Arianism - still kicking

reply to post by jmdewey60

Would you like to respond to my post? (about fundamentalism)

Sure:

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

What do you mean by "go take care of"? I post here for fun. It's best to not get worked up over things one reads on the internet, it's not healthy. No need to "take care of" anyone.

yet you are one of the most annoying posters I've seen, therefore, you should use that quality for good instead of evil. Go take care of those who need to be taken care of to improve their own lives and the lives of others instead of driving decent people nuts.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Would you like to respond to my post? (about fundamentalism)

Sure:

Thanks for giving a good example of the type of mentality fundamentalists have.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Anytime. I've been dealing with you for years, I know where this convo is going to go and the lies and slander you'll soon interject into it. Sorry, been there done that. Try it on someone else. Most Christians just ignore you completely, be satisfied I still somewhat respond to your posts.

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

What do you mean by "go take care of"? I post here for fun. It's best to not get worked up over things one reads on the internet, it's not healthy. No need to "take care of" anyone.

yet you are one of the most annoying posters I've seen, therefore, you should use that quality for good instead of evil. Go take care of those who need to be taken care of to improve their own lives and the lives of others instead of driving decent people nuts.

Doing the same thing over and over again and hoping each time for different results is insanity F.Y.I. If you demand control of others posts/opinions perhaps a public forum isn't the best place for you. I suggest starting a blog where you can control who posts what to your page. Or better yet, take it from me, don't care what other people say, place your quality of life on things that are immovable and unchangeable and you won't be swayed by the posts of random folks on the internet. It's emotionally unhealthy.

Well, this thread is pretty much kaput, someone IM me if anything new gets brought up in regards to Arianism...

Peace.

It says the Lord (YHVH) appeared as a man with two angels and spoke to Abraham face to face. So I believe the Lord appeared as a man with two angels and spoke to Abraham face to face.

reply to post by NOTurTypical




My previous post clearly shows what the cited scriptures actually say.

Reading the entire account of Abraham, the Lord appears with and without the presence of men.

The men are later identified as angels.

Abraham and Lot both bow to the ground in the presence of these angels and address the Lord.





Brother, you need to read all the surrounding verses for context.






The bible account of Abraham in no way supports the trinity doctrine.

reply to post by dusty1


The two "men" with the Lord were angels, all three however appeared as men. Use just a thimble-full of contextual theology. The text says all three appeared as men, the text says two of those "men" were in fact angels who later went to Sodom and Gomorrah. The text says "the LORD" was the third one who appeared to Abraham as a man. None of the three were human men.

There are NUMEROUS Christophanies in the OT, Genesis 18 is just one example.

And most likely Abraham was just another crazy dude running around the desert with an occult following.

I see wisdom in JCs words, but not from Abraham.

Judaism is a branch of Zoroastrianism.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The text says "the LORD" was the third one who appeared to Abraham as a man. None of the three were human men.

The three were not men but angels.

The text does not say that the 3rd man was the Lord. You are simply assuming that.


Lot also bowed before the 2 angels and also addressed them as my Lord, in Genesis 19 as I already showed you.


The three "men" are all introduced with equal importance in Genesis 18 ( Abraham even instructs Sarah to make three measures of fine meal).



Later two are identified specifically as angels, but are addressed as Lord by Lot.




The encounter with Lot and Abraham play out the same way. Abraham and Lot both speak to the Lord with these "men" present.


In chapters 17 and 18 Abraham addresses the Lord, with none of these "men" present.

reply to post by dusty1

The three were not men but angels.

Duh, I never said there were 3 men, I said they appeared as men. And the text only says 2 were angels, one of them that appeared as a man was the Son of God, "the LORD".. The other two who appeared as men, who were NOT "the Lord", were angels that accompanied Him and after the convo with Abraham went to Sodom and Gomorrah to destroy it.

*ahem*

The two "men" with the Lord were angels, all three however appeared as men.

See, the three men APPEARED AS men..

The text does not say that the 3rd man was the Lord. You are simply assuming that.

The says exactly that as a matter of fact, and it says the third man which is identified several times as "the Lord" stays and continues His conversation with Abraham as the other two angels leave and heard towards Sodom and Gomorrah. It's called a "Christophany", an OT appearance of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. Joshua chapter 5 is another prime example. Christ emerges from the cloud that guided the Jews in the wilderness for 40 years and speaks with Joshua. God guided the Jews in the cloud, then this "Angel of the Lord's Host" steps out of the cloud. The Hebrew basically says the "captain" or chief of the Lord's host (angels).


Read the FIRST VERSE of Genesis 18. Then verse 13, and 14, then read verse 17, and verse 20, as well as verse 22 where the Lord stays and talks to Abraham as the two angels head to S&G. Verses 26, 27, 30, and FINALLY VERSE 33!!!

