Poland - 'Kerry's Debate Stance was Immoral'????

Originally posted by RANT
In fact, I'm not letting this argument go until FlyersFan backs it up. Then I'd really like to see some effort to validate it's authenticity proactively by the poster. Not just post crap and run.

Now Rant. Get a hold of yourself. I politely asked if I could post a
link because I wasn't sure of the rules. I thought we weren't supposed
to post to other sites. AND I wasn't posting 'crap and running'. I
actually have a life and I don't spend the entire day sitting in front
of the computer with breathless anticipation of what to post next.

I was able to get on a short while this morning, and my daughter
(age 8) has severe asthma and was having major problems
breathing today. We have been taking care of my child's medical
situation.

www.freerepublic.com...

This is where the translation came from. He lists key words to
google. I am at this point googling and checking up on what this
person says is the translation. (I don't speak Polish, so I'm
looking for other English translations)

Yes Rant. It is a right wing site, so I'm sure you'll be miserable
about that. However, if they are right, it is newsworthy.

Jemison,

His replys were very clear to me during the debate. I agree with you about every thing you said about the terrorist. I dont agree that JK has changed his opinion any more on Iraq than GB. JK did change his opinion on the war, but only after reading the correct intelligence reports. Dont forget, JK's initial judgment was the same as GB's with the initial faulty intelligence. However, when the truth about the intel came out, and the real intel was brought forward, thats when JK changed his opinion. There is a lot at stake here, and I personally dont like either of them, but I would like to give someone else a chance to run this country, and *just for laughs* I dont like Dubbua's beady little eyes

Okay, here is a different site that has the original Polish
next the the English translation. The author just lists
it as 'a document'. I don't see where it says which
Polish news paper it came from.

I'm still looking ..... I'll be back with more ....

www.right-thinking.com...

info.onet.pl...

This is the original polish on-line site.
This was carried in the polish newspapers.
It's all in polish, if you want the english
translation next to the polish, go to my
previous post at the 'right thinking' site.

Originally posted by RANT
Must have just not seen this before logging off.

But there's no reason to not post a link to an article, or even a link to a post on another board that's being quoted as supportive content. That's fine. Required actually, most likely by that board's TAC as well.

No Rant, I didn't see your post before logging off. I'm a mom of a
little 8 year old girl with severe asthma. When she starts coughing
and choking ... the computer goes off, and we go to the dr/hospital.

I wasn't sure about posting a link in this case. The link I would have
been posting was to another chat place and I thought that was
against the rules, (I read something about advertising other sites??)
so that's why I asked first before posting it. I figured I'd rather ask
and have someone say 'okay' then post it and have someone get
all worked up about it and say I did something wrong.
I was being careful.

Originally posted by RANT
I really think you've got a smoking gun here this time FlyersFan. You could win it for Bush if only we could just get this story out.

No Rant. No smoking gun. Just something interesting.
I doubt the liberal press would pick it up though. It's already
yesterday's news. Well, actually .... yesterday's yesterday's news.

Just something interesting to talk about.

Nothing wrong with posting links to FreepNet. I do it all the time.

And it certainly helps clarify the situation to see the chain of translation back from the orginal. That hard work on your part is duly noted.

So it was a forum member of Right-Thinking that provided the translation of the polish article, parts of which made it on to FreeRepublic then here.

Here's some of the substantial portions of the interview that have so far been left out of the repost at Freeper as well as here:

Prezydent uchyli� si� od odpowiedzi na pytanie, z kt�rym z kandydat�w w ameryka�skich wyborach sympatyzuje.

President declined to answer with which candidate in this American election he sympathizes.

...and...

�Ja po prostu patrz� na to, co si� dzieje, i zachowuj� nale�yty szacunek dla demokracji ameryka�skiej. Wierz�, �e kto nie by�by prezydentem Stan�w Zjednoczonych, w kwestiach zar�wno irackich, jak i polsko- ameryka�skich, b�dzie zachowywa� si� odpowiedzialnie� - podkre�li�.

�I simply observe what�s happening and maintain all due respect for the American democracy. I believe that whoever becomes the next American president will behave responsibly with respect to the Iraqi and the Polish-American matters� � he underlined.

..and...

