Androgyny as a Non Gender Spiritual Concept

When I watched the movies 'The Crying Game' and 'Stargate' many years ago I was really moved by the images of Jaye Davidson. At first I thought it was some kind of sexual perversion or deviancy - that I was a straight man who really enjoyed the sight of feminine (or androgynous) males. Here is an image of Jaye from 'Stargate'



Then years later I saw Hilary Swank play a gender bending role in the movie 'Boys don't Cry'. Again I felt something strongly attractive about her image. This is a recent photo of Hilary, not the movie version.



Recently there has been a lot of talk about a young emerging model from Australia called Andrej Pejic. He is the first model ever to work in both male and female fashion shows. His looks are simply breath-taking.



I have now reached the conclusion that it is not a sexual propensity I'm feeling when I view these images or see these people, and others like them, act or model. It is far more profound than a simple case of primal urge (the id).

For me androgyny has become a representation of the NO SEX being - for me these figures are neither male nor female. They are gender-less. They are what God would have created if gender was not required for survival of our species on this planet. A pure race of beings unencumbered by the obligations and duties of fitting in to a particular gender role.

Of course Spirit is without gender. The true nature of being transcends all human characteristics. So I think what I am feeling is heightened pleasure at seeing a physical representation of Spirit in this Earth realm.

Before I sign off, I should state that what I am feeling has nothing to do with the union of male and female, masculine and feminine, yin and yang, Krishna and Radha, father sky and mother earth and so on..

So do you think my theory has merit, or am I deluded ? What do you 'feel' when you look at Andrej ?


Peace Out

It's called bi-sexual.
There's nothing wrong with that. Just let those people know beforehand where you stand.

Animal, vegetable, or mineral I call them.

reply to post by JibbyJedi


I have tried hard to explain that it is NOT a (bi)sexual thing going on. There is something much more deeper to this topic.

I am not a sexually repressed person. I am quite knowledgable and experienced in this regard, having been with both sexes earlier in my life, but deciding that I am 99% heterosexual.

Peace Out

reply to post by nimbinned

having been with both sexes earlier in my life

Guess I was right on. Nothing wrong with that.
No need to be defensive.

reply to post by JibbyJedi


Thank-you Jedi, I now realise I am a 'full blown' bi-sexual in denial.

There I said it - I feel much better now.

Peace Out

reply to post by JibbyJedi


Methinks he doth protest too much.

Has had man sex, also is attracted to men. Totally 99% straight.

Hey nimbinned (and btw I really dig our name being all to familiar with Nimbin myself - in fact I will travelling down there in a few weeks for some RnR)

I think your theory has a lot of merit and I am quite surprised the only attention your thread has received is a few snide remarks (sorry Domo, you're still one of my favorite posters though). I think this is a sign that despite the general open mindedness of most posters on ATS (especially on the metaphysics forum) most people - especially guys - are still afraid of being labeled a homo. This is because gender is ultimately the last great divider of the human race. Every culture and race, indeed the entire mammalian species is (99.9% of the time) either 100% male or 100% female). Those who cross that boundary, be they transsexuals, transvestites or simply homosexual, have almost always been exposed to some degree of ridicule during their lifetime simply because they do not fit neatly into what society expects of a particular gender. Even you quickly jumped on the defensive when someone accused you of being bisexual; though this sort of behavior is only to be expected when ones identity has at it's very root the concept of either being male or female.

In a metaphysical sense this is because duality still holds sway over the world in which we all live, and indeed while we exist within the physical it will always hold some degree of influence. On the material plane there will always dark or light, up or down, here or there. But as you pointed out the spirit has no gender, and in fact in the past in many cultures those individuals who did not fit neatly into one gender or another often became the tribal shamans, or the fortune tellers or the keepers of magic simple because their very existence was somewhat mysterious and they themselves were seen as being somehow closer to the spiritual world.

As we slowly move (I believe) a more spiritual world I believe society itself will become more androgynous. This can be seen already with the general acceptance of females in with short hair cuts, females now wandering around in jeans and a t-shirt as opposed to pretty dresses; and indeed the rise of the 'metrosexual' on the male side of the fence. The very fact that most members of society prefer males to be cleanly shaven, and those males who do have full-on beards are often regarded as 'creepy' only echoes (in a distant way) these ideals. Ever notice how advanced alien races are always depicted as genderless.

I myself believe that the fact that homosexuality has become such an issue is because traditional gender roles are slowly breaking down. Up until 100 years ago their wasn't even such a term as 'homosexual'. This is especially prominent within males as females are can now be self reliant and no longer require a male partner. I think this is also a reason it is males who are most likely to be homophobic. A female can always retreat back into her femininity for only they are capable of bearing a child, but there are few if any aspects of masculinity left where females now cannot go in a socially unacceptable way (they still can't write their name in the snow however ).

