A Message of Clarification

This is probably a bit of a selfish thread as it mainly concerns my beliefs and my point of view regarding Christianity. But please feel free to contribute if you think you can stay civil and not get caught up in the wave of Christian bias that often seems to overwhelm this site.

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I would like to make it clear that while I have, as can be seen from my prior posts some issue with the accuracy of the Bible itself; I personally do not doubt that Jesus himself existed.. I think that there is more than enough evidence he not only existed, but was probably the most enlightened man on the planet at the time.

This thread I guess is mainly directed at many of the Christian posters on this site; as well as those who may read my posts and believe that I am somehow anti-Christian. And I would also love to hear form those who share similar sentiments to me.

I have the greatest of respect for Jesus and his message of love given freely at a time and place when the majority of men still believed that some bitter OT God or some sort of Greek style pantheon of deities ruled over them. A man who stood by his message of love to the death is a person we can all learn something from. Love thy neighbor as ye love thyself is one of the most beautiful sentiments there is, and if we all followed this rule then there would really be no need for any other rules.

I guess sometimes I get carried away when it comes to Christianity as I myself being a pagan (spiritual pantheist to be precise - though I did grow up with a very heavy Wiccan influence through my family) have over the years suffered somewhat at the hands of those who claim to be the messengers of Jesus but instead only come with messages of bigotry and judgment. So for that I am sorry but no doubt I may get carried away again.

But I do take issue with those who believe that a completely literal interpretation of the Bible somehow excuses their condemnation of certain minority groups, or the taking of another’s rights is somehow mandated by their belief systems despite the fact that others do not share this belief. I also have issue with those who believe that somehow scriptures which in many cases date back thousands of years somehow negate the knowledge that science has given us. For no matter how inspired or full of spirit the authors of the Bible may have been, the fact is they simply did not have access to the information which we are privy to today.

I also believe that Jesus was only one of many enlightened thinkers who have and will walk this Earth, and I think that that by concentrating on one belief system in particular, especially to the exclusion of all others or any other contrary point of view you in fact are doing yourself a disservice. Christianity imho is merely one facet upon the gem of ultimate truth and to ignore other forms of spirituality you in fact cut yourself off from many valuable sources of information regarding the true nature of the universe.

For ultimately as humans we all want the same thing – a world of peace and harmony, and the Truth, whatever that may be….

Love and Light

1littlewolf

excellent post friend!
we have the same kinda background,except i wasn't raised in a 'religious' house,so i guess that helped me discover my own spiritual path,including mysticism,magick,wicca,and yes even studying the mainstream religions.
i too study the teachings of the christ including all of the 'banned' gospels(nag hammadi,dead sea scrolls etc...)
there is an old saying in magick - if you want to perform the miricles of the christ,you have to do the works of the christ"!
this is very true. i wish more christians would be more 'christ like!' instead of badmouthing other people's beliefs.
in general,i know much more about christianity than most of the 'christians' i have met!!!
love thy neighbor.... has all but been forgotten!
i think if the christ DID come back(not holding my breath!) he would be appalled at what has become of his teachings,and deem it blasphemy!!!
the fact that people call him 'god' is against every thing he believed in,and in his time,he would have been stoned to death having said anything like that!
he said he was the son of man. pilate asked him if he was the son of god,and jesus replied "so say you!"
keep learning friend and leave the wolves in sheeps clothing to fight among themselves!
peace

Originally posted by reficul
excellent post friend!

we have the same kinda background,except i wasn't raised in a 'religious' house,so i guess that helped me discover my own spiritual path,including mysticism,magick,wicca,and yes even studying the mainstream religions.
i too study the teachings of the christ including all of the 'banned' gospels(nag hammadi,dead sea scrolls etc...)
there is an old saying in magick - if you want to perform the miricles of the christ,you have to do the works of the christ"!
this is very true. i wish more christians would be more 'christ like!' instead of badmouthing other people's beliefs.
in general,i know much more about christianity than most of the 'christians' i have met!!!

