Exclusive: U.S. lets China bypass Wall Street for Treasury orders

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
You won't be able to use cars anyway, because you won't be able to import oil - in fact you'll probably be desperately trying to export all the oil you can for "hard currency" in order to import raw materials to make basic consumer goods.

No more subsidies for farmers - no oil means massive losses in farm production - problems with distribution - potentially starvation in cities.

Bankruptcy of a country is nothing like bankruptcy of a person or a company - that is why the EU is trying so desperately to avoid having any European countries (eg Greece) default.

Oh please man! Stop making a #ing mountain out of a relative mole hill.

you think the USA defaulting would be a molehill??

Or perhaps you are referring to the chances of it happening? If so I would agree - the chances are slim to none.

I wasn't talking about the "chances" - but what would happen if it DID occur.

How the HELL did all the former COMMUNIST COUNTRIES SURVIVE with nato and the stupid capitalist countries BLOCKADING THE HELL OUT OF THEM? Nobody wanted russian rubles, yugoslav dinars, whatever they used in cuba, etc.

And look what happened to them!

Of course it also isn't quite true - the communist block was had quite a large total economy and was about to run for decades as a large autarky - relatively self contained and largely trading among itself - they did a lot of external trade by barter (I can remember New Zealand trading butter and meat for cars and oil in the 1970's) - but even as a large autarky it eventually folded.

North Korea is a much smaller autarcky - and it isn't doing very well at all.

In the highly unlikely event of the USA defaulting the result would be somewhere in between IMO.

Some people know half the story and they pretend to know EVERYTHING.

Yep

they cut out the middle man so they don't have auctions where the price gets driven up

this is bad for the middle man, but lets be honest, if they want to buy US debt we will let them


"Their request to bid directly, in his view, came from a confidence that their money managers could buy U.S. debt more efficiently on their own than through Wall Street banks, which can often drive up the price of Treasuries at an auction if they know how much large clients are willing to pay. Such a practice that is not specifically illegal, though most traders would deem it unethical."


the only draw back here ws they continue to make profits on our debts and get stronger while we continue to drown in debt, but that would be the case if they had to go through a bank so I fail to see why this is so scary

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


I think the chances are extremely high that the USA may default soon and that China is helping them along in this regard. The american government is part of the nwo just like all the other non-socialist countries. The nwo is a capitalist conspiracy that robs hard working men/women of their net worth and gives it to the undeserving corporate plutocrats.

I have no problem with capitalism failing. OWS does not either I suppose. Why prolong a miserable system of exploitation? My only concern is that humanity learns its lesson and does not accept any digital capitalist currency from switzerland or anywhere else.

Communism(full socialism) is not the answer though, I think a mixed economy is! We need western european socialism with public banking, public transportation, public utilities, public parks/libraries, public airlines, public shipping, etc.

I am sorry if I was rude, but too many people seem to tolerate or even encourage global capitalism and it burns my ass to be frank. The ptb have done an awesome job of brainwashing folks into thinking capitalism equals "freedom and liberty" and demonising socialism by aquainting it to hitler/mussolini and demonising communism by aquanting it to stalinism. Guilty by association is flawed logic but repeat it often enough and it becomes common knowledge/misinformation.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


I don't see how this can or would apply to China owning US debt. If the US accepted dollars as a loan and then agreed to pay X amount of dollars back it doesn't mater if the dollar is worth 0 yen or 1 trillion trillion yen. They still have to pay back X amount dollars. If the US stops accepting dollars they still must pay back X dollars that they said they would when they accepted dollars.

I think what you're doing is equating that they accepted a number detached from any given currency as a loan and yet that number rises and lowers based on the value of currency. This can not be true because such a number does not exist as currency. e.g. If you put 500 dollars in the bank and the dollar devalues you still have 500 dollars in the bank.

So if they stop accepting dollars it may devalue the dollar but it does not interfere with how many dollars they must pay back because the loan can not be based on a number that is detached from currency.

reply to post by Bleeeeep


Yeah. If I lend you 500 dollars and next year when you are due to pay me back the dollar devalues by 50 percent then you still pay me 500 exactly. The fact that the dollar is devalued is immaterial from a payment perspective.

