Before There Was Welfare There Was Charity

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


You seem to have misinterpreted my words. I stated that I consider myself to be agnostic, which of course could mean many things. I'm not intentionally questioning or insulting that particular god because I do not believe in it. In my opinion all religions closely related to Christianity were obviously created as a system of laws and it is highly unlikely that their god is a real deity - or at least in the form that the popular religious texts describe it.

Originally posted by neo96
Well

Hoorah for the fascist's in the thread

Government is the mother
Government is the father
Government is the educator
Government is God.
Government is robin hood
Government is the care giver

Government is the end all be all of the citizen's existence!

Nobody's saying this, or even implying it.

However, if your point is that government can NEVER do good within our current world... well that's just completely irrational/stupid thinking. Once again, I'm an Anarchist, but I can also be scientific enough to acknowledge if it does some true good (what little it does, all things considered). The point is to MAKE it do better, that's the whole point, make it do better than it is. Who can argue with that? It's like arguing against renewable energy because it isn't perfect, even though it's a far better long-term option than fossil fuels. Arguing against taxing the rich and giving to the poor/needy is the same thing. Maybe you'll come around someday...

Oh but let me guess... you believe that "free" Capitalist markets should be our mother/father/educator/god/robin hood/care-giver, huh? If so... then that's the socio-economic equivalent of believing the Earth is 7000 years old.

120 trillion dollars for doing nothing? Where in the world did you come up with these figures

From www.usdebtclock.org...

The current national deficit: $15,748,057,052,321

Social Security Liability: $15,692,332,427,456
Prescription Drug Liability: $20,698,452,056,432
Medicare Liability: $82,565,816,300,345

Not counting interest.

For a Grand total of $119,034,363,432 for this year 2012

Not counting the $1 trillion federal student loan liability or other government spending.

Current medicare/medicaid spending $826,775,023,475
Current social security spending: $743,086,511,678

to see 2016 click on the upper right "debt clock time machine" at current spending levels

The national Deficit: $21,859,632,920,233

Social Security spending: $996,013,764,345
Medicare/Medicaid spending: $981,041,113,235

Not counting interest

Social Security liability: $20,052,377,936,342
Prescription Drug liability: $26,530,839,312,365
Medicare Liability: $101,209,692,034,134

Total liability : $145,792,619,324,567

Not counting interest

The cost of social engineering or the pc term playing robin hood

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


Thank you so much for your comment about why some wish get rid of welfare. Because they want the money! The Newt, the Romney and clan are living in a world where why the hell do they need to lift a finger? It never ceases to amaze me that if there was adequate charity, welfare would for most part not needed. Trouble is, thats fantasy land.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Are we our brother's keeper?

"When a child of the streets stands before you in rags, with a tear-stained face, you cannot easily forget him. And yet, you are perplexed what to do. The human soul is difficult to interfere with. You hesitate how far you should go."

www.pbs.org...
This subject interests me Jean Paul - lots

So many of us - whether we care to admit it or not - are at one time or another children. Even when we are fully grown. Unarmed, ill-equipped, wounded, damaged, stranded, exhausted, sick, hungry, sad - helpless

But don't ever be a victim...

Sometimes we need each other. But we are taught not to need each other

We're taught to be charitable - and not to accept charity

Not wanting to need each other - and not wanting people to need us seems (at least to me) like such an American thing. Weakness isn't tolerated - but when we are weak (and we are all weak) we rationalize. It usually begins with something like: at least I...

Your title could just as easily read: Before Welfare There Was Cruelty

It sounds like criticism, but it's not. I acknowledge that the problems are obvious, and the solutions are...not as obvious

But, before Welfare? It was the same. Because we are the same. They say - you can't legislate morality. Well - you also can't count on it

But, who doesn't dream of a Great Society? Who wouldn't try to make one - for real? I've always hated the saying: The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Good intentions are almost everything. But you are right - they aren't enough

The thing is - Welfare - how it's decided, how it's managed, how we pay for it - who pays for it - all of it - has become yet another chew-toy in a tug of war between the parties. The two parties. Just the two parties - the increasingly useless two... No surprise the whole thing is a runaway disaster. What to do, what to do...?

from the same link above:

Elliot Bobo eventually found a warm and loving home. The Children's Aid Society liked to point with pride to other success stories, like those of street boys Andrew Burke and John Brady who grew up to become governors of North Dakota and of Alaska, respectively. But the record of placements was mixed. Some of the farmers saw the children as nothing more than a source of cheap labor. Hazelle Latimer, an orphan train rider featured in the film, remembers a farmer with "old dirty hands" examining her teeth. There was also evidence of abuse by foster parents. Many of the older boys simply ran away; some children were rejected by their new parents.