Notice how almost no one ever has a problem with lesbians, but mention something about a gay male and you will find most males and even many females will be slightly repulsed. A man cannot even comment on the attractiveness of another man without receiving some jibes from his mates and if asked (usually by a female) if another man is attractive will usually just reply "I don't know" (despite the fact everyone is completely capable of judging the attractiveness of another human being no what gender they may be). Also keep in mind many cultures in the past had absolutely no issues with homosexuality, the ancient Greeks probably being the most prominent.

It is also my belief that every human being is bisexual to some degree. Obviously through purely instinctual reasons men in general will always be slightly more attracted to females and females attracted to males. But overall I believe if it wasn't for societal pressure most if not all people would be far less than '99% heterosexual'.
I feel that the very act labeling of someone as either gay or straight does them a disfavor, for when one applies a label to themselves they begin to believe that that's all they can be. Even the most open minded person will ask another if they are gay or straight, or label themselves as gay or straight when truthfully they are not 100% either way. Possibly a better question to ask would be "do you prefer males or females"? Obviously when it comes to gender then one is almost always one or the other though as it is kinda hard to ignore the dangly bits (or the lack thereof).

But getting back to the main point of your thread, yes I completely agree with you and I believe that gender identity will be one of the last great hurdles we face in becoming a more spiritually based society.

Also I would like to add that that last model is damn hot, even more so imho than Hilary Swank.

Damn - double post - my laptop is like 6 years old and is mainly held together by duct tape so sorry...

reply to post by 1littlewolf


Thankyou 1littlewolf for your wise and most intelligent reply. Yes I'm a little bemused too by the lack of attention my post is getting. I think it's a really interesting topic. Maybe it's just a timing thing.

I wasn't getting defensive about my sexuality. I was just a little annoyed that the first reply would have to focus automatically on my sexual persuasion rather than looking at the spiritual perspective - that maybe perhaps we are all evolving towards an androgynous ideal.

I am comfortable being labelled a bisexual even if I'm really only attracted to 1% of the male gender. I don't really care too much about this. Like you wrote, we are moving through all this judgement and bigotry at the moment.

It is true what you say about aliens being protrayed as androgynous. It was no mistake that Jaye Davidson was cast as the alien leader in the Stargate movie. I think that there are probably many humanoid like civilizations out there in the universe that are non-sexual and derive pleasure from purely spiritual enterprises. As for reproduction, that could be done quite easily without resorting to primitive bumping and grinding. Perhaps in these places birth and death are nothing like we have here anyway - that life is derived from energetic interactions not biological ones. Like wise death is an energetic release of form into a new subtle body.

Anyway thanks again. might see you around in your humanoid form.

Peace Out

Originally posted by nimbinned
I think that there are probably many humanoid like civilizations out there in the universe that are non-sexual and derive pleasure from purely spiritual enterprises. As for reproduction, that could be done quite easily without resorting to primitive bumping and grinding. Perhaps in these places birth and death are nothing like we have here anyway - that life is derived from energetic interactions not biological ones. Like wise death is an energetic release of form into a new subtle body.

I would be very suprised if there wasn't other humanoid civilzations out there far more advanced than ours.

But think of what sex is used for 99% of the time in human society. Firstly its an act of pleasure, second its an act of love. Only rarely is it a conscious attempt to reproduce.

It is my belief is that for any civilization to advance beyond a certain point it has to fully embrace love or otherwise it will eventually self-implode. I also believe that we as humans nearly at that point ourselves. This is also why I do not believe we have anything to fear from aliens because any civilisation with technology capable of travelling across light light years of space would have long ago embraced love or destroyed itself with its own technology.

The point of this weird reply is I believe (advanced) alien sex would be almost entirely spiritual for they would long ago have not only mastered their own physical bodies in a technological sense, but also on spiritual level (which would in fact make any technological/medical intervention e.g for diseases/injury, completely redundant). As much as I enjoy 'bumping and grinding', to fully become one with another spirit on a completely spiritual level would be an experience that would be second to none.

I believe they would probably live very long lives for ageing itself is merely a result of stress and genetic programming (hence the reason a canary lives only a few years yet other birds such as many parrot species can live as long as humans) and in fact would choose when they decided to die.

Reproduction itself would happen very rarely, and would almost certainly be a very big deal. I still believe it would happen in a more or less natural way, but even if it wasn entirely done using technology I guess it wouldn't really matter for the body is merely a physical avatar for the soul.

Strangely enough I actually wrote a short story on this very subject not too long ago for one of ATS's short story competitions. You should check it out if you're interested. Its called:-

Crazy Sweaty Starseed Monkey Sex

This is a very interesting topic.