Doda� jednak, �e nale�y odr�ni� rzeczywiste intencje od walki i temperatury wyborczej, kt�ra w Stanach Zjednoczonych wcale nie jest ni�sza ni� w Polsce.

He added however that one has to differentiate actual intentions from the electoral fight and temperature, which in the United States is not lower than in Poland.

....and...

Prezydent doda� jednak, �e trzeba wzi�� pod uwag�, i� jest to kampania wyborcza.

President added however that it is understandable during a presidential campaign.

...and...

�Traktujmy to z dystansem. W kampanii wyborczej padaj� r�ne s�owa, kt�re niekoniecznie trzeba rozumie� dos�ownie� - zauwa�y�.

�Let�s treat it from a distance. In an electoral campaign, many words are said that not necessarily should be interpreted verbatim� � he noted.

You'll pardon me I do hope for wanting all the information, not just half.

Beyond those major omissions to the repost, other important ones seem to have occured between translation and repost to FreeRepublic as well.

FreeRepublic quotes one paragraph as two:

�That�s why we are disappointed that our stance and ultimate sacrifice of our soldiers are so diminished�, President Kwasniewski commented Kerry�s speech during the debate.

�Perhaps Mr Kerry, continues Kwasniewski, thinks about the coalition with Germany and France, countries which disagreed with us on Iraq.

Leaving out:

�In this respect � added Kwasniewski � we can say we are disappointed that our stance and the sacrifice of those soldiers are so marginalized. But I blame this on the electoral campaign and a certain message, which may not have been expressed by senator Kerry directly � that he thinks higher of a coalition that would include France and Germany together with the USA. Thus including those who said �no� to the Iraqi matters.�

Obviously fabricating and attributing words to the the President of Poland he didn't say to transition the omission like "�Perhaps Mr Kerry, continues Kwasniewski..."

Now that's truly shameful if not immoral on the part of Freeper Matthew Paul including this fabrication:

"Kerry's stance during debate immoral", says President of Poland

...and this...

According to poll research centers, Poland is the only European country where President Bush would win the election. What�s more, it would be a landslide victory.

Neither of which appear in the actual article.

The very title of the repost is a lie both on Freeper and sadly here. :shk:

But I'm most pleased now to see that the President of Poland is a reasonable, measured person that did not directly call Senator Kerry "immoral" despite what those that support Bush to the fault of misrepresenting the words and position of a foreign leader are willing to do.

This kind of behavior is more than routine at FreeRepublic and it gives me great delight to see the 319 cheerleading response posts over there as of now saying they are forwarding the faulty repost to news outlets everywhere, posting it on other boards and wondering why oh why they can't get this message out to MSM (mainstream media). :shk:

I humbly submit part of the problem has always been and continues to be the gleeful efforts of some of the finer smear mongering net nuts to always suppress half the story, misquote, misrepresent and above all else embrace ignorance.

Thank you again FlyersFan for helping bring AboveTopSecret ALL THE STORY and debunk this Freeper fabrication before it hits a chain mail near you.

Rant, thanks for getting to the bottom of this. Nice to have the whole story!

Jemison

Edited to correct name! My hubbys name is Rantz so naturally I'm in the habit of typing that! Sorry.

[edit on 2-10-2004 by Jemison]

Originally posted by RANT
I humbly submit part of the problem has always been and continues to be the gleeful efforts of some of the finer smear mongering net nuts to always suppress half the story, misquote, misrepresent and above all else embrace ignorance.

Fine work Rant! Worthy of a mod at ATS!!

I for one always like to see the truth win out. Perhaps you could use your influence to get some other folks to deny ignorance and back up what they say.

Two thumbs up!!

Originally posted by Seth Bullock

Originally posted by RANT
I humbly submit part of the problem has always been and continues to be the gleeful efforts of some of the finer smear mongering net nuts to always suppress half the story, misquote, misrepresent and above all else embrace ignorance.

Fine work Rant! Worthy of a mod at ATS!!

I for one always like to see the truth win out. Perhaps you could use your influence to get some other folks to deny ignorance and back up what they say.

Two thumbs up!!

Seth, I realize you're probably being more than just a little sarcastic on some of the above points than I care to think about...

Which is fine. I do enjoy the challenge from a gifted individual such as yourself.