Again - I use children as an example for a reason. Charity is lovely. And people are good - I believe that. I know it. But...

Here on Earth, those in Heaven would like to see you help yourself.

What about those that can't help themselves? Survival of the fittest? The Gods must be crazy...

This is not to say the critical thinker with a good heart will find it easy to survive, but far easier than the thoughtless regardless of their good heart.

Well, then - survival of the fittest it is. God help the stupid. Oh, wait...

____________________________

I just spent about a half hour looking for that pie video because I remember it too...but mostly because I like pie

can't find it - yet

:-)

reply to post by NoHierarchy

However, if your point is that government can NEVER do good within our current world... well that's just completely irrational/stupid thinking. Once again, I'm an Anarchist

Government can never do any good have never seen government do anything without force to accomplish that everything the current government and the purveyors of that ideology are the anti thesis of what a constitutional republic is.

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
So you're saying that the rise in welfare caused a decline in community?

No.

You're blaming the treatment for the disease.

What happened is community decreased when industry/Capitalism started to take hold. People flocked to cities because they were dirt poor and tied into an ECONOMIC SYSTEM that demanded hierarchy and every-man-for-himself mentalities.... all in the name of "progress". Welfare was the bandaid to this, not the cause. Get your reality straight and stop trying to dupe these poor people.

edit on 26-5-2012 by NoHierarchy because: (no reason given)

Yet another dogma chasing parked karmas. Sigh.

Either you have a profoundly ignorant understanding of history, or you think everyone else does, either way, when "industry/Capitalism started to take hold" is generally known as the Industrial Revolution which was a period between 1750 and 1850. Further, your assertion that the decline of community has something to do with flocking to cities ignores or pretends that urban settings are antithetical to community. I live in Los Angeles which is an odd mixture of many things, but a sprawling land of a thousand suburbs that in its urban proper has Chinatown, Little Tokyo, Thai Town, Little Armenia, to name just a few. The decline of community does not necessarily mean that community no longer exists, and community exists in urban settings just the same as it does in small town America.

In the O.P. I referenced "Bowling Alone: America's Declining Social Capital," by Robert D. Putnam (1995). Here are some facts he points out in that essay:

Participation in parent-teacher organizations has dropped from more than 12 million in 1964
to about 7 million now.

Weekly churchgoing has declined from 48 percent in the late 1950s to about 41 percent in the
early 1970s, and remaining about the same since then.

Union membership has declined by more than half since the 1950s--representing only 15.8
percent of the work force in 1992.

Membership in traditional women's groups has declined steadily since the mid-1960s. "For
example, membership in the national Federation of Women's Clubs is down by more than
half (59 percent) since 1964, while membership in the League of Women Voters is off 42
percent since 1969".

Volunteers for mainline civic organizations have also experienced significant decline.
Volunteers for the Boy Scouts declined by 26 percent since 1970; volunteers for the Red
Cross are off by 61 percent since 1970.

Membership in fraternal organizations have dropped substantially. "Membership is down
significantly in the Lions (off 12 percent since , the Elks (off 18 percent since 1979), the Shriners (off 27 percent since 1979), the Jaycees (off 44 percent since 1979), and the Masons
(down 39 percent since 1959)"

"The most whimsical yet discomfiting bit of evidence of social disengagement in contemporary America that I have discovered is this: more Americans are bowling today than ever before, but bowling in organized leagues has plummeted in the last decade or so. Between and 1993 the total number of bowlers in America increased by 10 percent, while league bowling decreased by 40 percent"

From An Essay on the Decline of Communities by Frank W. Elwell

It is nice to have an opinion, and of course, everyone does, better still to have an informed opinion.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


You mean Michelle O's pie video where she told us we should give up more of our pie so others could have more?

www.americanthinker.com...


