Would the Holocaust have been avoided, had Germany won World War 1?

I had this thought when I was talking to my girl, a sudden realization if you will, that if World War 1 had been won by the Kaiser and his German Empire - would World War 2, and the Holocaust, not have happened? Part of the reason why the Nazi Party came to power in Germany was the depression caused by the Versailles Treaty, which included an insane "fine" for the war, amounting to no less than approximately 442 billion US dollars in today's value. Quoting Wikipedia:

Of the many provisions in the treaty, one of the most important and controversial required Germany to accept responsibility for causing the war (along with Austria and Hungary, according to the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye and the Treaty of Trianon, respectively) and, under the terms of articles 231–248 (later known as the War Guilt clauses), to disarm, make substantial territorial concessions and pay heavy reparations to certain countries that had formed the Entente powers. In 1921 the total cost of these reparations was assessed at 132 billion Marks (then $31.4 billion or £6.6 billion, roughly equivalent to US $442 billion or UK £284 billion in 2012), a sum that many economists at the time, notably John Maynard Keynes, deemed to be excessive and counterproductive and would have taken Germany until 1988 to pay.[2][3] The final payments ended up being made on 4 October 2010,[4] the 20th anniversary of German reunification, and some 92 years after the end of the war for which they were exacted

There's also the Nazis' Dolchstosslegende, or Stab-in-the-back myth, where they, basically, blamed Jews for the loss of the war, which was very prominent in their propaganda on the path to power over the Third Reich. They essentially blamed anyone they did not like, including republicans, bolsheviks and socialists, but especially the jews, for the loss of the war, which most likely helped in inciting the tremendous hatred for jews that permeated Germany during and before World War 2. Dolschstosslegende

The stab-in-the-back myth (German: About this sound Dolchstoßlegende (help·info))[1] is the notion, widely believed in right-wing circles in Germany after 1918, that the German Army did not lose World War I but was instead betrayed by the civilians on the home front, especially the republicans who overthrew the monarchy. Advocates denounced the German government leaders who signed the Armistice on November 11, 1918, as the "November Criminals".

So, basically, I'm suggesting the case here for discussion, that, had Germany won World War 1 - could the Holocaust have been avoided? Or would it then instead have taken place in Britain, or maybe even America? Was the Holocaust "inevitable", in one country or another?

Your right if germany won Did like a Versailles Treaty on England and france. ww2 without hitler.

The hypothesis stands to be debatable, however the Holocaust wasn't the only antisemitic government institution at the time. Antisemitism in Europe continued after WWII.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

It was also a part of the Russian Empire, called Pogroms.

en.wikipedia.org...

So WWI being won by the Germans would not have stopped Anti-Semitism from being an institutional problem among the European nations with a Christian Majority. Christians persecuting the Jews for being Jews has had a long history, the Nazis simply used them as a scapegoat for losing WWI instead of owning up to the fact that when the USA entered the war it counter-balanced the fact Russia withdrew from the war.

Americans were a large influx of troops in a war of attrition that both sides had almost no hopes of winning, the threat of mutiny on both sides ran so high at the time that the Communist takeover in Russia was seen as the start of a domino effect.

If the Americans had never intervened in WWI then the peace treaty might have been more fair for all sides, however the American entry into the war basically guaranteed harsh terms for the losing side, who was going to pay for what became a political issue even though the war had started with the assassination or an Austrian Archduke.

The Holocaust would have been avoided, yes, however Antisemitism would have remained rampant in Europe.

The Nazis also executed Homosexuals and Gypsies, and to this day anti-Gypsy sentiment remains.

So in an educated guess if Germany had won WWI the Holocaust would have been avoided as an efficient model of killing, but the anti-Semitism and anti-Roma that remained in Europe would have been longer, drawn out and perhaps to this day still a large problem.

I think it was inevitable, Hitler didn't work alone... He was just a good public face, the other powers hid behind him, if Germany had of won, I think the holocaust could have happened sooner.... The west weren't even botheres untill it started affecting their lives.

That's something that will never be known.

It seems likely, given attitudes in many places towards those of the Jewish faith, that something would have happened. Whether to the extent of the Holocaust, or not, who knows?

which holocaust?
the one after ww 1, or the one at ww2, or the one in i think it was armenia|?
there have been several promulgated by the zionist media

considering it was people like Jewish george soros who turned in the holocaust victims and it was the Jewish Rothschilds among other who collected the loot...Id say someone was bound and determined to have a holocaust.

considering the one that happened probably before hitler was even born..it would be wise to look at the reality of the situation

reply to post by Sachyriel


I see your point. In a way the extreme horror of the Holocaust may have contributed to making it completely unacceptable, at least for the majority of people, to persecute jews, even if the effect may have had little effect in Soviet Russia.

reply to post by Sinny


True enough. Funny how history repeats itself (Rwanda). The more things change, the more they stay the same. But would antisemitism in Germany still have become so rampant without Hitler and the Nazi Party taking power?