love thy neighbor.... has all but been forgotten!
i think if the christ DID come back(not holding my breath!) he would be appalled at what has become of his teachings,and deem it blasphemy!!!

the fact that people call him 'god' is against every thing he believed in,and in his time,he would have been stoned to death having said anything like that!
he said he was the son of man. pilate asked him if he was the son of god,and jesus replied "so say you!"
keep learning friend and leave the wolves in sheeps clothing to fight among themselves!

peace

The behavior of Christians bothers both you and the OP but then you rattle off the same worn out cliches- "Christians being more Christlike", "Calling Him God...", "If Jesus DID come back (not holding my breath)".
Do you see that these statements are an attack on the fundamental beliefs of most Christians?
You are participating in the exact behavior that you despise in Christians. But no one holds your feet to the fire or calls you out on accountability. Why do you suppose that is so?
Could it be that you use our deity as a reference for our behavior but discount everything else that comes with the package?
Granted, there are "Christians" that are complete psychopaths. But you have that in every religion.

reply to post by 1littlewolf

I guess sometimes I get carried away when it comes to Christianity as I myself being a pagan (spiritual pantheist to be precise - though I did grow up with a very heavy Wiccan influence through my family) have over the years suffered somewhat at the hands of those who claim to be the messengers of Jesus but instead only come with messages of bigotry and judgment. So for that I am sorry but no doubt I may get carried away again.

I can speak to this based on my own experience in life. It's easy--far to easy--to dismiss the emotional surge the wells up from inside when confronting truth. It's even easier to mistake the subject for the object. The messengers of Jesus can only reflect the light of the mirror. The person who sees themselves in the reflection judges himself. The Christan can never judge another person if the message is true. Truth judges by what it brings into the light. It's the same with light itself. Light is not visible. Only what light hits becomes visible.

It's good to see there are others here who share a similar point of view to me.

And I really like this quote you've posted

Originally posted by reficul
there is an old saying in magick - if you want to perform the miricles of the christ,you have to do the works of the christ"!

Thanks so much for sharing...

reply to post by micmerci


this is no attack on christians,just personal experiences! i don't go door to door trying to convert strangers to my beliefs. i dont brainwash native peoples into following my ways. i dont wage wars against peoples of different faiths,
killing innocent people in the name of my god!
how come christians don't like to talk about the inquisition?
the jews are more than happy to educate people about the holocaust,but the atrocities of the christian inquisition are 'tabboo!'
hundreds of thousands of people slaughtered in the name of 'god'!!!
i will give the priests one thing,they developed very unique ways of torture!!!

any way i don't preach my beliefs,but if you asked me about it,i'd be happy to discuss.
jesus asked his deciples to 'spread the good news' (which was actually a more pure form of Judaism)
i don't recall the part of the N.T. where he said to condemn,torture,and kill those who dont follow his teachings!
'render unto ceasar that which is ceasars!'
not everyone believes in christianity,but i guess those of us who don't will all go to hell!
thanx any way,but i don't want to be saved

Originally posted by micmerci

The behavior of Christians bothers both you and the OP but then you rattle off the same worn out cliches- "Christians being more Christlike", "Calling Him God...", "If Jesus DID come back (not holding my breath)".
Do you see that these statements are an attack on the fundamental beliefs of most Christians?

I'm sorry you see my thread as some sort of attack. I viewed it more as an olive branch of someone who holds a different belief to yours but at the same time has a great respect for the founder of your religion. Please show me the same respect.

As for your statement about 'most Christians', who exactly do you include in that? For the branches of Christianity are numerous and stretch all the way from your progressives down to the Catholic Church and back up to your Westboro Baptists types

Could it be that you use our deity as a reference for our behavior but discount everything else that comes with the package?

The deity should be the only reference. There should be no other 'package'.