Marxism

"The great task before our founders was putting into practice the ideal that government could simultaneously serve liberty and advance the common good. and Government, he believed, had an important role to play in advancing our common prosperity." - Barack Obama

Collective? Common prosperity? "the ultimate goal of socialism is common prosperity" Source: Yang Chungui, The Marxist

obamaism.blogspot.com...

reply to post by arbiture


lol
just turn your speakers up high and read those "get rid of welfare" folks posts
starting with the post above yours
[proof that plans for how to spend the bux are already calculated]

you'll hear the sound of hogs rooting for truffles
if you have really good speakers you'll even hear the KA-CHING of a cash register.

reply to post by neo96


Thank you for providing that valuable link that explains everything. I have no idea how accurate it is, but I did notice the actual deficit is around 35 trillion(unfunded assets minus total national liabilities). Sure when you combine all the welfare programs they are more than defense spending, but without so many wars the last 60 odd years(vietnam, south korea, ww2, iraq twice, afghanistan, libya, cold war against china and russia) the deficit would certainly have been much lower.

Another thing to notice is that the welfare programs have been greatly abused in some cases. Only long term disabled people should be on state welfare, the rest belong on disability or unemployment. The reason for so many people needing assistance today and during every recession, is because capitalism is a pyramid structure aka a ponzi scheme. The people who invest first make the most, and those that invest last lose everything.

I have no desire to explain how the system works to people who think they already know everything or to people who stand to gain by maintaining the current status quo. Those who care enough always find a way to learn!

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


ThirdEye - you see so little - even with the extra eye

have you ever considered writing a thoughtful post?

one that involves more thinking - and fewer jerking knees?

I'll reply to you when you can stay on topic - and pay attention to what a person has just said

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Shortly after I got online today I received a message from greeneyedleo asking me if I could summarize in 1-2 sentences what this thread is about. Of course, anyone who knows me in this site knows full well that I find it way past difficult to say anything in 1-2 sentences, but I did my best to give what I thought best summarized this thread:

All people are basically good and understand their interdependence with others, knowing that we must take care of each other to keep that interdependence strong. All governments are basically bad and have no understanding of their dependence upon those they govern, only knowing that people's proclivity to take care of each other is easily exploited to suit their own ends...power.

I understand your perception that we are taught to not need each other, but I don't believe this is true, and what I do believe is that the monopoly that government holds on education has amounted to indoctrination centers across this nation, but I do not think those indoctrination centers are teaching kids that they don't need others. You suggest that "sometimes we need each other" but I would suggest we need each other far often than sometimes. Not all the time, but most of the time we need each other.

Indeed, in a bigger picture view, we are all posting on an online forum provided to us by people, and we need them in order to keep this communication going. I need you in order to keep this specific communication going and I need the membership of this site in order to keep this thread going. All of us in this site need the internet and service providers in order to enjoy this site. There is just no denying how much we humans need and rely upon each other to make progressive steps forward.

Someone, I think it was NoHierarchy, quoted FDR making some snarky remark about conservatives:

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward.

This is a silly snipe at others and implies progressives don't need conservatives. I have often made this argument on this site, but it bears repeating. Daedalus was the conservative to Icarus' liberal. I am unwilling to call Icarus a "progressive" and frankly I am unwilling to call those on the left who've hijacked both the words "liberal" and "progressive", "progressives", but this point is in regards to conservatives and how they function in the world and how liberals need them. Daedalus, in order to facilitate his son and his escape from imprisonment, quite progressively build wings made of feathers, string and wax. He taught his son how to use the wings, but warned him not to fly too close to the sun lest the heat of that sun melt the wax of his wings the result being tragic.

Once in the air, Icarus, being the young impetuous liberal he was, couldn't resist to soar where eagles dare, and kept - ignoring his fathers pleas to not do so - flying higher and higher, nearer and nearer to the sun until the wax melted, his wings fell apart and he plummeted to his death. Daedalus did not utter his conservative warnings in order to keep Icarus from progress. Quite the opposite, he made these warnings so both of them could progress, and indeed, Daedalus did and flew to safety, spending the rest of is days mourning the tragic death of his son.