I am female, with no attraction to females. When I look at those pictures, I see the "true" gender but can also see aspects of the opposite gender. The first two people are very clearly male or female, though they do exhibit traits of the opposite gender. The last person (the model), I was thinking might actually be a hermaphrodite because s/he could pass for either gender. Overall, though, I just think all of those folks look like who they are. Doesn't matter to me. I don't think they are good or bad looking, they are just people.

But, I don't really fit into a stereotypical female thought process, so I might not be the "best" person to answer your queries. I am a woman, not a girl. I have no interest in pandering to the male species, competing with the female species, wearing revealing clothing, makeup, jewelry, speaking in an artificially squeaky voice, taking pictures with my lips "pouty", changing my hair color, falling "in love" with celebrities based on their looks only, gossiping about other people's appearances, etc.

I am just who I am. And, I am a female who prefers logic to emotion, really likes fancy mustaches and beards, has no trouble doing traditionally "male" things, will wear men's pants and shirt to work in my garden or a dress while fixing a flat on my car, has three children, has been called "beautiful" as well as "dog-ugly", who has only ever felt "attraction" to a select few males in my entire life, and who wants to be a farmer wearing overalls and flannel shirts the rest of my life.

I have been trying to figure out some of these "rules" of attraction. I even went so far as to send a message to an acquaintance who is gay about this topic:

If someone is attracted to people of the same gender, then why would s/he choose a mate who exhibits traits of the opposite gender? I can only see this from my own perspective - I am attracted to males, but not to males who look like or dress like females. I have no attraction to females.

Ok, so I understand transgender stuff, makes perfect sense to me that some people's brains are wired opposite of their physical bodies, so they feel like a "straight" person of the opposite physical gender, but would still be considered "gay". I understand why non-transgendered people wearing clothing, haircuts, and adopting attitudes that are typically from the opposite gender. Because, I do wear men's clothes sometimes, since they are more comfortable, and I really don't care if I "look like a man" or whatever, since I'm not trying to impress anyone.

What I cannot seem to grasp is why other homosexual people of the same gender would be attracted to them, when they look/sound/act like the opposite (unattractive) gender?

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that there are no rules. We are who we are and we are attracted to who we are attracted to.

As far as aliens go: maybe they are gendered, maybe they are androgynous. Personally, I am more interested in the fact that they are aliens from another world. I really don't care what they look like.

I do not think the spirit/soul has a gender. I believe I have lived both male and female past lives, and this is most likely the source of my indifference to societal gender roles.

Thank you for posting this thread, though, it has given me some insight into how other people think!

Originally posted by ottobot
I am just who I am. And, I am a female who prefers logic to emotion, really likes fancy mustaches and beards, has no trouble doing traditionally "male" things, will wear men's pants and shirt to work in my garden or a dress while fixing a flat on my car, has three children, has been called "beautiful" as well as "dog-ugly", who has only ever felt "attraction" to a select few males in my entire life, and who wants to be a farmer wearing overalls and flannel shirts the rest of my life.

Well you sound like my ideal lady Ottobot so why try any harder

Unfortunately I'm nearly physically incapable of growing a fancy moustache or a beard. Maybe in few years though eh...

Originally posted by 1littlewolf
Well you sound like my ideal lady Ottobot so why try any harder

Haha, I don't try at all! I just am.

Unfortunately I'm nearly physically incapable of growing a fancy moustache or a beard.

Yeah, me too.

Maybe in few years though eh...

Totally! I will look at your fancy mustache and beard with envy until I pass menopause and start to grow my own.

You're a gentleman and a scholar, 1littlewolf.

Originally posted by ottobot
Totally! I will look at your fancy mustache and beard with envy until I pass menopause and start to grow my own.

You're a gentleman and a scholar, 1littlewolf.

Aw shucks, *blushes*

I'll tell you what, one day I'll send you a pic of my Salvador Dali mo if you send me a pic of you changing a flat in a dress

reply to post by 1littlewolf


Hey 1littlewolf.

As I was reading your post I had two distinct images/memories come in to my consciousness

1. The movie 'Barbarella' with Jane Fonda - Have you seen it ? It's a sci-fi movie made back when sci-fi didn't really exist. Its very funky and sexy. The opening scene is highly erotic with her floating around weightless in her space-craft taking her clothes off. Anyway she arrives on this planet and meets a guy (David Hemmings) who eventually wants to have sex with her. His 'evolved' method is by touching palms only. Her way is old school - the bump and grind. Very funny !

2. HR Giger - I'm sure you've seen his work. Two or more alien life forms completely intertwined including sex organs. There doesn't seem to be much 'light' though in his paintings and sculptures. Very dark and sinister with an apparent absense of any type of spirituality.

