The sin of Angels

Often times when speaking with Christians, the sin of Adam and Eve is what is said to have brought death, destruction, diseases, pestilences, famine, and all other bad things upon our planet and every one of its inhabitants. It even caused animals who were plant eaters to become carnivores. I've even heard that the reason why galaxies collide with each other, planets destroyed, stars going supernova, etc. is also a result of the sin in the Garden. The sin of Adam and Eve threw the whole universe out of whack according to most Christians, if I'm not mistaken.

This got me thinking (which I like to do) about the sin of the angels. We don't really know when angels were created, but we have to assume they were created within one of the six days of creation, I guess. (Does anyone else have any other idea on that?) At some point, there was a rebellion in heaven. The sin of Pride and Rebellion reared its head. Lead by Lucifer, 1/3 of the angelic host left their habitation of love, peace, and joy with the Creator of the Universe. How anyone could do that is a mystery, but yet 1/3 of these beings did do it according to the bible. And by the time Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, the serpent was also there, who is also known as Satan and Lucifer. This would mean that the sin of rebellion and pride had already taken place. Does this mean that angels had only existed a few earth days in heaven before they rebelled? I don't know. Seems strange.

Anyway, to get to my point, what happened in heaven when sin occurred there? Did death become a reality to the immortal angels? Did diseases develop there? Did plant eaters become carnivores there? Did famines spread? Did viruses and bacteria develop? Did the universe get thrown out of whack? Were there any consequences besides being kicked out of heaven to be punished at some future point in time for their sin? If not, let's compare the sin of humans with the sin of angels.

When the humans sinned in the garden (remember they had no knowledge of good and evil since they had not eaten from the tree, and were convinced by the most subtle creature of the garden to do it) death, disease, destruction, famine, killing for food, hard labor, painful pregnancies, death, hate, galaxies colliding, planets destroyed, death, chaos, plague, miscarriages, etc. and did I say death? Then after death, the possibility of being tortured FOREVER in fire because the sin of the first humans is passed down to all future humans who come into existence.

Now when the angels sinned and rebelled, which happened BEFORE the humans did it, what happened in their heavenly abode? What got thrown out of whack? What diseased developed there? What famines and plagues do they have to deal with? What is their life expectancy now? Why didn't all other angels have to pay for this sin as all humans have to pay for the first humans' sin?

It seems to me that the sinning angels got off easier than the sinning humans. Everything is fine where they came from. Their sin didn't throw the whole universe out of whack. All they have to worry about is their final punishment which is dealt much later. Humans on the other hand have to deal with all the evil on our planet, and after we have done that then we can join the fallen angels in the eternal fire.

So I guess my question is, why did the sin of the humans throw everything out of whack, but the sin of the angels, who sinned first, did nothing to the land in which they dwelt, much less the universe?

First off, We have no idea if the "sin of angels" or the "sin of humans" has thrown anything out of whack because it is impossible to observe that.

Second, Adam & Eve's punishment for sin was banishment from the Garden of Eden...etc.
We are not being punished for their sin, We (as a human race) experience pain & suffering for the sins we continue to commit.
God however, is not responsible for that pain & suffering. The Devil is.


Also, there is no scriptual proof of angels sinning. They did rebel though.
I guess this is something we will find out when we pass.

reply to post by Hydroman


Ya...a man took a bit of an apple....and everything went wrong....how ridiculous it that!

Also....I don't believe any Angels did sin....that concept is ridiculous too.

What amazes me is that people actually believe this stuff.

I guess that depends on what your definition of human is. I have a sneaking suspicion that humans and the fallen angels are a lot more connected than you might imagine. In fact I have a sneaking suspicion that Adam was the first Homosapian which had his body inhabited by an angel. He was afterall "taken" by the elohim and placed in the garden.

Originally posted by caladonea
reply to post by Hydroman

 

Ya...a man took a bit of an apple....and everything went wrong....how ridiculous it that!

Also....I don't believe any Angels did sin....that concept is ridiculous too.

What amazes me is that people actually believe this stuff.