While FDR's quote is easier to read than my standard verbosity, the price of brevity - even if it often comes dressed up as levity - is all too often nonsensical remarks made only to sound clever.

In terms of being taught to accept charity, I am not so sure these lessons are so necessary. Pride may keep us from asking for help, but pride can only last as long as accomplishment remains fresh in our history. If we have not accomplished much lately, it is hard to remain prideful, for what have we to be proud of? Under these conditions, it becomes much easier to not only ask for help, but accept it.

My title, I suppose, could have just as easily read: "Before there was welfare there was cruelty", but cruelty exists today and in fine fashion, just ask doomtotheday, he'll tell you the cruelty is so bad that we should all be eliminated for it.

You say we cannot count on morality, seemingly pointing to the immoral as evidence, but necessarily ignoring the moral in order to make your argument. Who doesn't dream of a Great Society? I for one do not, and suspect there are many more who do not. I cannot speak for those many more, but I for one do dream of a Great Humanity, one Individual at a Time.

I wish I had more space, my friend, but this post has reached its end. Thank you so much for joining me in this thread, and for your welcome discourse.

Originally posted by doomedtoday
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

You seem to have misinterpreted my words. I stated that I consider myself to be agnostic, which of course could mean many things. I'm not intentionally questioning or insulting that particular god because I do not believe in it. In my opinion all religions closely related to Christianity were obviously created as a system of laws and it is highly unlikely that their god is a real deity - or at least in the form that the popular religious texts describe it.

You seem to think that your agnosticism allows you to deflect my arguments. I did not reference the Fall from Grace and Flood mythologies to preach religion, but to point to mythology. Would you be more comfortable with my analogies if I had instead spoke of Prometheus and Pandora?

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


And you think the industrial revolution can only happen with capitalism?

How much "freedom and liberty" does a ponzi scheme contain?

Socialist and communist countries have had their own industrial revolution while being blockaded by nato for many decades, all the while everyone had a roof over their head, a car, health insurance, a vacation(probably longer on average than in the west).

Not to say communism(full public ownership/economy) is the best way. A mixed economy that respects both private and public ownership, according to what is ideal at the time, is best imo(probably fact)!

But I agree with town and city life being ok.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


You begin with a strawman. Why? If my argument is flawed, why do you feel compelled to reword it?

You apparently do so merely to preach your socialist dogma. Perhaps just to engage with me, it has been a while and I do miss you, so I am okay with your dogma, but resent the strawman. Ultimately, it is always good, in spite of our many disagreements, that we can also agree.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


the banksters games with money
have caused the collapse of pretty much every past civilization

the parallels between pre-collapse Rome alone,
and the current American Empire [AKA Dixie]
are quite striking, and proof that psychopaths have been in charge
throughout recorded history.

it's a complex web TCOTBIP have weaved
but as the OP points out, the increasing lack of charity
[due to the constant chanting of the "welfare parasite" mantra, usually by the real parasites]
is a major strand,

soon to evolve into a noose

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Shortly after I got online today I received a message from greeneyedleo asking me if I could summarize in 1-2 sentences what this thread is about.

good call - greeneyed :-)

It's not that it doesn't make sense (your thread) - it's that this subject is convoluted and personal - for everyone

I wish I had time for a better reply - but since I don't, I'll try to do what greeneyedleo asked of you - sum it up as succinctly as possible

this has been on my mind a lot lately:

Rudyard Kipling
The Law of the Jungle

Now this is the Law of the Jungle -- as old and as true as the sky;
And the Wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the Wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk the Law runneth forward and back --
For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

balance - it's always about balance

interesting and meaningful thread - hopefully later I won't find it's nothing but partisan nuttiness

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

interesting and meaningful thread - hopefully later I won't find it's nothing but partisan nuttiness

Even now, this thread has its share of partisan nuttiness, but this site has more than partisan nuts in it, and even the partisan are capable of so much more, and in this site, that Greatness I dream of often shows its Great potential, even in this thread.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

You mean Michelle O's pie video where she told us we should give up more of our pie so others could have more?

www.americanthinker.com...