THE LORD. The same LORD who confirms with Abraham about preserving the cities if just a few righteous men can be found in the city. "THE LORD" is not an angel, that is the Son of God, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ.

In chapters 17 and 18 Abraham addresses the Lord, with none of these "men" present.

No, one of the "men" is the Lord, and Abraham only confirms with that "man", the two angels remain silent, which makes sense considering the other one who appeared as a man was God Almighty. I'd be silent too. Anyways, the Lord stays and finishes the convo with Abraham and Sarah, and the two angels with Him continue on with their journey to Sodom and Gomorrah to destroy the cities.

This cannot be the first time you've ever heard of a "Christophany" before.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No angel anywhere at any time is ever identified as "THE LORD". That's a title for God Himself.

Again, that is not what the scriptures say.

Genesis 19 15-18

15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. 16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. 17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

The angels tell Lot to escape to the mountain.

Lot replies.

18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:

Genesis 19:18



Lot says to them, the angels, "Oh, not so, my Lord"

He addresses the angels in the same manner that Abraham addresses the Lord with the men or man present in chapter 18.



In these two chapters

3 men= 3 angels

reply to post by dusty1


Go back to Genesis 18. Abraham isn't addressing the one "man" as "the Lord", the TEXT is identifying that one as "The Lord". Enormous difference. Sarah also refers to Abraham as "my lord" as a form of respect, we all know Abraham isn't God Almighty. But when the text identifies something as "the Lord", well, I'd pay attention to that.

What do those verses say I told you to refer back to earlier?

3 men= 3 angels

No, the text identifies one of them as "the Lord". One is the Son of God. The same "Angel of the Lord's host" who appears in Joshua 5 and accepts worship.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, one of the "men" is the Lord, and Abraham only confirms with that "man", the two angels remain silent, which makes sense considering the other one who appeared as a man was God Almighty. I'd be silent too.

Oh, they speak.

Lets read the encounter again.

And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

Just like Lot, Abraham addresses men, (more than one) as my Lord or (Jehovah). We already agree that 2 are angels.

Verse 5 THEY clearly say:

And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

again they speak verse 9

9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, the text identifies one of them as "the Lord". One is the Son of God. The same "Angel of the Lord's host" who appears in Joshua 5 and accepts worship.

Again Genesis 18 verse 3 Abraham addresses them as My Lord


I don't believe Abraham is worshiping. verse 2 says that

And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

If this is constitutes worship ( I don't think it does), and only Jesus would accept it, why do the 2 angels in Genesis chapter 19 accept the exact same thing from Lot????

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

We know that it is 2 angels in this encounter with Lot.


But in Genesis 19 verse 18 Lot addresses the angels as My Lord

8 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:

Not lords or Lords, but My Lord or Jehovah.

reply to post by dusty1

Again Genesis 18 verse 3 Abraham addresses them as My Lord

Sure, now what does the text say in verse 1? What does the text say in all the other verses I mentioned above?

Joshua 5:14:

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

The angel didn't tell him not to worship him as do angels when men fall down to worship. Falling on one's face in worship is quite different than bowing down a knee as one would do to a king or dignitary.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The angel didn't tell him not to worship him as do angels when men fall down to worship. Falling on one's face in worship is quite different than bowing down a knee as one would do to a king or dignitary.

Then why do the two angels in Genesis 19:1 let Lot do the exact same thing that Abraham does?????????

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The angel didn't tell him not to worship him as do angels when men fall down to worship. Falling on one's face in worship is quite different than bowing down a knee as one would do to a king or dignitary.

Then why do the two angels in Genesis 19:1 let Lot do the exact same thing that Abraham does?????????

Neither Abraham nor Lot fall prostrate to their face in worship, they bow a knee and look at the ground. Contrast that with what Joshua does in chapter 5 of Joshua. He falls prostrate with his face to the ground. In the other examples, the common custom was to bow a knee and to stare at the ground, in an act that symbolized submission. Quite different than laying prostrate in worship. Think of the difference between Tebowing and laying on one's face in worship, that's the closes examples to contrast.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Contrast that with what Joshua does in chapter 5 of Joshua.

Brother.

That scripture has nothing to do with our discussion of Abraham and Lot in Genesis.

I am aware that Christ had a pre human existence. I would have to do more research as to where he may have appeared.

But I do not agree with your interpretations of Genesis.


The God of Abraham is clearly Jehovah, God Almighty.

13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Acts 3:13

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Have you ever been in the presence of an angel?

I have. I can tell you that my knees fell out from under me. The energy was so intense it was like trying to stand under Niagra Falls.

Anyone who finds themselves in the presence of an angel will fall to their knees. That's just the way it is.