This quote shows you just how much this person knows.
Eve Bit the apple first and everything went wrong from there.
Maybe you should get your facts straight before you try to bash someone's beliefs.

Originally posted by GmoS719
First off, We have no idea if the "sin of angels" or the "sin of humans" has thrown anything out of whack because it is impossible to observe that.

Then perhaps I'm not speaking to you. There are Christians on this board who will claim that, and those are the ones I am speaking to. But, I do agree with you.

Originally posted by GmoS719
Second, Adam & Eve's punishment for sin was banishment from the Garden of Eden...etc.

So was hard labor and painful child bearing and death. Yet, Christians have taken this further and said that all bad things occurring on this planet is a result of sin.

Originally posted by GmoS719
We are not being punished for their sin, We (as a human race) experience pain & suffering for the sins we continue to commit.

Are you saying that it is possible that someone could live without sinning? If not, why not? What happened?

Originally posted by GmoS719
God however, is not responsible for that pain & suffering. The Devil is.

I thought you said earlier that humans have pain and suffering because of their sin? Why is the devil responsible for that? Didn't god put that tree in the garden and tell them what would happen if they ate from it? If the devil is responsible, god doesn't have any responsibility for that? The devil couldn't tempt without a tree.

Originally posted by GmoS719
This quote shows you just how much this person knows.
Eve Bit the apple first and everything went wrong from there.
Maybe you should get your facts straight before you try to bash someone's beliefs.

This shows how much you know. Show where it says it was an apple.

Originally posted by GmoS719
Also, there is no scriptual proof of angels sinning. They did rebel though.
I guess this is something we will find out when we pass.

edit on 23-5-2012 by GmoS719 because: (no reason given)

Having pride and rebelling against god is sin. Well, at least it is for humans. Would it not be the same for angels? If not, what else can they do that would not be considered a sin, but is considered a sin for us?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by GmoS719
This quote shows you just how much this person knows.
Eve Bit the apple first and everything went wrong from there.
Maybe you should get your facts straight before you try to bash someone's beliefs.

This shows how much you know. Show where it says it was an apple.

How do we even know it was a fact?

Originally posted by snowspirit
How do we even know it was a fact?

I don't claim it was a fact. I'm just going by what the story and Christians say.

So was hard labor and painful child bearing and death. Yet, Christians have taken this further and said that all bad things occurring on this planet is a result of sin.

That's why I put "...etc" I probably should have ellaborated lol.

Are you saying that it is possible that someone could live without sinning? If not, why not? What happened?

We are not meant to be without sin (perfect), Our purpose is to strive to be as close to perfect as possible.
When I say we are being punished for sin, I'm referring to continous sin even though we know we are doing wrong. Drugs, Murder, Sexual immorality, Hate...etc.
If we sin & admit our fault & repent then that's a different story.

I thought you said earlier that humans have pain and suffering because of their sin? Why is the devil responsible for that? Didn't god put that tree in the garden and tell them what would happen if they ate from it? If the devil is responsible, god doesn't have any responsibility for that? The devil couldn't tempt without a tree.

Yes the Devil was created by God, but does God tempt you? No. Does God commit the sin? No.
We were given free will and when you choose to sin you are basically giving permission for the Devil to cause pain and suffering in your life.

reply to post by Hydroman


Not you, the other poster claimed as fact, that it was Eve that ate the "apple"

This quote shows you just how much this person knows.
Eve Bit the apple first and everything went wrong from there.
Maybe you should get your facts straight before you try to bash someone's beliefs.

I've heard people say it was a quince ( I don't know what that is), or a pomegranate

I have many doubts about many "facts" in the bible.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by GmoS719
This quote shows you just how much this person knows.
Eve Bit the apple first and everything went wrong from there.
Maybe you should get your facts straight before you try to bash someone's beliefs.

This shows how much you know. Show where it says it was an apple.

Ok, we all know it probably wasn't an apple.
Even though it is widely taught that it was an apple.
Might have been a fig though.

