what it is, even the food you ate today that is being metabolized at this moment where some of it will be turned into brain chemicals, are all caused from being linked to the singularity of the Big Bang. Your freewill is an illusion. Just like dice thrown will come to rest due to all the determining factors involved, all are linked to the singularity of the Big Bang.


Name one thing in this universe that is not linked back to the singularity of the Big Bang? If you can then randomness has merit.

i will agree that everything in the universe happens because of the fact that the universe happened..... but i do think there are random occurrences ( meaning complex events that are unpredictable and could have had different outcomes) for example every human that has ever lived and who they have mated with,,, this is a random mish mash of many variables that led to the meeting of partners and the desiree to remain with that partner and reproduce,,,, i dont think it had to happen the way it did,,,,, but looking back on everything we can say it all happened because it did........ .,,.,, maybe we misunderstand each others words and deffinitions and are arguing semantics,,,,.,

i admit everything is linked back to the beginning of the universe,, but we are creatures with a substantial amount of free will compared to rocks and trees.

reply to post by ImaFungi


You can't predict what happens like you can't predict what happens following a really good book that has lots of twists and turns, but the book is written nonetheless with an ending. You're just flipping through pages at the present.

Randomness is a belief system based on the idea of wanting to think the future has options so we all can feel like we are in charge of destiny.

You still have to separate and influence of an event from the singularity for it to be a random outcome and that is impossible. because everything in the universe that affects everything else contained in it is all connected to the singularity. Just as a bowling ball released down a bowling lane once it is released will knockdown a predetermined amount of pins as the singularity of the ball being released has predetermine everything else that will happen after.

Every thought you ever had and will have is linked to the singularity of the Big Bang event. You only think you have freewill because you feel you do, but you truly don't. Nobody truly has freewill. I hate to cite the movie Trading Places staring Eddy Murphy, as it has sort of a silly premise, but there is a lot of truth to what the premise is about.

reply to post by LilDudeissocool


i get what your saying but i dont think its completely true...

if Einstein didnt come up with his theories do you think someone else would have? or your point of hindsight is 20/20,, is that einstein had to be himself, had to do everything exactly as he did every micro second of every breath of his existence,, because the big bang happened? i say no, einstein could have gotten hit by a car and killed when he was ten,,, i say that this atom that linked with another to create a bond could have been another,,, i wouldnt be me if this were to happen but my parents could have not met,.,.,.

things have a probability to occur, and when they do in reality it is real so it happens,,,, when that thing happens it allows for new possibilities and combinations to occur......

reply to post by ImaFungi


Butterfly effect? I'm sure you understand it. It's also called the ripple effect. The unknowns involved with going back in time and changing events that have a domino effect on outcomes in all directions from that point on.

There are only to ways the butterfly effect can change and outcome. 1) The event or action has to have some link to it broken in it's direct line of linkage to the Big bang event. All things are, so that can't happen. 2) The law of conservation of energy has to be compromised which is impossible. If it was possible such as, if I may use my bowling ball analogy once again, a sudden draft out of no where flows across the bowling lane and the traveling ball down the lane that causes the ball to drift ever so slightly veering it just enough for the potential outcome to be changed in knocking over the predetermined/destined pins that would have been knocked over if the sudden draft never materialized. Lets say the draft came out of the fifth dimension having an origin not linked to the singularity of the Big Bang. Because that's what it would take for the course of events to be changed from a predetermined order, and therefore giving randomness validity as a reality in the cascade of cause and effect dynamics that rules this universe. Same is true with a car that would hypothetically run over Einstein, it would have to be driven out of the fifth dimension to have such an event be possible.

The reason why predetermination is not popular and why you are not grasping the mechanics involved is because you have been programmed not to open your mind up to the possibility that predetermination is much more plausible than randomness.

Right now the paradigm of popular belief is "randomness." It's simply a product of our time based on the knowledge that is allowed to be dissimulated by the establishment as it is least threatening to the existence of the establishment.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

things have a probability to occur, and when they do in reality it is real so it happens,,,, when that thing happens it allows for new possibilities and combinations to occur......

edit on 4-6-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

Probability only pertains to the mathematics involved in predicting most probable outcomes based on less than total information that could predict a definite outcome. All events are definite outcomes based on totals of 1) total energy contained in the Universe and 2) everything being linked to the singularity of the Big Bang. You have to be able to affect 1 or 2 in order to have a change in possible outcome. It's impossible so all outcomes have been predetermined since the Big Bang event.

Was there any foreplay before the big bang? Anybody?

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Butterfly effect? I'm sure you understand it. It's also called the ripple effect. The unknowns involved with going back in time and changing events that have a domino effect on outcomes in all directions from that point on.

There are only to ways the butterfly effect can change and outcome. 1) The event or action has to have some link to it broken in it's direct line of linkage to the Big bang event. All things are, so that can't happen. 2) The law of conservation of energy has to be compromised which is impossible. If it was possible such as, if I may use my bowling ball analogy once again, a sudden draft out of no where flows across the bowling lane and the traveling ball down the lane that causes the ball to drift ever so slightly veering it just enough for the potential outcome to be changed in knocking over the predetermined/destined pins that would have been knocked over if the sudden draft never materialized. Lets say the draft came out of the fifth dimension having an origin not linked to the singularity of the Big Bang. Because that's what it would take for the course of events to be changed from a predetermined order, and therefore giving randomness validity as a reality in the cascade of cause and effect dynamics that rules this universe. Same is true with a car that would hypothetically run over Einstein, it would have to be driven out of the fifth dimension to have such an event be possible.

The reason why predetermination is not popular and why you are not grasping the mechanics involved is because you have been programmed not to open your mind up to the possibility that predetermination is much more plausible than randomness.

Right now the paradigm of popular belief is "randomness." It's simply a product of our time based on the knowledge that is allowed to be dissimulated by the establishment as it is least threatening to the existence of the establishment.

its easy for me to grasp what your saying and i understand it...... are you trying to understand what im saying??

it was not predetermined that einstein would not get hit by a car... its just that throughout his life he didnt......

things can either happen or they dont,,,,, you dont need to use the 5th dimension stuff to veer away from the big bang....... starting right now, i am saying the rest of your life is not predetermined,,,,,,, since 2 completely unrelated different things cannot happen to one person at the same time ( for example getting hit by a car,,, or not) one or the other will happen....... im not saying if we went back in time and killed einstein..... im saying hypothetically a 100,000 years ago all the humans could have died and we would not be here right now..... im saying the pitcher of a baseball game who let up a game winning walk off homerun with 2 outs and 2 strikes could have easily stuck the batter out..... there are deffinitly a lot of aspects of reality that are unavoidable and forcibly given to us by nature,,,,, but it is noone else but you who will make the choice on what you will have for lunch tomorrow ( unless you give me some crap like you only have ham and cheese, so the universe determined what you will eat for lunch tomorrow) it is you who will make the choice whether or not to run over the cyclist on the way to work,,,, you can,,, or you cannot,,, its up to you....... this is human free will,,, use it wisely...... if humans didn't use this freedom to make choices,,, nothing a human has ever done that sets humans apart from animals( every creation a human has ever done) would ever have been done....