The bottom line is that contracts must be honored *as is*.

The devaluation matters in terms of purchasing power aka value. You used to buy a cadillac for 20,000 dollars and next year need 30,000 dollars to buy the same model and make.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

In the highly unlikely event of the USA defaulting the result would be somewhere in between IMO.

The US has already faulted ...

In the case of US/China relations, you peole are just "blind" downto literally being "stupid". You assume, totally incorrectly, that these are enemies and that China is an autacry. You are basing it on a "feeling", a "feeling" that is subjective to your own dreams of your own existance. In other words, not based on reality.

Even if judge moderately, the biggest autacry, since Rome ... is the USA. It's just a blank fact, period. And the US is also the biggest dictator ... but it is also quite smart. Because the US has changed the game of power. In earlier times, there were Kings and Queens, which on a chessboard could be "mated". You didn't kill them, you never needed to ... the modern chessboard, as in the case of US of A. Is a chessboard without a King and a Queen.

In your head, that's a good thing. But your wrong, it's a bad thing for you ... because the beast is still a beast. It's still a snake, but in this case, the snake has many heads, and you are only seing it's heads, while it's body is being hidden from sight. You don't see the body, or the financial "ruling" force that is behind it ... you only see the government figlets they put up. They finance their own dictator, and they finance their own media and they finance their own revolutions. It's still one body, it's just hidden from sight ... and it is still dictating to you and me, how to live.

We have less freedoms than our ancestors ... except today, there is no American to run to.

If you look carefully in China, you will see that every single major company is represented there. You have GPU, CPU, memory production .... just to name a few. Everything you use, is "Made in China", from the cloathes you wear to the electronics you use ... downto the rubber, in your shoes.

And now they pay your government, so it can keep on going ... now this is the "Communist country" you all fear. But, what you don't see is that there are more NASA facilities in China, than there are in the US.

Do you think it's a coincidence, that China has stealth fighters? Do you think it's coincidence that every major development, finds its way into China ... even if it's being "blocked" as in the case of the Australian gun?

Do you think it's a coincidence, that the United States is doing in Afghanistan, what the Soviet Union was trying to do for over 10 years?

If you think these "Victorers" of WWII are enemies ... you are an ignorant moron. It may well be, that the "official" policy of these nations is not parallel. But in that case, you should remember, that these goverments are merely the "replacable head" of a single beast (to use Greek mythology as a metaphore). Any head you cut off, will grow again ...

To kill this beast ... you need to kill it's body, not cut off the head ...

And you should also understand, that it doesn't matter what you call fascism. It's still fascism. A rose, by any other name ... is still a rose. So the US of A acting in a fascist fashion, means the US is a fascist country ... not that it's leader is fascist. The leader is replacable ... if the US of A commits genocide, like it's trying to do against Muslims, going so far as to call their 1 year children unwanted piglets in airport terminals. The US is being a fascist country, and it's not it's leader that is to blame ...

In the case of the US, it's not enough to cut off the head ... it's not enough to get rid off "An american Ghaddaffi". Or to go bomb some place, to get rid off "the American Saddam Hussein". It's not enough to put GWB face on a card, so the head of the beast can be cut off.

No, you need to kill this beasts ... body.

This is where you're all wrong, you are focusing on the elections. You are focused on this "face", the "Obama" face ... the "GWB" face. It's just a face ... and what you don't understand, but should try to ... is that this body, the very body that is behind this "face", also has other faces around the world. It's a one beast ... and behind the "official" goal, that you go elections for. This "beast" also has an ulterior goal, the NWO goal ... and this GOAL, demands it's got many faces, around the world ... but only a single body.

And in China, that face is "Chinese". And if the majority of the Chinese people think "communism", that face will be "communist". But it's only a face, represented for the Chinese people ... just as it's just a face, the "Obama" face, that you are looking at.

But these two faces, have the same body.

Originally posted by Bleeeeep

I don't see how this can or would apply to China owning US debt. If the US accepted dollars as a loan and then agreed to pay X amount of dollars back it doesn't mater if the dollar is worth 0 yen or 1 trillion trillion yen. They still have to pay back X amount dollars. If the US stops accepting dollars they still must pay back X dollars that they said they would when they accepted dollars.

