Gonzo Hermeneutics: Michael Harner, George Ripley and Don Juan Matos

...and now Maybe Charles Fort!?

Good afternoon/evening ladies and germs.

I am beside myself at the moment. I am floored by a quote that I did not go looking for but found by accident while researching Charles Fort...

"--a huge, black form, like a whale, in the sky, and it drips red drops as if attacked by celestial swordfishes

Charles Fort. Lo!, P.1

For any of you that have been following this thread you will see right away how that is one rare snippet. I have dug and dug to no avail in Lo! trying to figure out what the hell Charles is talking about and I am coming up with nothing. It precedes a whole chapter on animal life (frogs, fish snails) falling spontaneously from the sky but the chapter does not cover the whale-like-being. Anyone have any ideas, or maybe more experience with Fort? It is a very strange quote from Charlie Fort who died in 1932.

?

X.

Lo!

Would you all like to see this right-side-up.

I am sorry for that. I was careless. But I have to admit that there was something about the slight disorientation that I felt from it being upside down that I found pleasing in a weird way in my inner ear. Weird, I know, but that's me; too much Bowie?

I shall you tell with plain declaration
Where, how, and what is my generation
Omogeni is my Father
And Magnesia is my Mother
And Azot truly is my Sister
And Kibrick forsooth is my Brother
The Serpent of Arabia is my name
The which is leader of all this game
That sometime was both wood and wild
And now I am both meek and mild
The Sun and the Moon with their might
Have chastised me that was so light
My wings that me brought
Hither and thither where I thought
Now with their might they down me pull,
And bring me where they will
The Blood of mine heart I wish
Now causeth both joy and blisse
And dissolveth the very Stone
And knitteth him ere he have done
Now maketh hard that was lix
And causeth him to be fix
Of my blood and water I wish
Plenty in all the World there is
It runneth in every place
Who it findeth he hath grace
In the World it runneth over all
And goeth round as a ball
But thou understand well this
Of the worke thou shalt miss
Therefore know ere thou begin
What he is and all his kin
Many a name he hath full sure
And all is but one Nature
Thou must part him in three
And then knit him as the Trinity
And make them all but one
Lo here is the Philosophers Stone

www.levity.com...

If you look there it says, "The Serpent of Arabia", but I find it even more intriguing that Ripley took the time to delineate "Luna Treffens" which I think roughly translates as "Where the Moon meets" or maybe "Moon barrier". Any other takers on the translation?

Thanks, indeed, to Timewalker for catching that.

X.

[Mannschaften, Gruppen etc] to meet
[Meinungen] to clash, to come into conflict
[Kugeln, Gegenstände etc] to hit each other Treffen Tref•fen nt , -s, - meeting, (Sport, Mil) encounter ins Treffen führen (Mil) to send into battle (fig) to put forward

source

reply to post by Xoanon


"Of my blood and water I wish
Plenty in all the World there is
It runneth in every place
Who it findeth he hath grace
In the World it runneth over all
And goeth round as a ball
But thou understand well this
Of the worke thou shalt miss
Therefore know ere thou begin
What he is and all his kin
Many a name he hath full sure
And all is but one Nature
Thou must part him in three
And then knit him as the Trinity "




this section i particularly dig..... pretty deep and excellent....... and something i finally think i realized about that image above.............

all but one nature but parted into three......... i thought this might relate to the ball of the dragon,..,,.,.,. the dragon may represent time im not sure,,,.,.,,. but the ball if you notice it is separated into 3 sections.,,.,. the bottem blue reminds me of water,,,,the upper left reminds me of green/earth....... and the upper right may be fire or bronze/metal/ minerall..,.,.,.,.. this is just something i thought of,,, might be incorrect but maybe you can work with this line of thought..,,.,.., also there may be signifigance with the splitting into 3,.,.,. with mathematics,..,., the golden ratio,,.,.,. or how it takes man ( 1) and women ( 1) to make a child ( 1) ....,,. reproduction,,, division,,, multiplication.......

but yea,,,, you are the man!! and i really love that section you just put up with that blurb i quoted above...

Humans have been correctly intuiting mysterious processes through our stories maybe for as long as we've had linguistic capability. What we are now able to quantify, and qualify, and study and substantiate; we formally grasped the essence of through the careful arrangement of symbols and narrative.

For instance, the space faring protowhale (sperm whale, ha!) speciating into all earthly lifeforms, the dragon's spermatozaesque heartsblood appearing to fertilize the eggy earth: it seems like an allegory for panspermia to me.



