The Case for Conditional Personal Responsibility

I have heard people say absurdities like any deed you choose is your personal response and you must own up to it.

I agree with this to an extent. In a perfect world, we would master our emotions, but that world doesn't exist. There are many instances when owning up to our own actions is best, but there are plenty of times that people's buttons are pushed too often, too hard, and for too long to not reasonably expect negative repercussions.

I have done many wrong things in my life, and do my best to keep aware of these deeds, learn from them, and own up to them...I will tell people of my past if asked.

I have also had relationships with very twisted individuals. I have had psycho ex's who will deceive, manipulate, cheat, and then ditch...and expect you to just take it all without dishing anything their way. Hell no. If someone wrongs me sufficiently, they will hear my fury. If they gaslight me, I will not take responsibility for my deeds. I place the blame of fire on the fire-starter.

I think it's a copout to say that people are always responsible for their reactions. Not everyone is a saint, and there are people who can influence us to a considerable degree.

Meh, that's my rant.

You cannot control the actions of others. You can control your actions and reactions. Be a human. Control yourself.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
You cannot control the actions of others.

Control is an illusion. I'm after influencing people. If not the person directly, then their ability to manipulate further by marring their reputation.

You can control your actions and reactions.

Again, control is an illusion. I have influence over my actions and reactions, but no true control.

Be a human. Control yourself.

I was unaware that to be a human being, you had to control your self. It seems the two -- control and humanity -- have little to do with one another. Either that or humanity is non-existent.

A grown man can certainly control his actions. My ex-wife has offered me numerous provocations. Yet, I controlled my responses. I never hit her or abused her even verbally no matter how hot my anger grew. People say that birth control is necessary to avoid unwanted children. I say NO. Self control is necessary. If you do not want children, don't have sex. For example, I have been celibate since my divorce. That is over 4 years now. It is a choice. Control yourself, exercise personal responsibility or act like an animal. Animals cannot control themselves. They lack the cognitive ability to do so. Do you lack cognitive ability?

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
A grown man can certainly control his actions.

I must be one of those ungrown men Seriously, the way you're trying to manipulate me with these absolute assumptions is rather entertaining!

My ex-wife has offered me numerous provocations. Yet, I controlled my responses. I never hit her or abused her even verbally no matter how hot my anger grew.

That is your choice. If a bitch is acting like a bitch, I feel it is my right to let her know she is acting like a bitch. Not doing so is just....dumb.

People say that birth control is necessary to avoid unwanted children. I say NO. Self control is necessary. If you do not want children, don't have sex.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Birth control is a means to still enjoy the act of sex, without the repercussions of getting pregnant. It can still happen, but is unlikely. I have lots of sex, but don't use condoms or birth control. Pulling out has always worked for me (fingers crossed). I have enough self control to pull out a couple seconds before explosion.

For example, I have been celibate since my divorce. That is over 4 years now. It is a choice.

If you mean absolute celibacy, as in no release at all...that's more of a genetic/hormonal thing that control. I need to release at least once a day or I will feel as if I'm going to explode. It's natural, and neglecting to release will see a higher probability in prostate cancer. I'm not saying you got low T, I'm sure it's more complex than one simple chemical, but celibacy is not a reasonable choice for most people.

Control yourself, exercise personal responsibility or act like an animal.

We're all animals. We just like to feel as if we're somehow above them. We're not.

Animals cannot control themselves. They lack the cognitive ability to do so. Do you lack cognitive ability?

There is false assumptions, and illogical leaps of reasoning here. First off, IF all other animals can't control their selves, and it's because they lack the cognitive ability to do so, this in no way indicates that our case is the same.

Secondly, I think we have observed animals exert resistance to their instincts on numerous occasions. I think of it more like a hierarchy of instinctual drives, which are not perfectly balanced from creature to creature. You have this instinctual drive to "control" or to relegate other instinctual drives to subordinate in relation to things you have deemed of higher value.

I don't lack the cognitive ability to do this, and in fact am demonstrating the use of this here in this thread. I am relegating this supposed ideal belief of absolute personal responsibility to the back-burner for further contemplation. It has been superseded by intellect which point out obvious errs in the absolute assumption.

If someone wrongs me sufficiently, they will hear my fury. If they gaslight me, I will not take responsibility for my deeds. I place the blame of fire on the fire-starter. I think it's a copout to say that people are always responsible for their reactions. Not everyone is a saint, and there are people who can influence us to a considerable degree.

Not to be disrespectful, OP, but I completely disagree with your premise.

You talk like someone who often says "You made me do it". Nobody can MAKE you do anything, unless you choose not to exercise your strength of will. You may have gotten away with this type of thinking and reactionary behavior as a child, but as an adult, ANYTHING you do is your responsibility, no matter what. If you're hanging with people who push your buttons all the time, that is your fault for continuing to seek their company.