Originally posted by snowspirit
reply to post by Hydroman

 

Not you, the other poster claimed as fact, that it was Eve that ate the "apple"

This quote shows you just how much this person knows.
Eve Bit the apple first and everything went wrong from there.
Maybe you should get your facts straight before you try to bash someone's beliefs.

I've heard people say it was a quince ( I don't know what that is), or a pomegranate

I have many doubts about many "facts" in the bible.

When did I say "fact"?
You crazy

Let me straighten something out before you nuts get wild on me.
Anything I'm stating is obviously my opinion. That's what we do, we share opinions.
To each his own.

reply to post by GmoS719

You crazy

Probably

How come if Eve ate the apple(?), it was a sin, yet the angels only were rebellious when they did whatever it was that they did?
It seems people were held to a very high standard, but they didn't know any better at the time

Originally posted by GmoS719
We are not meant to be without sin (perfect), Our purpose is to strive to be as close to perfect as possible.

How do you know this?

Originally posted by GmoS719
When I say we are being punished for sin, I'm referring to continous sin even though we know we are doing wrong. Drugs, Murder, Sexual immorality, Hate...etc.
If we sin & admit our fault & repent then that's a different story.

So it just takes an, "I'm sorry" from the heart? If that's the case, why was bloodshed needed?

Originally posted by GmoS719
Yes the Devil was created by God, but does God tempt you? No. Does God commit the sin? No.
We were given free will and when you choose to sin you are basically giving permission for the Devil to cause pain and suffering in your life.

Did god plant the tree there in the garden amongst all the other edible trees? Why, if they couldn't eat from it? To give them free will? Could they not have free will without it? Didn't Adam freely name all the animals in the garden with whatever name he wanted to give them? It would be easy to exercise free will without the tree. Oh, and again don't forget they had no knowledge of good and evil before they ate the fruit...

Now, does the devil really cause pain and suffering in our lives? We aren't the ones responsible for it?

Originally posted by GmoS719
Ok, we all know it probably wasn't an apple.
Even though it is widely taught that it was an apple.
Might have been a fig though.

Or perhaps we've never seen this fruit?

Originally posted by snowspirit
How come if Eve ate the apple(?), it was a sin, yet the angels only were rebellious when they did whatever it was that they did?
It seems people were held to a very high standard, but they didn't know any better at the time

That's pretty much what I'm getting at with this thread.

reply to post by Hydroman

How do you know this?

Well, one can't be %100 sure, I go by what I've learned from reading the Bible.
First John 1:8 ,"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

So it just takes an, "I'm sorry" from the heart? If that's the case, why was bloodshed needed?

When you say bloodshed are you referring to Jesus dying on the cross?
Before Jesus, one would have to make sacrifices and payments to absolve them from their sin.
Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, paying all of our debts. So now...

First John 1:9 ,"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

Did god plant the tree there in the garden amongst all the other edible trees? Why, if they couldn't eat from it? To give them free will? Could they not have free will without it? Didn't Adam freely name all the animals in the garden with whatever name he wanted to give them? It would be easy to exercise free will without the tree. Oh, and again don't forget they had no knowledge of good and evil before they ate the fruit...

Now, does the devil really cause pain and suffering in our lives? We aren't the ones responsible for it?

I can only refer to Genesis 3 - "And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
So i'm guessing it was in the middle somewhere?
I can't tell you why God put the tree there. Any answer I gave you would be false.
They were created with free will, just not the knowlege of good and evil.

I guess you could say that humans are equally responisible for causing the pain and suffering. Atleast indirectly.
Galatians 6:8 says "For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life."

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by snowspirit
How come if Eve ate the apple(?), it was a sin, yet the angels only were rebellious when they did whatever it was that they did?
It seems people were held to a very high standard, but they didn't know any better at the time

That's pretty much what I'm getting at with this thread.

Well, if you are looking for an answer based on facts or evidence then you wont find one lol.
The bible doesn't say wether or not angels are capable of sin or not.
For all we know angels might have not been bound to serving God but could choose to serve him or not (rebel).
It's all speculation.