Before There Was Welfare There Was Charity

Originally posted by FortAnthem
reply to post by dawnstar

 

The ones who warped those prices and market forces are the gubment by giving the AMA a monopoly on medical licensing and the AMA. The AMA used its monopoly to greatly reduce the number of new doctors trained by medical schools and drive up prices.

They reduced the number of medical school graduates from 28,000 per year in 1904 to only 2,000 per year today. The shortage of doctors has added greatly to the cost of medical care and the cost to the doctors to get their education.

The first generations of doctors made a pretty penny from this practice but, later generations of doctors have become overburdened with debt in order to pay the rising cost of the ever-fewer medical school slots forcing them to raise their fees even more just to keep up with their debts.

The AMA created a cartel to limit the number of doctors and drive costs through the roof.

The AMA also sets the prices for procedures making it unprofitable to run a primary care office in favor of fancy, often unnecessary procedures.

Imagine what medical prices would be today if we turned out over ten times the doctors we do today from the medical schools, all of them competing for customers in a market already flooded with doctors?

edit on 5/25/12 by FortAnthem because:

___________ extra DIV

reply to post by allintoaccount

market forces are not human, markets are for trade and should not be used for capitalizing on greed or misfortune.

You're repeating what I just said and preaching to the choir.

Originally posted by allintoaccount

Why don't doctors work for free? So much for that healing crap, more like profiteering crap.

Doctors don't work for free because they are up to their eyeballs in debt after paying for medical school. There is a lot of competition for those 2000 slots each year and, as everybody knows; when something is in short supply and high in demand, those who have possession of that thing can demand a princely sum for their services.

The shortage of medical slots drives up the cost of a medical education. Doctors deep in debt need to charge high fees just to keep out from under their debt. The shortage of doctors coming out of school further drives up the cost of medical care.

To top it all off; the AMA, the group that created the artificial scarcity in the first place gets to set the prices for all medical services. The AMA is a monopoly. There is no competition out there to help drive down prices.

All this because the gubment granted them a monopoly on medical licensing. Thank God we have Big Gubment looking out for us.

reply to post by allintoaccount

Why don't doctors work for free? So much for that healing crap, more like profiteering crap.

Okay, now you're preaching to some other choir and talking out of both sides of your mouth. I guess you were just kidding around when you claimed that market forces should not be used to capitalize greed. Look at you, so greedy you could care less how a doctor would survive and only that they should serve you as a slave. What utter greed!

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by allintoaccount

 

Why don't doctors work for free? So much for that healing crap, more like profiteering crap.

Okay, now you're preaching to some other choir and talking out of both sides of your mouth. I guess you were just kidding around when you claimed that market forces should not be used to capitalize greed. Look at you, so greedy you could care less how a doctor would survive and only that they should serve you as a slave. What utter greed!

if doctors could heal they would survive on the gratitude of others, don't forget where modern medison began, in the hands of travelling snake charmers.
Do doctors work for the money and big houses or for the love of the people? Doctors are now dictating how much food we can eat, beer we can drink and how to have safe sex , even though people have been having sex for ever, .

reply to post by allintoaccount


The only snake charmer here is you. You might want to do some research before making such claims.

The rise of modern medicine:

Medicine was revolutionized in the 19th century and beyond by advances in chemistry and laboratory techniques and equipment, old ideas of infectious disease epidemiology were replaced with bacteriology and virology. Bacteria and microorganisms were first observed with a microscope by Antonie van Leeuwenhoek in 1676, initiating the scientific field microbiology.

There were certainly snake oil salesman during this rise, but you are attempting to take those snake oil salesmen and ascribe that to all of modern medicine in an attempt to justify your own profound disregard for humanity...other than yourself, of course. You have regard for yourself and seemingly believe that others owe you whatever you command, or at the very least believe that doctors owe you "healing".

Heal thyself.

Originally posted by Beanskinner
Nice thread Sir!

I enjoyed it very much.

I think we can do our part for the time being. Poverty is rampant throughout the

world and I think it is a shame that we haven't figured out a way to stem the effects.

There is so much unclaimed, unused land that could be used to generate food and the

like.

edit on 25-5-2012 by Beanskinner because: (no reason given)

There is no profit in giving food away and it's not free to grow it either. It simply wouldn't work in our society because sadly our economy is based on greed. When our economy wasn't based on greed charity flowed freely because people weren't afraid to let loose of a dollar. But now when you have people that cry because their taxes may go up 1 or 2 percent that just shows their idol is Ebenezer Scrooge and they share the same views about charity.

Show me a nation that does not have a welfare system for the needy
and I will show you a nation impoverished with no functional government and rampant crime.


The spokesperson for a no welfare, charity only society:

I will stick with my socialist hellhole with fed and clothed people, ktksbie

reply to post by buster2010


Yet another member talking out of both sides of their mouth. You lament greed and then advocate wealth redistribution through taxation. Plunderers plunder because they are greedy. Income taxation is an odious blight on this nation and hurts economy, not help it.

Originally posted by FortAnthem

Originally posted by allintoaccount

Why don't doctors work for free? So much for that healing crap, more like profiteering crap.