But having just now glanced at the first post of each link you gave how exactly would you have me investigate poster opinion or request a link source for assertions like Bush embarrassed me saying folks and Cheney will win the debate because he's evil and additional speculative nonsense like he's behind Al Qaeda too.

Now were the posts "Sanitation Czar of Costa Rica Calls Cheney Flatfooted" I'd have something to debunk or clarify. I'll be going through the threads now to see if false claims (not opinion) are being made, but I suspect the posters' opinions are getting pretty well beat up as it is by disagreeing members using some colorful language of their own. Has "ambulance chaser" showed up yet referring to Edwards? It's just fine if it does you know.

A similar opinion thread saying "I find Kerry's debate stance immoral" or even this one of some of the President of Poland's comments is just fine, but it needed a link to back up the content. It was never in danger of being removed or altered from a mod standpoint because of my disagreement with the assertions as a poster. Though my suspicions and request for clarification may carry more perceived weight as a mod, I'd hope any other poster would request a link to a reported news item as well.

As to the other threads you cite, I understand your dislike of the colorful language some use (sometimes seriously and sometimes satirically) in expressing their personal opinions, but there's no need for political correctness about it (is there)? I happen to get a kick out of some jingoism from the right as well as dish my own share from the left (as you are undoubtably aware). Though we're doing our best to keep all that out of the onging debate at Campaign 2004 Issues.

Journalism standards are different though when posting quotations and reporting new articles. Though noone here posted anything knowingly false, it was being posted on ATS as a factual news item and deserved clarification.

But again, as to your request I cautiously reiterate I'll see what I can do.

Well I certainly appreciate that Rant. Perhaps I am getting less tolerant of fools and ignorance in my old age. You are welcome to come to ID and post any time. In fact, I am looking for someone to debate domestic issues with prior to the "official debate"...

BTW, I would also venture a guess that you have never even come close to a one line post warning in you life, have you?

Poland is not a reliable ally. In autumn or spring there will be elections there and all significant parties agree that Polish troops should retreat from Iraq; the Polish community agrees with it. So we can be sure that soon after Parliament elections Polish troops will leave Iraq.

Originally posted by RANT
That hard work on your part is duly noted.

�Traktujmy to z dystansem.

�Let�s treat it from a distance.

But I'm most pleased now to see that the President of Poland is a reasonable, measured

Thank you again FlyersFan for helping bring AboveTopSecret ALL THE STORY and debunk this Freeper fabrication before it hits a chain mail near you.

Thank you for the applause. I don't think I've been applauded
before. I'm fairly new here and honestly, I'm getting used to how
things are run. From what I can tell, we bring stories and
articles and emails here and present them for discussion. That
way everyone can get involved and we can all get to the bottom
of things and see if what is being said is truth, or falsehood.
(unless I've missed something - that's what we do here, right?)

I like the above quote from the Polish president. He said to treat
the American campaign - FROM A DISTANCE. I sure wish all the
European countries would do this. China too. Stay out of our
business and let us do our own election thing without interference.
Sadly, foreign powers have always tried to influence our elections.
I LIKE the president of Poland. I think he is a good man with a
good heart.

Oh Rant - to answer your question. Emily is now stable. Thanks for
asking. She isn't as bad off as she was, but she's still not what I'd consider 'good'. Her peak flow is still in the in the low yellow range. It's
all frightening for me. She's our only child. When we adopted
her in Bolivia, she had caught double pneumonia and Hep A, along
with a slew of other things in the orphanage. I can't help but
wonder if her having severe double pneumonia when she was a
baby caused her asthma now. I'm trying to educate myself on
asthma and breathing problems, and the meds that are used to
treat them. YIKES! It's a lot to try to wrap my head around.

I know that Rant put this to rest but look what popped up on drudge!

POLISH PRESIDENT SLAMS KERRY AFTER DEBATE SNUB

Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski has slammed Dem president hopeful John Kerry for not recognizing Poland's contributions and sacrifice to the war in Iraq.

"It is sad that a senator with 20 years of experience does not recognize Polish contribution. This is immoral," Kwasniewski told FACTS in an interview commenting on the US Presidential Debate.

"It is sad that a senator with 20 years of experience underestimates Polish sacrifice, this is sad."

The Polish President added however that one should consider this was a part of the ongoing electoral campaign.

"I do not think this was out of ignorance," the president emphasized on the TVN Facts.

Jemison