The Kaiserreich mod for the Hearts of Iron game Darkest Hour is basically what you described, where the Central Powers won the Weltkrieg (German for Worldwar). In 1936 Germany is stronger than ever, although they are now dealing with an economic meltdown, Austria Hungary and the Ottoman Empire didn't collapse, even though they continue to have underlying structural problems. In the wake of their victory Russia is on the verge of being a failed state and doesn't really stabilize until the late 1930s, often only after a second soviet revolution (it usually fails) The unstable post war France and Britain both have socialist, or rather syndicalist, revolutions and things don't turn out nearly as bad for the citizens of Britain as they did in Soviet Russia in reality. France is a bit scary however, and seek to spread the light of syndicalism to the world. The British royalty are exiled to Canada and the French government to North Africa. They and South Africa are all that remains of the Entente Cordiale. Half of China exists under a German corporate state called Allgemeine Ostasiatische Gesellschaft and the other parts are ruled by the corrupt Qing Empire and various warlords. Germany owns the Suez Canal, Ceylon, Indochina, Malta, and many pacific islands. America, which did not participate in the Weltkrieg is in political disarray, being torn apart by both far right and far left elements. This ultimately leads to a 4 way civil war between the US Government, now under the dictatorship of MacArthur, the syndicalists lead by Jack Reed and centered around the Chicago and great lakes area, as well as New England and the rest of the American Northeast, The America First far right coalition with most support in the south based out of Atlanta, and the Pacific States of America who took this opportunity to secede.

The Second Weltkrieg of this universe is usually precipitated by Syndicalist France being the warmongers, wanting revenge for their defeat in the Weltkrieg. They prefer lightning armored warfare against the heavy infantry of the Germans. Sound familiar?

This game makes me thing that history is cyclical and that no matter which actor plays what, things are for the most part the same.

Roll the clock back further. During the founding days they voted as to what the official language of the USA would be. English won by one vote. Second was German. Think how different history would have been had we become a German speaking nation.

reply to post by oghamxx


I thought we had no official language? I thought English was just the lingua franca of America?

Originally posted by Mkoll
The Kaiserreich mod for the Hearts of Iron game Darkest Hour is basically what you described, where the Central Powers won the Weltkrieg (German for Worldwar). Germany is stronger than ever, Austria Hungary and the Ottoman Empire didn't collapse, even though they continue to have underlying structural problems. In the wake of their victory Russia is on the verge of being a failed state and doesn't really stabilize until the late 1930s, often only after a second soviet revolution (it usually fails) The unstable post war France and Britain both have socialist, or rather syndicalist, revolutions and things don't turn out nearly as bad for the citizens of Britain as they did in Soviet Russia in reality. France is a bit scary however, and seek to spread the light of syndicalism to the world. The British royalty are exiled to Canada and the French government to North Africa. They and South Africa are all that remains of the Entente Cordiale. Half of China exists under a German corporate state called Allgemeine Ostasiatische Gesellschaft and the other parts are ruled by the corrupt Qing Empire and various warlords. Germany owns the Suez Canal, Ceylon, Indochina, Malta, and many pacific islands. America, which did not participate in the Weltkrieg is in political disarray, being torn apart by both far right and far left elements. This ultimately leads to a 4 way civil war between the US Government, now under the dictatorship of MacArthur, the syndicalists lead by Jack Reed and centered around the Chicago and great lakes area, as well as New England and the rest of the American Northeast, The America First far right coalition with most support in the south based out of Atlanta, and the Pacific States of America who took this opportunity to secede.

The Second Weltkrieg of this universe is usually precipitated by Syndicalist France being the warmongers, wanting revenge for their defeat in the Weltkrieg. They prefer lightning armored warfare against the heavy infantry of the Germans. Sound familiar?

This game makes me thing that history is cyclical and that no matter which actor plays what, things are for the most part the same.

edit on 30-5-2012 by Mkoll because: (no reason given)

Wow. Interesting - very interesting post. I get the feeling you're right about history being cyclical, which is kind of depressing.

Originally posted by oghamxx
Roll the clock back further. During the founding days they voted as to what the official language of the USA would be. English won by one vote. Second was German. Think how different history would have been had we become a German speaking nation.

