Grace Vs. Works

The age old debate....

The word Grace was never mentioned by Jesus... Though in the gospels it is said that Jesus had the "grace" of God...

Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


In total the word is mentioned 4 times within the gospels... On the other hand, Paul comes along and gives us the doctrine of "grace" which i believe is a complete white wash... An excuse or even a licence for people to do whatever they want... And as long as said person "believes" or has Faith in Jesus there is no condemnation.

Now personally i believe All will be saved......Though we all will face judgement for our actions or lack there of..... but this isn't about my beliefs...

So... This should be fun...

I will play Devils Advocate...

Faith without works is dead... Comming from a man that Knew Jesus personally... as opposed to Paul.

Feel free to debate the side of Grace...

reply to post by Akragon


Through Gods grace we are saved by Christ.

If you have faith but never work toward aquiring or accomplishing what you have faith in, it's dead in the water.

Just my opinion though. Temper everything with love and all will be ok.

Edit to add: Akragon, I just love your bouncing, happy cat and avatar.

reply to post by DaphneApollo



Paul says "do not associate with sinners"....

Is that love?

the same love that he preached when he said "Love is the whole of the law"?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by DaphneApollo

 

Paul says "do not associate with sinners"....

Is that love?

the same love that he preached when he said "Love is the whole of the law"?

Wasn't Christ admonished for having anything to do with sinners, prostitutes, lepers etc, and gave them a strong lesson in regards to their judgement of him by saying " If you're not sick, then you do not need a doctor." Meaning, I am here for the sinners, and if you're righteous keep believing that all the way to a very hot place.

Paul would be wrong wouldn't he? So no, what Paul said would not be love, would it.

Love should be the whole of the Law.

reply to post by DaphneApollo


very good my dear...

Well said!

You work because you are saved, not to get saved.

If you have no works well...


Know the tree by the fruit.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by DaphneApollo

 

Paul says "do not associate with sinners"....

Is that love?

the same love that he preached when he said "Love is the whole of the law"?

Can you post this verse where Paul said not to associate with sinners?

Originally posted by Klassified

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by DaphneApollo

 

Paul says "do not associate with sinners"....

Is that love?

the same love that he preached when he said "Love is the whole of the law"?

Can you post this verse where Paul said not to associate with sinners?

edit on 5/29/2012 by Klassified because: (no reason given)

1 Corinthians 5

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

reply to post by Akragon

1 Corinthians 5 9
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

These verses are very clear. He says not to keep company with someone who claims to be a Christian, and is guilty of these things. Then he says clearly that he has nothing to do with judging those outside of Christianity. But that God is their judge.

reply to post by Klassified


So instead of trying to help these people who "claim to be christian"... abandon them?

Would it not be better to attempt to turn these people from said ways

Perhaps they shouldn't keep these peoples company because they might be tempted to do as they do?

Does temptation shake a "true christian's faith"?

reply to post by Akragon

Paul speaks much about helping those who have problems, or have sin in their life. It is those who are unrepentant he has a problem with. Do a word search on "admonish" in the epistles.

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Romans 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

2 Thessalonians 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

reply to post by Akragon


Actually I think it has to do with tares in the wheat...

People claiming to be christian yet acting a different way etc...

Perhaps if the church was more judgmental towards its own as they are called to correct their own brethren in the bible, than the world would have a very different view towards Christians.

Jesus called the teachers of the faith of his time White washed tombs, and his greatest anger was towards those who would exploit the faithful.

Some times I look at the Jehovah Witness model of handling their own as perhaps the way it should be, they straight up kick out members who violate the faith, and if they want to come back they have to ... prove they are sorry for what they did.

Kind of harsh but they use the Paul Verses as the reason for it.


Just remembered the verse I was looking for.

Bibles also pretty clear how to handle these types of discussions about the faith, when one starts arguing for arguing sake.

Titus 3:9-11

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

reply to post by Klassified


It says "do not keep company with these people"

How does one "admonish" those he can't keep company with?

Email?

Originally posted by benrl
You work because you are saved, not to get saved.

If you have no works well...


Know the tree by the fruit.

So if people work BECAUSE they are saved, does that mean that The Atheists, The Agnostics, and The Satanists and Luciferians are saved too?

reply to post by arpgme


Perhaps you don't understand the meanings of the "work" I am referring to, good works, good fruit.

Any more on that and we risk derailing the thread and going into much deeper aspects of faith.

This is what happens when verses are taken out of context, and misunderstood. We have to weigh those teachings together. Jesus own words are often distorted because people don't look at the whole of what he taught. They want to pick and choose what they like or dislike. But I digress. I know you don't care for Paul, and that's fine. I'm just looking at his overall teaching, and tempering individual verses with that. So...

If you and others have tried to admonish them, and they won't have it, then keep your distance until they become repentant. I think Paul used the word "ashamed" in 2nd Thessalonians.

reply to post by Akragon


Paul destroys the idea that grace to is a liscense to sin in several epistles. So do the other NT authors. This isn't even a debate. People who claim otherwise are ignorant to scripture.

Originally posted by arpgme

Originally posted by benrl
You work because you are saved, not to get saved.

If you have no works well...


Know the tree by the fruit.

So if people work BECAUSE they are saved, does that mean that The Atheists, The Agnostics, and The Satanists and Luciferians are saved too?

By "work" he means the will and desire to do God's will.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Klassified

 

It says "do not keep company with these people"

How does one "admonish" those he can't keep company with?

Email?

You can still be their friends. We're not to fellowship with them. Fellowship (koinonia in Greek) implies a different level than mere friendship or aquaintence.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by arpgme

Originally posted by benrl
You work because you are saved, not to get saved.

If you have no works well...


Know the tree by the fruit.

So if people work BECAUSE they are saved, does that mean that The Atheists, The Agnostics, and The Satanists and Luciferians are saved too?

By "work" he means the will and desire to do God's will.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, is a part of God's will, no?