Marxism

"The great task before our founders was putting into practice the ideal that government could simultaneously serve liberty and advance the common good. and Government, he believed, had an important role to play in advancing our common prosperity." - Barack Obama

Collective? Common prosperity? "the ultimate goal of socialism is common prosperity" Source: Yang Chungui, The Marxist

obamaism.blogspot.com...

edit on 26-5-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

Talk is cheap. If he is a socialist, then I am a capitalist!

BP polluted the entire gulf of mexico and NO ONE has seen a courtroom and/or been indicted of anything.

He gave out trillions in CORPORATE stimulus packages, NOT ONE DIME has been used to creating jobs in the states. Almost all of it has been outsourced AFTER collecting the money in the first place. Plus the bonus paid out to those undeserving slackers.

Illegal immigration is still very high.

Noting has been nationalised and most americans don't even know what nationalising is. They just parrot what fox news tells them to.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

My title, I suppose, could have just as easily read: "Before there was welfare there was cruelty", but cruelty exists today and in fine fashion, just ask doomtotheday, he'll tell you the cruelty is so bad that we should all be eliminated for it.

Alright, I feel that we have a misunderstanding here and I cannot apologize enough if statements made by myself are the reason for the misunderstanding. I'm assuming you don't really know me around these forums, I am still kind of new. Those who do recognize my name are probably under the assumption that I am a bit crazier than the average ATS poster, in that many of my comments will not match, sometimes I seem like the really nice peace and love type and other times I seem like the doom and gloom screw it all type. Please try not to let my comment earlier give you the wrong idea of me. While it is true that I sometimes do think it would be better for our world without humans and at the time of that post the reading of previous posts had indeed put me in such a mood, that is not a proper representation of who I am and what I truly believe. I do not want to see humans killed off, I don't really want to see anyone harmed without probable cause and the majority of humans are not deserving of a punishment such as death.

I just want to say that I never meant any harm toward your general direction and as a matter of fact I have starred some of your comments in this thread including the one I took the quote where you misspelled my name from. You seem like a fairly intelligent person who tries to be as informed as possible and I respect that.

I know that I have made some negative statements in this thread and that is because of how sensitive of a subject this is to me. Unlike most people around here who are not in their mid 20s coming from a childhood of poverty and violence and neglect, I feel like I could bring good reasoning behind my opinion on welfare if I would actually sit down and put effort into writing it. However, this being such a sensitive topic for me, I seem to be unable to do such a thing without it having an emotional effect on me.

I am reading many of these posts as opinions expressed by our average men and it seems to me as if I m a person deserving less respect because of where I came from, which I do find very offensive. I see it everyday man, I have very few friends around campus because many of the average middle class Americans do not want me to be around them. Poor people are not popular in America. I find this repulsive because never got to make a decision, this is my chance to make that decision, do I want to continue being "poor" or do I want to go to school and get an education that will hopefully lead to a "real job."? Unfortunately it is impossible for me to do such a thing without student loans, a minimum wage job will not pay for a college education. You see, I've always desired to be an engineer, the military would not accept me, so if I would not go to college there is absolutely no way for me to do such a thing in America. I am also going to college for a kind of self fulfillment if you will, I am the first person in my family to ever go to college, a rarity today. I am doing well in school, better than the average student, which is made up of mostly average middle class. Yet there seem to be many who believe that I do no belong there if my family did not have the money to send me, how is this fair or just? We do not get to choose the family we get and we should not be punished for such a thing.

Sorry if I come across as a jerk, I have suffer from a disease called borderline personality disorder accompanied by major depression and I cannot remember a day that I have not considering ending my own life, the only thing that keeps me going is knowing that I am doing so much better than many other my age and certainly much better than anyone from my family as well as the majority of the people who also suffer from the same disease. That and knowing that in doing so will and continuing to struggle and hang in there I am doing my job as a father and showing my children that no matter what, with enough effort and determination one can make their own path in life, especially after I succeed in school and land a job as an engineer - something I've always wanted to be.

Here are some links explaining my disorder, I'll provide a .com, .gov, and .org. Please understand that I am not trying to make excuses for my actions, I simply wish for others o understand why I act the way that I do and sometimes will say one thing and yet say the complete opposite at others. I truly am sorry for saying some of the negative crap that I have in the manner that I have done so.

new.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
www.nami.org.../TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=54&ContentID=44780