I think what you're doing is equating that they accepted a number detached from any given currency as a loan and yet that number rises and lowers based on the value of currency. This can not be true because such a number does not exist as currency. e.g. If you put 500 dollars in the bank and the dollar devalues you still have 500 dollars in the bank.

So if they stop accepting dollars it may devalue the dollar but it does not interfere with how many dollars they must pay back because the loan can not be based on a number that is detached from currency.

edit on 22-5-2012 by Bleeeeep because: (no reason given)

Money is traded, since its traded, price changed. China have special relation to USD. They peg their Yuan to USD, and they dont want to trade Yuan, anywhere USD goes Yuan sure follows. All sounds good like you said. One for one.

The USD reach a high value (like now ?) and China can buy/sell the USD as they want (the topic), all still goes well. Then...you guys stop buying China junk. China is upset...

If China stop the pegging, and think they receive not much money from USD trades, change peg to Ruble/Gold/Dinar/whatever. You should start running by this time. Then China want to sell/reclaim the debt, big problem arise, cause they can bypass the Wall Street/the market. If they dump the USD, think what will happen to USD ? - Value goes lower and lower and lower and ....

Now, remember that China release the peg ? Their Yuan is in comfortable place. Suddenly the 1 to 1 debt doesnt apply anymore, its gonna be 1.5 to 1 or worse. The debt will keep increase, double or triple what USA have now. Suddenly you need to sell the entire house to pay the debt, living room stuff not enough anymore and the dollar keep shrinking. As somebody mentioned, 500 now is 500 tomorrow but the value shrink, before you know it, you might need USD100 just to buy a burger.

So...good luck

reply to post by NullVoid


I have to ask, do the chinese enjoy fake communism?

Are you chinese and can you answer me this question?

What kind of message does it send to the old fashioned left wing maoists?

Don't the chinese public feel EXPLOITED working for american companies for very low wages?

In my opinion both the chinese and russian governments are TRAITORS of socialism!

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

I don't see how this can or would apply to China owning US debt. If the US accepted dollars as a loan and then agreed to pay X amount of dollars back it doesn't mater if the dollar is worth 0 yen or 1 trillion trillion yen. They still have to pay back X amount dollars. If the US stops accepting dollars they still must pay back X dollars that they said they would when they accepted dollars.

As has been pointed out, yes the number of $$'s doesn't change - but their value will - so China spending US$'s to buy up resources or influence or whatever will be able to do much less with that >US$1 Trillion they have.

and as has also been pointed out, the US$ is effectively ho china trades Yuan by maintaining a fixed ratio - and by buying US$'s is how china can maintain that fixed rate. If they had to trade the Yuan openly they would be faced with the Impossible Trinity and would have to compromise.

At the moment China can get away with the fixed exchange rate part of the trinity because the Yuan is effectively set at its rate by the US$ - ie the US that is carrying the debt risk for China's economic policies. (all IMO of course)

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by NullVoid

 

I have to ask, do the chinese enjoy fake communism?

Are you chinese and can you answer me this question?

What kind of message does it send to the old fashioned left wing maoists?

Don't the chinese public feel EXPLOITED working for american companies for very low wages?

In my opinion both the chinese and russian governments are TRAITORS of socialism!

I'm not Chinese. The trade is not internal, its between countries.
Yes its debatable the current communism is the pure one or not, I guess not.
The main topic here is China ability to control America.

Bow to your new master for they have bought you before you even knew you are for sale.

Originally posted by NullVoid

The main topic here is China ability to control America.

No, the main topic is China can now bypass the middle man in purchaisng US Treasuries.

Bow to your new master for they have bought you before you even knew you are for sale.

The US Treasury?

www.businessinsider.com...-federal-reserve-16

Other Americans?

www.businessinsider.com...-all-the-treasury-owes-foreigners-and-foreign-governments-4514-trillion-dollars-18

reply to post by NullVoid


The same people who are now enslaving the chinese are the same people who are enslaving americans.

It is called free trade; ie no tariffs! It is wall street orientated greed mixed with zionism.

Get a clue man!