Thanks for the link - Fiction has never really been my thing, but I can still appreciate a good story. (Maybe you don't see it as fiction !)

You seem to have a very warm and generous heart with a loving openess to all experiences in this Earth realm. Thanks for your comments. Will add you to my friends list.

Namaste

reply to post by ottobot


I'm happy you got something from this Ottobot.

I can see your point about the 3 photos. As far as I'm aware Andrej is a normal male, no sex organ ambiguity. He is really something though. I would imagine that if we were ever visited by benevelont aliens (as 1littlewolf thinks), then they would look something like him - out of this world gorgeous !

This topic obviously opens up a whole load of other related issues and subjects around sex, gender and sexuality, especially around social and cultural norms.

When I experience altered states of consciousness, my perception of my own gender is greatly influenced. Sometimes I am no longer just a man - I am a being that is balanced in my feminine and masculine qualities. When I'm really 'altered' my gender no longer matters. I return to the true source of beingness, and that is without gender.

Maybe I can do some more threads around this subject - this is an area that requires much more mining of the human psyche.

Peace Out

Originally posted by 1littlewolf

Originally posted by ottobot
Totally! I will look at your fancy mustache and beard with envy until I pass menopause and start to grow my own.

You're a gentleman and a scholar, 1littlewolf.

Aw shucks, *blushes*

I'll tell you what, one day I'll send you a pic of my Salvador Dali mo if you send me a pic of you changing a flat in a dress

Dude, you totally missed it! I had a flat the other day...

Originally posted by nimbinned
reply to post by ottobot

 

I'm happy you got something from this Ottobot.

I can see your point about the 3 photos. As far as I'm aware Andrej is a normal male, no sex organ ambiguity. He is really something though. I would imagine that if we were ever visited by benevelont aliens (as 1littlewolf thinks), then they would look something like him - out of this world gorgeous !

This topic obviously opens up a whole load of other related issues and subjects around sex, gender and sexuality, especially around social and cultural norms.

Yes, s/he is pretty. Wait, does he consider himself a he? Or is he really a she? You said s/he has modeled as both a male and a female...

Anyway, I really do think this is a topic that needs more discussion, but (as 1LW previously stated), people are still just too afraid to speak about it in a serious tone for fear of ridicule.

When I experience altered states of consciousness, my perception of my own gender is greatly influenced. Sometimes I am no longer just a man - I am a being that is balanced in my feminine and masculine qualities. When I'm really 'altered' my gender no longer matters. I return to the true source of beingness, and that is without gender.

I definitely agree with you here. Gender only matters while immersed in the physical.

I wrote a thread that covered this topic to some small degree: Skills Learned in Past Lives - only from my own experiences, though.

Maybe I can do some more threads around this subject - this is an area that requires much more mining of the human psyche.

Please do! I will participate!

Originally posted by nimbinned

Hey 1littlewolf.

As I was reading your post I had two distinct images/memories come in to my consciousness

1. The movie 'Barbarella' with Jane Fonda - Have you seen it ? It's a sci-fi movie made back when sci-fi didn't really exist. Its very funky and sexy. The opening scene is highly erotic with her floating around weightless in her space-craft taking her clothes off. Anyway she arrives on this planet and meets a guy (David Hemmings) who eventually wants to have sex with her. His 'evolved' method is by touching palms only. Her way is old school - the bump and grind. Very funny !

I’ve heard of it but never seen it. One day hopefully cos I love old movies and their vew of the future. Kinda gives us a little insight as to how we ended up the way we have.

2. HR Giger - I'm sure you've seen his work. Two or more alien life forms completely intertwined including sex organs. There doesn't seem to be much 'light' though in his paintings and sculptures. Very dark and sinister with an apparent absense of any type of spirituality.

Yeah definitely know this one. This seems to be more the stuff of nightmares than anything else. But in an infinite universe who knows what is out there. Inspiration must spring from somewhere…

Thanks for the link - Fiction has never really been my thing, but I can still appreciate a good story. (Maybe you don't see it as fiction !)

Probably a little too cliché to be real. I think I may have tried to pack a little too much in too a story so short. But I’m sure you’ll enjoy it – it’s one of my favourite stories I’ve written so far. Another you may be interested in is the top link in my signature (Initio Somni). It’s not fiction even though I wrote it in third person cos its my story!

You seem to have a very warm and generous heart with a loving openess to all experiences in this Earth realm. Thanks for your comments. Will add you to my friends list.

Namaste

Like attracts like my friend. I only wish I could be like this all the time. Added you as well.

Originally posted by ottobot

Dude, you totally missed it! I had a flat the other day...

Damn!!!

*makes mental note to let down Ottobot's other tyre next time she's out in her Sunday best*