That, I did not know. Very interesting. It kind of boggles the mind thinking about that. Thanks for the post, dude.

Btw, Vlad the Impaler as avatar? That's macabre.

reply to post by Sachyriel


The holocaust wasn't aimed solely at Jews by any means - although they did take the brunt. Not arguing your points, more pointing out it is wrong to think of it in solely Jewish terms.

To the OP,

Interesting question and thread. There are many variables in this thinking but fundamentally, no, the Holocaust probably wouldn't have happened like it did. However, a Second World War would still have been inevitable, although the time scales and casualties may have widely different. Essentially, the Kaiser was a firm believer in the Junker class in Germany but more specifically in Prussia, where it was inextricably linked with the military class and the belief in military might. Therefore, even had Germany won the Great War, this desire for military expansionism would still be there. This in turn, would lead to conflict in which the European nations would have united against German strength.

Originally posted by Gauss

There's also the Nazis' Dolchstosslegende, or Stab-in-the-back myth, where they, basically, blamed Jews for the loss of the war, which was very prominent in their propaganda on the path to power over the Third Reich.

After the war, the banking system collapsed. People had to literally "shovel" money, to buy bread ... that is probably the basics of it. And this fact, enriched banks ... and the banks, were owned by Jews.

Or ... that is what you are led to believe, even by modern books.

But, is it true? if you take a look at the fact, that the people the Nazis murdered, were poor, outcasts. People they labelled as "lazy, not working, people who were led like sheep". Now, does that apply to anyone who later on claims to be of "royal blood", to have ben bankers, industrialists?

hardly.

What I am trying to tell you, that what occurred is merely that the nazis wanted to get rid of the lazy population of Germany, the ones who weren't "producing" and labelled them Jews. I'm not disputing they were Jews ... but I am disputing that they were the "Askenaski jews", as they are called today. Their jewish heritege, is greatly disputed.

The bottom line is, NO .... it doesn't matter who'd have won, just like the japanese labelled the chinese as "sick man of Asia", and even the US hammered hard on those who "didn't conform". Even in other European countries, dissidents and lazy people were put in assylums, and their brain carved out ... lobotomized, because they were seen as ... not human.

You may call it, Soylent green ... if you want to ... the problem is, we're still there. Now, it's just officers at an Air terminal calling muslim 1 year old children, piglets. And today, the peole are collecting outside the banks, and outside wall street ... with "occupy movements". Because it's all "the Jews fault". Because, basically we all know "Jews own the banks". They're all owned by "Silverstein", or "Bilderberg" ... or whoever ...

And we're still there ... we're not marshing against GW Bush ... we're not demanding that he'd be put on trial for massive children death in Iraq. We're not putting him, or his friend Dick on trial for defomred children being born in Iraq, because of massive use of depleted uranium. We're not turning them over to a trail in Haag, because of Guantanamo Bay ...

No, we're throwing rocks and demonstrating in front of the Banks, because the government used up all the cash, and the banks aren't giving us more ... so, it's the Jews fault, not GW Bush's fault.

How are you different from the Nazis? hmmm? If you'd start starving like the German people did, and if you had to watch your children, pay thousands of dollars for a loaf of bread ... you wouldn't hesitade in massacre the Jews, anymore than you Hesitate in sodimozing the Iraqis.

And that's a fact ...

reply to post by Gauss



The vote was by the delegates to the various conventions, what language would they speak and in what language would documents and minutes be printed in.

Don't get me going on Vlad. He has been grossly misrepresented, once framed by an opponent. He was cruel but so were others in that era.

IMO he saved Christianity (was once viewed as a saint by many Catholics) by repelling the Turks without a single loss of a soldier though confronted by an army 3 times his own. How? Impaled 20,000 along the Turks route into Wallachia. They turned around and went home. The impaled were mostly Turks but some old, lame, blind; etc. 'nonproducers'. He did not invent impaling, learned it from the Saxons in southern Transylvania. If you were a foreigner and did a crime in his domain he punished you according to the laws of your homeland. In that he was unique. Had he gone into battle with the Turks and even won (doubtful) he would have incurred losses which would have weaken his domain for a generation.

BTW Queen Elizabeth is a descendent of Vlad.

If interested read www.exploringromania.com...

reply to post by Flavian


In that alternate timeline I described Europe could not unite against Germany due to massive social unrest toppling governments. France became radical and syndicalist, Britain became isolationist trade unionists, Russia is crumbling, half of the Italian peninsula is owned by syndies allied with France and the other half is a Theocracy headed by the pope. There was social unrest in Germany as well, which captivated the attention of the Kaiser, preventing him from militaristic expansion even if he wanted to. And why should he want to when he now owns the majority of Europe's colonial possessions as well as the Suez Canal and half of China? I feel in such a position they would try to focus on economic dominance.

reply to post by oghamxx


I had no idea there were saxons in Transylvania. Quite strange. Were they foreigners in positions of nobility or was there a real population of them?