Granted, there are "Christians" that are complete psychopaths. But you have that in every religion.

Indeed you have it in all aspects of life. 'Crazy' is not just confined to a certain belief system.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Thanks Enoch, it's actually the banter between you and I in that gospel of Jesus thread that inspired me to write this. Originally it was going to be just a response. Hopefully you understand it was not personal....

At least now you know where I'm coming from.

Originally posted by reficul
reply to post by micmerci

 

this is no attack on christians,just personal experiences! i don't go door to door trying to convert strangers to my beliefs. i dont brainwash native peoples into following my ways. i dont wage wars against peoples of different faiths,
killing innocent people in the name of my god!
how come christians don't like to talk about the inquisition?
the jews are more than happy to educate people about the holocaust,but the atrocities of the christian inquisition are 'tabboo!'
hundreds of thousands of people slaughtered in the name of 'god'!!!
i will give the priests one thing,they developed very unique ways of torture!!!

any way i don't preach my beliefs,but if you asked me about it,i'd be happy to discuss.
jesus asked his deciples to 'spread the good news' (which was actually a more pure form of Judaism)
i don't recall the part of the N.T. where he said to condemn,torture,and kill those who dont follow his teachings!

'render unto ceasar that which is ceasars!'
not everyone believes in christianity,but i guess those of us who don't will all go to hell!

thanx any way,but i don't want to be saved

Please reficul lets keep this civil. No one is burning witches anymore. Keep in mind that your ancestors were Christians too and would have been the very same ones who participated in these actions....

You cannot blame someone for the actions done by others in the very distant past in the name of their belief system.

You can only learn from it.

I have a big problem with the Christian viewset since parts of it is filled with duality hate, an egodriven god and judgement for things that are not bad.

I have read some of Jesus message and I find it very similar to Buddhas but not the whole picture as the view I have. Why do humans give god a hateful ego? Do you really belive that if a person is a wonderful Buddist that lives in harmony with his fellow man that he will go to hell for not recognising Jesus as the way. If you mean Christ Conciousness/holy spirit is the way then it can be reached from many different directions. It is like saying you can only walk to Rome from the south on one leg to get to Rome. Just because you belive it and it is printed in a book about spiritual knowledge does not make it true.

God is better than that and from my point of view people who say that Jesus is the only way is badmouthing god to the core. God built a really good test for humanity. Can we look thru our ego views and seek knowledge all over the world? Because by combining the different views of gods wisdom we can truly find the whole within.

The ones who only look at one view is driven by ego and fear of the unknown. By fearing the unknown they are fearing both god/wisdom and salvaltion. The only thing to fear is ignorance.

Originally posted by 1littlewolf

Originally posted by reficul
reply to post by micmerci

 

this is no attack on christians,just personal experiences! i don't go door to door trying to convert strangers to my beliefs. i dont brainwash native peoples into following my ways. i dont wage wars against peoples of different faiths,
killing innocent people in the name of my god!
how come christians don't like to talk about the inquisition?
the jews are more than happy to educate people about the holocaust,but the atrocities of the christian inquisition are 'tabboo!'
hundreds of thousands of people slaughtered in the name of 'god'!!!
i will give the priests one thing,they developed very unique ways of torture!!!

any way i don't preach my beliefs,but if you asked me about it,i'd be happy to discuss.
jesus asked his deciples to 'spread the good news' (which was actually a more pure form of Judaism)
i don't recall the part of the N.T. where he said to condemn,torture,and kill those who dont follow his teachings!

'render unto ceasar that which is ceasars!'
not everyone believes in christianity,but i guess those of us who don't will all go to hell!

thanx any way,but i don't want to be saved

Please reficul lets keep this civil. No one is burning witches anymore. Keep in mind that your ancestors were Christians too and would have been the very same ones who participated in these actions....

You cannot blame someone for the actions done by others in the very distant past in the name of their belief system.