Also striking is the depiction of the dragon, who is usually a stand-in for ravenous self interest or the limbic brain, as an Attis-y figure, self sacrifice and regeneration not usually being associated with our scaly friend.

reply to post by Eidolon23


nice!!!!! I think there may be something too that for sure!

you made me think that like the nature of the universe is intwined and repeating...... in the way that the universe was like what we know of as a being,,,,,maybe energy working together to do things,,,,,, but as life on earth dies and gives way to knew life,,,,, maybe the universe as it wore down from its once more perfect energetic state,, it gave rise to more, yet lesser forms of perfection,,,,,, like a giant magnificent whale,,, that then dies, and decomposes into a universe of maggots and bugs and bacteria,,,,,,, as its insinuated life on earth started in the smallest and simplest and crudest sizes,,,, and discovered its ability to work its way up,, seeking some sort of perfection or at least something else.,.,.,.,,..,,.,.,.,.

reply to post by ImaFungi


Directed panspermia (differs from the classical randomized model) in modern mythos:

1. He drank it to sacrifice himself and seed Earth with genetic material to generate life.

2. He was an Engineer (an alien race that 'engineered' life). Presumably he was quite high in the Engineer social order as it seems to have been almost a religious ceremony so he could have been specifically 'chosen' for the task.

3. I think he was on Earth. [EDIT] Ridley Scott has said in an interview that it could have been any planet, it isn't specific.

4. I'm guessing that his DNA broke down and mutated to different forms to seed the building blocks of life.

5. I think that yes, he did know it would kill him.

6. I think the scene was to give a bit more depth to the Engineers and establish them as their namesake.

7. I guess it was around 3 billion years ago if it was the true genesis of life on earth, but this figure could be wildly off.

www.quora.com...

I totally agree with this guy's interpretation, and would like to note that we have another Atiis figure here.

reply to post by Eidolon23


yes but this doesnt explain the nature of such beings...

How were they created? natural formation along with the natural formation of the universe? ( even though this hypothesis would be denying the natural formation of life on earth?)

and this doesnt explain the nature of the universe..... because like above it assumes that life doesnt need an engineer to come into existance,,, and if that is the case,,,, that the universe formed and it was a natural probability and an exact happening occurrence that out of the very materials,, patterns, forces and structures and energy of the universe,,, mini forms of life could rise up and exist then what does that say about the nature of the universe,,,,, what the heck is it,,, why and how is it...... is anything above the universe ( meaning in the know) or is the universe all that exists and all that are in a part of the same flowing event of existence,,, even though some can evolve to infinitely higher heights the low simple mechanisms,,,, there can become god like engineers,,, but they can never become powerful enough to over take the whole of the universe?

reply to post by ImaFungi


I agree entirely.

Recursion and continuum: where did that protowhale come from?

And how do we display a creepy degree of prescience when we anticipate scientific truths in our myths? Could there be a standing wave of Information that we are contributors to/beneficiaries of?

reply to post by Eidolon23


it could be that given the circumstances of the universe there is a probability of certain things occuring,,,, thats why laws and patterns exist,,,,,, and reason and ration,..,.,.,. I think if the universe is a natural creation and we are a product that,,,, we have a very close relationship with the universe,,,,, made in gods image,,,,,, like a father handing down its traits to its child,,,,,, we gain all our information from our senses and external reality,,, which is given to us in its specific form,,,, so there is a limited number of puzzle pieces missing for us to imagine the reasons and natures of things,,.,,.

i really dont know about the myths being similar to science,,,,,,, science discovers the true nature of reality,,, how god would percieve reality or if the reality was aware of itself exactly as it is that is what science is,,, seeing reality exactly as it is............ since we exist in this reality and are of it,,,, maybe we have a link of intuition with the truth,,,, since we and reality are truth,,,, in the fact that we do exist,.,.,.,.,, so maybe occasionally,,,, we know that not every myth relates to science,,, but you are surprised with the ancients and mystics going into meditation and trances and imagining and intuiting and soul searching the true nature of reality with their mind as if they were god reverse engineering reality,,,,, what would god do....,., I always thought that it was cool i think its a quote from einstein about when ever he would think of trying to solve his law of physics problems and equations he would try to imagine how god/ or i guess a supreme and perfect intelligence would establish or allow things to be..

Originally posted by Eidolon23
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

I agree entirely.

Recursion and continuum: where did that protowhale come from?

And how do we display a creepy degree of prescience when we anticipate scientific truths in our myths? Could there be a standing wave of Information that we are contributors to/beneficiaries of?

May I hazard to suggest that while I see where you coming from that you are perhaps over thinking this. For example, the quote was that it was 'whale-like', but how was it whale-like? In size, motion, etc? Either way, it wasn't a whale, it was like a whale, that doesn't even mean that it looked like a whale, just that, it was reminiscient, by some quality, to a whale. It is all too easy to match what is, with what might have been based on the failings of linguistic expression.