The wall street crash would have still have happened and even without the reparations to be paid the germans their economy after the first war would still have been really weak. so the german financial collapse would have still happened cotributing the the rise of hitler anyway

Originally posted by Gauss
I had this thought when I was talking to my girl, a sudden realization if you will, that if World War 1 had been won by the Kaiser and his German Empire - would World War 2, and the Holocaust, not have happened? Part of the reason why the Nazi Party came to power in Germany was the depression caused by the Versailles Treaty, which included an insane "fine" for the war, amounting to no less than approximately 442 billion US dollars in today's value. Quoting Wikipedia:

Of the many provisions in the treaty, one of the most important and controversial required Germany to accept responsibility for causing the war (along with Austria and Hungary, according to the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye and the Treaty of Trianon, respectively) and, under the terms of articles 231–248 (later known as the War Guilt clauses), to disarm, make substantial territorial concessions and pay heavy reparations to certain countries that had formed the Entente powers. In 1921 the total cost of these reparations was assessed at 132 billion Marks (then $31.4 billion or £6.6 billion, roughly equivalent to US $442 billion or UK £284 billion in 2012), a sum that many economists at the time, notably John Maynard Keynes, deemed to be excessive and counterproductive and would have taken Germany until 1988 to pay.[2][3] The final payments ended up being made on 4 October 2010,[4] the 20th anniversary of German reunification, and some 92 years after the end of the war for which they were exacted

There's also the Nazis' Dolchstosslegende, or Stab-in-the-back myth, where they, basically, blamed Jews for the loss of the war, which was very prominent in their propaganda on the path to power over the Third Reich. They essentially blamed anyone they did not like, including republicans, bolsheviks and socialists, but especially the jews, for the loss of the war, which most likely helped in inciting the tremendous hatred for jews that permeated Germany during and before World War 2. Dolschstosslegende

The stab-in-the-back myth (German: About this sound Dolchstoßlegende (help·info))[1] is the notion, widely believed in right-wing circles in Germany after 1918, that the German Army did not lose World War I but was instead betrayed by the civilians on the home front, especially the republicans who overthrew the monarchy. Advocates denounced the German government leaders who signed the Armistice on November 11, 1918, as the "November Criminals".

So, basically, I'm suggesting the case here for discussion, that, had Germany won World War 1 - could the Holocaust have been avoided? Or would it then instead have taken place in Britain, or maybe even America? Was the Holocaust "inevitable", in one country or another?

WW I and II happened for one simple reason : the capture- create a jewish state(WWI); and to forcefully migrate most of the ashkenazi jews to the new jewish state(WWII)


It wasn't so much the Versailles Treaty but more the Balfour Declaration. WWI was really won by the germans months into the conflict(there military was superior over the English). The Zionist who ran US and UK central banks promised England that they will suck in the US if they could be promised the land of Palestine. US rolled in ,no thanks the 2nd most progressive US president 'Wilson, and Germany lost. Understand before WWI Germany was loved by America. Which would make perfect sense,but months before US intervention , Zionist anti-german propaganda infested the US. So fast forward to the Balfour Declaration and it is here where the Germans for the first time noticed Zionist intervention. Its in the actual hearing where the Germans here Zionist delegates(which were not supposed to be present) vocally reminding the British delegates "remember Palestine". Instantly the Germans new they have been screwed by one of there own. But the Zionist new this and wanted this. They new migrating millions of jews to the middle east looked bleak.

Here comes WWII(or part 2)


The stigma of a holocaust , rounding up most anti-zionist jews and anti-zionist goyims would only work with massive camps designed to transport almost half of the german population. It was never half but that was the Zionist intent.


6million jews dead never happened. Actually the 6million # was well known in Germany well before WWII. It was the unemployment # for germans. And the Zionist new very well that Hitler moral was still high after WWII. Quickly , zionist propaganda in the UK/US spread stating Hitler killed 6million jews. Very smart by the Zionist. To actually kill 6million people, the Nazi's must have had thousands of camps filled with chambers and ovens, killing jews around the clock for 5 years strait. All the photos of malnourished jews (and non jews) were do to germany having no aid for almost 2 years, do to the blockade. Another propaganda tactic by the Zionist/Neocons.



Ps--And if I were you I would stay away from Wikipedia.