Our jails are full of people who claim that somebody made them do the crime and it was the fault of the victim....or as you say, the "fire-starter". You are no better than an animal if you cannot use your brain to control your actions. You can choose to extinguish the fire and exit the situation.

Your locus of control is external, which, in layman's terms, means that you blame everything that happens to you on external forces and other people. You are not simply a cork bobbing on the ocean, you are a sentient being who can control what you do and where you go.

Therefore, no matter what, you are responsible for everything you do. Own your actions, they belong exclusively to you.

Originally posted by FissionSurplus

If someone wrongs me sufficiently, they will hear my fury. If they gaslight me, I will not take responsibility for my deeds. I place the blame of fire on the fire-starter. I think it's a copout to say that people are always responsible for their reactions. Not everyone is a saint, and there are people who can influence us to a considerable degree.

Not to be disrespectful, OP, but I completely disagree with your premise.

That's cool. We can agree to disagree

You talk like someone who often says "You made me do it". Nobody can MAKE you do anything, unless you choose not to exercise your strength of will.

I will rarely say something like that, but it has been uttered, and I feel justified in the saying, and actions which came afterwards.

You may have gotten away with this type of thinking and reactionary behavior as a child, but as an adult, ANYTHING you do is your responsibility, no matter what. If you're hanging with people who push your buttons all the time, that is your fault for continuing to seek their company.

I'm 29. In my observation, many things which adults do go unchecked if they are not called out. Tsk, tsk.

Our jails are full of people who claim that somebody made them do the crime and it was the fault of the victim....or as you say, the "fire-starter". You are no better than an animal if you cannot use your brain to control your actions. You can choose to extinguish the fire and exit the situation.

Wait, what? You are saying that the "fire starter" is a victim do you know what the term gas-lighting means?? You seem terribly confused.

Your locus of control is external, which, in layman's terms, means that you blame everything that happens to you on external forces and other people. You are not simply a cork bobbing on the ocean, you are a sentient being who can control what you do and where you go.

Well, I guess you don't know me, but choose to assume a lot. Not sure there's much else to say, but...your choice.

Therefore, no matter what, you are responsible for everything you do. Own your actions, they belong exclusively to you.

I don't follow your reasoning, sorry.

By celibacy I mean refraining from sexual intercourse. I still have all of the normal urges that other heterosexual men have, I just choose not to act upon them. I control myself. Any "grown" person can choose to control their actions. The fact that you will not control your actions makes you childish. Children have real problems with self control until they are taught the necessity.
Pulling out will lead to accidents. After thousands of acts of intercourse, a "slip" was inevitable. Thus I now have children. They were not planned, but they are loved. The point is that actions have generally foreseeable consequences. It is better to avoid those actions that tend to have negative or undesirable consequences.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


From what I can tell, you are equating adulthood with being lame, and childhood with being an animal.

I see where your reasoning has merit, and where it falls short.

Not sure we're going to make ground at convincing each other, so will just say thanks for the responses, and perhaps others will see more value in them than I have.

Oh, and that image of maslov's heirarchy of needs is hilarious. If you truly believe I'm at the bottom ...geez, I think you need some help, bro!

This thread is a good example of the top of the pyramid in action!

reply to post by unityemissions

No, it isn't. Look at the second level. This thread is indicative of your struggle with morality. You are attempting to justify your actions though, deep down, you know they are immoral. You are, at least partially, on the first level struggling for the second. Good luck. You don't fail until you stop trying. You see "self control" as lame. It isn't. It removes all power that you believe others have over you. You currently ascribe you actions to others. This means that you have given them power over you. When you realize this truth, when you realize that no one controls you but you, you cast off many chains that you have allowed others to place on you. You can control yourself and your actions/reactions. You have only to choose to do so.

This is fun to see someone who thinks they know me better than I know myself!

Look, morality isn't as black and white as you seem to believe it is.

What I'm experiencing is cognitive dissonance, not feeling that my actions are immoral. They aren't. They are moral at a higher level than you can comprehend, it seems.

I don't see self control as lame. (please refrain from putting words in my mouth!). I see using this foolish ideal of absolute self control as but a means to lame out people when they should reasonably act towards a perceived evil towards them.

What you're describing is simply too black and white for the reality I see. Self control is not absolute. I have influence towards my actions to varying degrees depending on a multitude of factors involving the situation at hand. It's not an all or nothing thing. It's more like, what is best, truly, and how do I go about seeing this done?

Sometimes the best action is to walk away, self reflect, and decide to respond at a later time.

Sometimes the best action is to follow your heart, and let the SOB have a piece of your mind.

You don't agree. Fine.

We must have a very different mindset or something. We seem to be misinterpreting each other a bit.

Originally posted by unityemissions



Look, morality isn't as black and white as you seem to believe it is.