[long post retracted]
Oh well, never-mind, you win , suit yourself, for now, enjoy the colourful debt clock
and these

Originally posted by NullVoid

and these

edit on 24-5-2012 by NullVoid because: (no reason given)

Sigh. You do get that is a list of foreign investors, right? DOMESTIC investors still trump China by a significant portion, as I've shown you several times now in previous posts.

I don't think that is what is going to happen. More gloom and doom here again. I will NEVER trust a date posted on A.T.S again. WHY, because none of them came true. END TRANSMISSION. I would think that the u.s would rather take out the golden pen and sign a paper that states we owe, nothing to china or japan. There, written in ink on golden paper with a golden pen signed by all, who ripped us off. The ultimate write off and game changer to get what they ultimately planned in the beginning. WWiii.

Originally posted by Gmoneycricket
I look forward to our new debt overlords,
while I was in California,
I learned their rules.
they are lot simpler,
and faster then ours.
They told me,
No Credit,
No Coupons!
Cash and Carry,
works for me.

and perhaps this is indeed their reason to buy debt like this... to be able to change the rules of the game where they can after ages of frustration from dealing with the inefficient loopholes.

what's interesting to me is WHY this deal was made, it must have been some kind of last resort for paybacks after some other US concocted scheme didn't work.

What worries me if we fall under more and more Chinese influence are certain aspects that DO NOT seem as efficient as the Chinese can be. For example, extreme use of energy when they have quite extensive industrialization and make all kinds of tech. Why are they not shelling out solar equipment like crazy to compensate at least to a degree, because they could... as some kind of large scale government program.... or are they? Who knows. Some say china is nothing like the way Americans imagine it. What we hear about is a country full of pollution, industrialization and cold/hungry people who have to work very hard for very little... which SCREAMS corruption... but then people go over there to vacation and talk about how much they like it and how simple and efficient things are with a rich culture and lot's of useful age old AND modern knowledge.

The greedy got us into this, we don't need more of the greedy. We need the smarter, greener, more equal way.

At the same time, it's sadly humorous.

I guess we will find out soon enough. No way can they be gullible enough to buy US debt like that, when the real value is in the resources of the debt itself and certainly not the payout.

I guess this means we won't be going to war with China as some fear.

All they really need to do is partner with other countries holding a lot of our debt and just show up and start implementing some new business policies... because the fact is... business rules government.

Unless of course our leaders have more brilliant ideas they wanna try.

reply to post by stanguilles7


Yeah, you probably right. Maybe I just fear mongering

Do you know China can override the Feds now ? Is this a good news ?
China can buy the T-bill directly, its quicker and better I guess, and less open to market speculation. Looking at debt ceiling, I guess the next President got to raise it once again. Maybe if Ron Paul win, it will get better ?

Anyway, what did they do with all these trillions ?

I think 2012 will happen, not because of natural cause, its man made. Probably inflation ?
Hey you can never be too sure these days. Good luck guys.

not to derail but concerning my own posts... look at this quote...

"The answer to the question of what country uses the most solar panels is dependent on how it is measured. The leading countries are Cypress, Israel, Japan, and the United States. Germany, the Scandinavian countries, and Italy are also significant consumers of solar panels. China’s usage is a bit of a mystery, but they have been involved in training scientists and technicians from developing countries."

Why would they not be the number one user of solar energy... THEY MAKE EVERYTHING.

You see, they don't ave to BUY it... just make it. So how is this information gathered? By purchases or what?

and on that thought... look at what i just searched....

"China manufactures the most solar panels in the world. China also ranks #2 in solar energy use. Surprisingly, South Korea consumes the most solar energy and has the largest solar power plant in the world."

OF COURSE they make the most, but as large as China is and with what they manufacture... they should be using a heck of a lot more than south korea. how did south korea manage this?

maybe they are just busy coming up with mathematical take over plans and will let their people build themselves plenty of solar panels LATER.

I'm just saying, if you are good at being efficient and you are the number one producer, what is your excuse for not using it? it has to be greed. I don't know.

all i know is if they buy up land and business on a large enough scale, they will soon be making rules.

that's just the way it works. It can happen slow a little at a time or it can happen fast if it comes to a big enough head like people are in here projecting.