You can only learn from it.

edit on 27/5/2012 by 1littlewolf because: (no reason given)

Belief systems are supposed to evolve as all knowledge/wisdom and questioned. If it does not the belief dies out. Everything evolves and changes until it is perfect for all enviroment/situations. I love gods way of teaching what is in the mini is also in the macro. What an increadable ingenious creation he/she/it has made. I might have an issue with the human race unabilty to change quickly from their indoctrination. But this planet is so perfect in its beauty and nature. And the universe outside looks so nice that I want to fly away and experiance it all.

Originally posted by reficul
reply to post by micmerci

 

this is no attack on christians,just personal experiences! i don't go door to door trying to convert strangers to my beliefs. i dont brainwash native peoples into following my ways. i dont wage wars against peoples of different faiths,
killing innocent people in the name of my god!
how come christians don't like to talk about the inquisition?
the jews are more than happy to educate people about the holocaust,but the atrocities of the christian inquisition are 'tabboo!'
hundreds of thousands of people slaughtered in the name of 'god'!!!
i will give the priests one thing,they developed very unique ways of torture!!!

any way i don't preach my beliefs,but if you asked me about it,i'd be happy to discuss.
jesus asked his deciples to 'spread the good news' (which was actually a more pure form of Judaism)
i don't recall the part of the N.T. where he said to condemn,torture,and kill those who dont follow his teachings!

'render unto ceasar that which is ceasars!'
not everyone believes in christianity,but i guess those of us who don't will all go to hell!

thanx any way,but i don't want to be saved

I do none of these things as well, yet I profess Christianity. The establishment of the religion does not equal it's sum parts. We are not all bible-thumping, door-knocking, fire and brimstone ranting, maniacs. However, I do think it is fair to say that the comments about the tenets of my faith that you have made do equal "Christian" comments of other faiths that disturbs you.
I don't see the thread as an attack- I am not a hypersensitive Christian with a victim mentality. My position is, if my deity is all powerful, He can take care of Himself, He doesn't need me to defend Him. I just see your statements exhibiting the same behavior as some so called Christians. That is all.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
I have a big problem with the Christian viewset since parts of it is filled with duality hate, an egodriven god and judgement for things that are not bad.

I do it all the time but you cannot put Christians all in the same box. Many Christians I have met have been some of the most snooty judgemental types I have ever encountered. But then some of friends belong to more progressive churches and they are some of the most beautiful people I know.

I think this is a more a reflection on the person rather than the belief

Why do humans give god a hateful ego? Do you really belive that if a person is a wonderful Buddist that lives in harmony with his fellow man that he will go to hell for not recognising Jesus as the way.

Some can only conceive of God as being like themselves…

God built a really good test for humanity. Can we look thru our ego views and seek knowledge all over the world? Because by combining the different views of gods wisdom we can truly find the whole within.

My view exactly

The ones who only look at one view is driven by ego and fear of the unknown. By fearing the unknown they are fearing both god/wisdom and salvaltion. The only thing to fear is ignorance.

Fear = Ignorance. Few people if any are truly evil. I think most of the problems you see around the world today are due to people reacting out of fear due to ignorance

Belief systems are supposed to evolve as all knowledge/wisdom and questioned. If it does not the belief dies out.

This is my issue with those who hold an unwavering belief that the Bible must be taken literally. It contains many beautiful messages but was written by imperfect men in a very different time and place to that which we find ourselves today

Everything evolves and changes until it is perfect for all enviroment/situations. I love gods way of teaching what is in the mini is also in the macro. What an increadable ingenious creation he/she/it has made. I might have an issue with the human race unabilty to change quickly from their indoctrination. But this planet is so perfect in its beauty and nature. And the universe outside looks so nice that I want to fly away and experiance it all.