Yes. It is. There is absolute right and absolute wrong. When you allow gray, that is when evil begins to creep in to your life and psyche. Rejection of absolute wrong is what has brought us to slaughtering millions of babies, among other things. Accepting "conditional morality" is why we have crooked politicians raping our nation. It is why we have the USA supporting murderous dictators. Right is always right. Wrong is always wrong. Truth is always truth no matter how much you hate truth. When you compromise with evil, evil wins.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


Okay, I understand what I'm dealing with here...

I'm sorry, but your mind is far too....I'll just go with "left-brained" for me to deal with...

Morality is based on logic (the application of reason) and experiencing the human condition.

As no two people experiences or logical capacities are exactly identical, moral reasoning is naturally relative.



Last response to ya, buddy. You're just not on the level.

reply to post by unityemissions
I understand that real truth is beyond your capacity to understand atm. Believe me though, you can learn to control yourself. You just don't see it because you accept the lie of moral relativism.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


For those who claim we are not human if we cannot always maintain control without exception…has apparently has not had their limits tested further than their endurance *shrugs

If you have ever been forced into a situation that caused you to fight for your life, are you telling me that you would never ever err, and throw one more punch, pull the trigger one more time, etc etc than necessary in the heat of the moment? By DarthMuerte’s claim of being human with cognitive ability he would have to answer a resounding no, he would never ever go beyond what is absolutely necessary..and to do so would make you an animal.

It is a negative stigma for a woman to bear the title "divorced" (indicating failure). You were not able to keep one woman (who obviously loved you at some point) happy that she was willing to take on the degrading sigma to get away from you. Some might deem you less than human as well .... not sure you are the best guy to talk about cognitive abilities baby *wink

Originally posted by ScatterBrain
reply to post by DarthMuerte

 

For those who claim we are not human if we cannot always maintain control without exception…has apparently has not had their limits tested further than their endurance *shrugs

If you have ever been forced into a situation that caused you to fight for your life, are you telling me that you would never ever err, and throw one more punch, pull the trigger one more time, etc etc than necessary in the heat of the moment? By DarthMuerte’s claim of being human with cognitive ability he would have to answer a resounding no, he would never ever go beyond what is absolutely necessary..and to do so would make you an animal.

It is a negative stigma for a woman to bear the title "divorced" (indicating failure). You were not able to keep one woman (who obviously loved you at some point) happy that she was willing to take on the degrading sigma to get away from you. Some might deem you less than human as well .... not sure you are the best guy to talk about cognitive abilities baby *wink

Actually, our marriage was based on a lie. She purported to be someone she was not. The truth did not come out until her dad died. Then she told me she was a lesbian but she did not want to embarrass her dad. She did this knowing how much I detest homosexuality, and yes she knew my opinion before we married. For using me like that and wasting 10 years of my life, I certainly wanted to kill her. I did not. I have not even told our children the truth about their mother because I want them to continue to respect her. However, I did tell her that if she exposes the children to her "friend" that all bets are off and I will sue for full custody instead of joint custody.

You said,
"Actually, our marriage was based on a lie. She purported to be someone she was not. The truth did not come out until her dad died. Then she told me she was a lesbian but she did not want to embarrass her dad. She did this knowing how much I detest homosexuality, and yes she knew my opinion before we married. For using me like that and wasting 10 years of my life, I certainly wanted to kill her. I did not. I have not even told our children the truth about their mother because I want them to continue to respect her. However, I did tell her that if she exposes the children to her "friend" that all bets are off and I will sue for full custody instead of joint custody." (I have no clue why my quote button isn't working proper).

So you are admitting their was a flaw in your judgement? She lied and was able to carry that lie for 10 years? Wouldn't you say that your cognitive abilities lacked a little there? Part of cognitive abilities include emotional regulation, "wanted to kill her" doesn't sound like much regulation to me. All this judging about who is human and who are animals seems to me just a little hypocritical. *shrugs.
I am sorry you "wasted 10 years of your life", maybe you can rummage through it and see if there is anything you can find of value, so the loss isn't so devastating. good luck
Oh thanks for the Hierarchy of needs image, that made me laugh

reply to post by ScatterBrain
Yep, my failure was believing her lies and accepting her at face value. I did control myself by not killing her or beating her or taking the children from her. Though I did tell all of her family and friends the truth about our divorce. No reason to continue living a lie. I will tell the children when they are old enough to understand. Right now, they are not ready to know.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


Okay, I get it now. Morality must be absolute in your mind, else you would have committed acts like you mention in the post above.

I can understand people who need to keep to a certain strict code.

If it works for you, okay.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


You have right and wrong, then you have nessisary actions.
Ill give you an example.
Your in a bar and someone starts to attack you physically. you grab the nearest fork and attack him in your defence, you get his eye by accident. Now i dont agree it was the right thing to do, thats mucking up your moral compass. But it was nessisary for you to do and the other person is responsible for provoking you and thats a possible outcome.

Morals start to muck up when you say that action was right, i agree.
But in some instances its nessisary.