Doctors don't work for free because they are up to their eyeballs in debt after paying for medical school. There is a lot of competition for those 2000 slots each year and, as everybody knows; when something is in short supply and high in demand, those who have possession of that thing can demand a princely sum for their services.

The shortage of medical slots drives up the cost of a medical education. Doctors deep in debt need to charge high fees just to keep out from under their debt. The shortage of doctors coming out of school further drives up the cost of medical care.

To top it all off; the AMA, the group that created the artificial scarcity in the first place gets to set the prices for all medical services. The AMA is a monopoly. There is no competition out there to help drive down prices.

All this because the gubment granted them a monopoly on medical licensing. Thank God we have Big Gubment looking out for us.

edit on 5/25/12 by FortAnthem because:

___________ extra DIV

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by allintoaccount

 

The only snake charmer here is you. You might want to do some research before making such claims.

The rise of modern medicine:

Medicine was revolutionized in the 19th century and beyond by advances in chemistry and laboratory techniques and equipment, old ideas of infectious disease epidemiology were replaced with bacteriology and virology. Bacteria and microorganisms were first observed with a microscope by Antonie van Leeuwenhoek in 1676, initiating the scientific field microbiology.

There were certainly snake oil salesman during this rise, but you are attempting to take those snake oil salesmen and ascribe that to all of modern medicine in an attempt to justify your own profound disregard for humanity...other than yourself, of course. You have regard for yourself and seemingly believe that others owe you whatever you command, or at the very least believe that doctors owe you "healing".

Heal thyself.

you can tell yourself whatever you want but those early ''snake oil people of old'' started the era of modern medicine and the industry which is 3 rd to oil and arms in value. We are all ill now........

reply to post by SaturnFX

Show me a nation that does not have a welfare system for the needy and I will show you a nation impoverished with no functional government and rampant crime.

I'll show you The Guilded Age:

America's economy grew by more than 400% between 1860 and 1900
Technological advances, expanding population, improved transportation, financial innovation, and new business practices combined to fuel this economic growth
"Titans of Industry" like John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, and J.P. Morgan built monopolies and revolutionized business practices
Laissez faire ideology called for little or no government regulation of economic affairs
Unskilled urban workers did not share in economic gains, instead enduring great poverty

A stark contrast to your hyperbole, the Guilded Age represents a much more realistic portrayal of prosperous times, where as it is in any age, the unskilled suffer, the greedy seek to cartelize, but in this "laissez faire" economy the economy grew by more than 400%, technology flourished, the population grew, transportation improved, and innovation marked the American character.

As much as unskilled labor suffers in any age, during the Guilded Age you would be hard pressed to find one photograph or painting that matches your provocative picture in your post, which by the way, you seek to capitalize on that poor child's suffering in order to sell socialism.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by buster2010

 

Yet another member talking out of both sides of their mouth. You lament greed and then advocate wealth redistribution through taxation. Plunderers plunder because they are greedy. Income taxation is an odious blight on this nation and hurts economy, not help it.

Ignorant of American history? When Americans paid 70% and sometimes more than that this country was doing great. There was virtually no national debt the government had surplus money on hand to build bridges, dams, roads, and so on. Also did I mention there was also more than enough jobs to go around because the wealthy invested their money back into their companies. Unlike now where the wealthy just hoard it and move the jobs overseas. If the wealthy doesn't want to be taxed then bring the jobs back. Oh yeah that's right the wealthy just wants to pay slave wages and then they cry about the poor getting to use the earned income tax credit. I guess that the wealthy are too stupid to figure out if the wages they pay weren't so low then the people wouldn't be living below the poverty level and then they wouldn't be able to use the tax credit.

Cry about taxes all you want there was a time when they did this country some good and can do so again.

And if no one helped you out, you suffered, starved and died.

"I then turned my attention to the right arm, with a view to saving it, but it began to manifest the same disposition as the amputated arm, and a short time ago I took off four of Dally's fingers, so that now he has but one thumb on one hand with which to earn his livelihood. It is impossible for him to work, and he must live on the bounty of Mr. Edison or starve.

home.gwi.net...

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Show me a nation that does not have a welfare system for the needy and I will show you a nation impoverished with no functional government and rampant crime.

I'll show you The Guilded Age:

America's economy grew by more than 400% between 1860 and 1900
Technological advances, expanding population, improved transportation, financial innovation, and new business practices combined to fuel this economic growth
"Titans of Industry" like John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, and J.P. Morgan built monopolies and revolutionized business practices
Laissez faire ideology called for little or no government regulation of economic affairs
Unskilled urban workers did not share in economic gains, instead enduring great poverty

A stark contrast to your hyperbole, the Guilded Age represents a much more realistic portrayal of prosperous times, where as it is in any age, the unskilled suffer, the greedy seek to cartelize, but in this "laissez faire" economy the economy grew by more than 400%, technology flourished, the population grew, transportation improved, and innovation marked the American character.