Again this is my view exactly. Everything is perfect, we just have to realize it….

reply to post by apushforenlightment


Do you think that Christianity is the only religion that has established a specific protocol for salvation? For Christianity, Christ is the path. What about Islam? What if you do not adhere to their path? What is the result? Buddhism claims several paths to enlightenment. That is their protocol.
Hell is a Christian concept- in the literal sense, so it naturally follows that is where non-adherents will end up.
My point in all of this is that you outlined what it is that Christians believe and if they are going to follow what they believe then it is expected that they believe that Christ is the only way. We are all ultimately responsible for our own souls, so why not let each believe what they wish and what they find as "truth"?

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by apushforenlightment

 

Do you think that Christianity is the only religion that has established a specific protocol for salvation? For Christianity, Christ is the path. What about Islam? What if you do not adhere to their path? What is the result? Buddhism claims several paths to enlightenment. That is their protocol.
Hell is a Christian concept- in the literal sense, so it naturally follows that is where non-adherents will end up.
My point in all of this is that you outlined what it is that Christians believe and if they are going to follow what they believe then it is expected that they believe that Christ is the only way. We are all ultimately responsible for our own souls, so why not let each believe what they wish and what they find as "truth"?

Buddhism can be seen more like a librery of wisdom and frankly I do not see Buddhist saying their way is the only way. They give suggestions on spiritual enlightment but it is up to the student to grow and find the thruth within. If they are saying they are the only way then they do not get what Buddha is saying. A buddist is supposed to become egoless and se thru the dualistic nature of reality. Above is my viewpoint of Buddhism but maybe I am seeing it thru the eyes of love and not how it is really is percieved by it's followers.

Islam is as caught up in duality viewset as Christians if not worse (as a whole, there are people who understand ego and duality).

Maybe the reason why I am pushing their beliefs is that I want them to really find the thing inside and not just a "meeting place" where they play around with their belifs. I might be wrong and I hope I am so that all humans can connect to the otherside and recieve the holy spirit and can experiance harmonious bliss. But I fear that they will not since the knowledge of Chakra is in the Hinduistic religon and not in the Christian religon, so the Christians might not seek thru meditation (being one with god thru prayer from the Christian viewpoint).

Above is what I think based on the information I have and that is sometimes limited.

ok, i'm gonna try to give this a shot,without trying to ruffle ANYONES feathers.
i get accused a lot about being anti christian. this is totally incorrect.
i am anti ignorance.
first of all i do believe the christ lived,walked the earth,and died.(how or when he died is still unknown to me,there is a lot of speculation he escaped the crucifiction)
as for his miraculous birth, well its well known that many other 'gods' for thousands of years before,had the same miraculous birth,including mithra, the god of the romans.(coincidence?)
mithra also had 12 'disciples'.
some people even speculate that jesus was the SUN of god,and his 12 disciples were the 12 signs of the zodiac.
at jesus birth the earth went into the sign of Pisces,which may explain why the early christian symbol was the fish.
in the egyptian book of the dead talks of turning water in to wine,walking on water,and even parting the waters of the nile. this 'book' was written long before jesus and moses.
what about the epic of Gilgamesh from sumeria where there is a very similar story to that of moses and his reed basket.
i could start a whole other thread explaining the many inconsistencies the bible has,but thats looking for trouble!
i guess what i'm trying to say is i try to research a topic,and i just don't take information at face value as truth.
like seeing a picture of christ in my toast!!! (how does anyone know what he looked like?
:puz
i don't attack unless i'm under attack. period. but i try to shed a bit of light on other possible truths that there may be.
whats easier to believe,a god born of a virgin,performing miracles,dying,and rising from the dead 3 days later, OR,
a spiritually awaken man who wanted to spread peace and love and get back to the true roots of his belief,started the beggining of an uprising with the locals,asked his people to to sell their belongings for weopons,wanted rome out of his country,and was possibly crucified for his trouble(what the romans did to political dissidents). personally,i'll go with the latter theory. but if your faith is what keeps you content,well i respect that as well.
peace