As much as unskilled labor suffers in any age, during the Guilded Age you would be hard pressed to find one photograph or painting that matches your provocative picture in your post, which by the way, you seek to capitalize on that poor child's suffering in order to sell socialism.

edit on 25-5-2012 by Jean Paul Zodeaux because: (no reason given)

You do know the reason why they were able to grow so large it's because monopolies weren't made illegal until the 1890's. To make it simple for you. When you are the only one selling that product then you can charge what you want for it. That is why they were able to make so much.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
And if no one helped you out, you suffered, starved and died.

"I then turned my attention to the right arm, with a view to saving it, but it began to manifest the same disposition as the amputated arm, and a short time ago I took off four of Dally's fingers, so that now he has but one thumb on one hand with which to earn his livelihood. It is impossible for him to work, and he must live on the bounty of Mr. Edison or starve.

home.gwi.net...

It is an interesting contradiction that lexicographers generally define the word selfish as meaning a chief concern for ones own interest, especially with disregard for others.

I have often argued that there are no contradictions, only flawed premises. It is a flawed premise to argue that selfishness is both a chief concern for ones interest and disregard for others. It is arguable that even misanthropes know that this behavior is not at all in their best interest.

Long before any technological advancement, humanity knew full well that regard for others was very much a necessity if we were to have a chief concern for our interests individually. This is why we form communities, and this is why we suffer now because of the decline of community.

This site is a community. I have made friends who have come to know me personally and have come to know the times when I struggle. Friends who have helped me. Friends I've met through this community we call ATS.

No government made these members help me. I didn't even ask for their help. They helped me because they wanted to. I accepted the help because I needed it, and I do my best to help others as best I can, not out of obligation, but because it is in my best interest to do so.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


If Mr.Edison wouldn't have been so nice and didn't know the man personally he very much could have been a double amputee, homeless and starving.

People will not always help you, especially if you have no family.

reply to post by buster2010

You do know the reason why they were able to grow so large it's because monopolies weren't made illegal until the 1890's.

No, I do not know that. What I do know is that greed is rampant in any age, and during times of prosperity the greedy will attempt to form cartels and horde the wealth. What I do know is that the monopolies that you speak of were hurting the economy that had been so prosperous.

The Sherman Antitrust Act:

The Sherman Antitrust Act (Sherman Act,[1] July 2, 1890, ch. 647, 26 Stat. 209, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1–7) is a landmark federal statute on competition law passed by Congress in 1890. It prohibits certain business activities that reduce competition in the marketplace, and requires the United States federal government to investigate and pursue trusts, companies, and organizations suspected of being in violation. It was the first Federal statute to limit cartels and monopolies, and today still forms the basis for most antitrust litigation by the United States federal government. However, for the most part, politicians were unwilling to refer to the law until Theodore Roosevelt's presidency (1901–1909).

The Clayton Antitrust Act:

The Clayton Antitrust Act of 1914 (Pub.L. 63-212, 38 Stat. 730, enacted October 15, 1914, codified at 15 U.S.C. §§ 12–27, 29 U.S.C. §§ 52–53), was enacted in the United States to add further substance to the U.S. antitrust law regime by seeking to prevent anticompetitive practices in their incipiency. That regime started with the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890, the first Federal law outlawing practices considered harmful to consumers (monopolies, cartels, and trusts). The Clayton Act specified particular prohibited conduct, the three-level enforcement scheme, the exemptions, and the remedial measures.

reply to post by RealSpoke


All people are basically good, and while some person may not help you in your time of need, that doesn't mean that person doesn't help people. Timing is everything.

I very much want to my own successful business. I started my own business smack dab in the middle of this double dip recession. So, some days chicken, some days feathers. What astounds me though, is on those days when it is only feathers, people seem to pick up on my struggles and will reach out to me, offering food, or sometimes just a laugh.

Going hungry is not a whole lot of fun, but as I continue to struggle, I have learned that some days it is required I feed my soul. I always understand that better when I have no feed to feed my body.

My own personal experience, especially during these rough times, is that people will help as best they can. I am, and will remain forever grateful for that.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
As much as unskilled labor suffers in any age, during the Guilded Age you would be hard pressed to find one photograph or painting that matches your provocative picture in your post, which by the way, you seek to capitalize on that poor child's suffering in order to sell socialism.

edit on 25-5-2012 by Jean Paul Zodeaux because: (no reason given)

Lets give a full picture of your random wiki snippet of the day

In the Progressive Era that followed the Gilded Age, it became a world power. In the process, there was much dislocation, including the destruction of the Plains Indians, hardening discrimination against African Americans, and environmental degradation. Two extended nationwide economic depressions followed the Panic of 1873 and the Panic of 1893.

Yes, it was a great time of massive boom
and wholesale slaughter of indiginous people for their lands and resources
and environmental catastrophys
and a hardened subjugation of the newly freed black people

and lasted long enough with reconstruction and such employing many people whom weren't being murdered or blasted.

So lets talk about the poor

Do you honestly think it will be hard for me to find a photo of former slaves living in squalor and ignored?
Do you honestly think that the actual poor were having fantastic times..what with them being minorities that nobody paid attention to except for purposes of serfdom and tyrannical subjegation?


Your good old days were only good to white males of influence.