Scientific truths are just problems that have been explored and explained through measured study. The problems already existed, have always existed, since recognition. Explanation, of anything, given the provision of the necessary, or approved, linguistic definers, is only a matter of time. Therefore, the 'truth' always was, it only awaited science to define it.

So a very definate 'yes' to your third question.

Also the dragon, just because the droplets are shaped like sperm, based on our current understanding of what sperm look like under a microscope, should not detract from the more obvious, that they are drops of menstrual blood. It is all too easy to apply our meaning or interpretation based on our microscopic knowledge of how things look, but that only serves to dissolve the intended meaning. And, most dragons, in mythology, represented the feminine principles. Why would a female dragon be dropping sperm from what is clearly a vaginal opening? Alchemically, we could surmise that they are the combined fluids post-coitus...but even that is reading too far into what is already clearly being shown. The alchemical process is taking place through the interaction of the dragons menstrual blood and the elements of the earth and solar system, no need to read anymore into that than what is being depicted.

Originally posted by Biliverdin

Why would a female dragon be dropping sperm from what is clearly a vaginal opening? Alchemically, we could surmise that they are the combined fluids post-coitus...

Yeah, I'll buy that.

Those guys were very into their post-coital fluids.

reply to post by Biliverdin


nice!!! the feminine is the one that gives birth to new life...... could be depicting a mother passing on its blood for new creation... in this case some mystical dragon mother of nature.,,.,.,. maybe to show the fierceness of distant and ancient universal ways,,, the massive quantities and forces and energies at first formed aggressiveness and defensive, mighty and warlike beings,,, but time refined this way,,,,,,, the cosmic forces and energies are fierce like that of a dragon,,, and perhaps it is these forces over time that have given birth to the refined and diverse life on earth,,,,,,

just another thought,.,.,.

Bilverdin anymore you think about that dragon photo and the poem beneath it?

your insight was dandy.

reply to post by ImaFungi


Dragons, generally, are associated with water, which is why there is something in Eidolon23's idea of panspermia. Especially given what we now understand about the role of meteorites in Earth's creation, and of their bringing not just life giving water, but also the amino acids and elements that are the building blocks of that life.

I'll have another look at the poem later, I haven't got the time right now, and I was concentrating on the visual. Not sure I can add anymore than I have done already though.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

nice!!! the feminine is the one that gives birth to new life...... could be depicting a mother passing on its blood for new creation... in this case some mystical dragon mother of nature.,,.,.,. maybe to show the fierceness of distant and ancient universal ways,,, the massive quantities and forces and energies at first formed aggressiveness and defensive, mighty and warlike beings,,, but time refined this way,,,,,,, the cosmic forces and energies are fierce like that of a dragon,,, and perhaps it is these forces over time that have given birth to the refined and diverse life on earth,,,,,,

just another thought,.,.,.

Bilverdin anymore you think about that dragon photo and the poem beneath it?

The poem is about Arabia in a very literal sense, most particularly about the Dragon's powerlessness, due to the lack of water for it to carry it's life giving force. Arabia as the locus of demise. It needs rocks to inhabit and hold the water, those rocks are broken down to become sand...the land is hard and barren...it is, it seems to me, a lament to a lack of fertility...and it's resultant desertification. The illustration, I think, represents the seperation of the dragon from the Earth. The dragon has lost it's wings, the one becoming two...not sure...the poem further mentions a trinity, so perhaps the serpent, the Earth and the Sun/Moon alliance, fragmented, is the cause of the barren-ness, or death cycle...the philosopher's stone being, therefore, the unified whole that creates life. Perhaps?

That would be my take on it anyway...

Hi folks,

I wish I had a bunch of time for this today, but I don't so this will be short. Then I will come back and we can play later if you are all still up for it.

Thank you for all of your responses, they have been very interesting.

Just wanted to say that there is a fairly large body of literature and tradition to draw from with which to try to understand Ripley.

Which is not to say that anyone is 'wrong', necessarily. Many of the greatest minds to ever apply themselves to the study to this crap would agree that we have all been 'correct' about alchemy from the time we first sought to understand the natural world when we were children.

But, if we are going to get wrapped up in the Ripley Scroll we should probably keep our canoe within the current of tradition from which Ripley's imperative has sprung. It is fun and sometimes 'enlightening' to compare 'alchemies' from different parts of the world, and that may serve us well at some point with Ripley but let's stay in his 'hometown' for a while and see what we can do.

To really appreciate what is going on with the dragon we would need to take the whole scroll in to account. That really requires a thread of it's own, but I can help us all to understand this better by posting this...



There are your 'spermatozoa' drops again, this time gold. More importantly we have the familiar theme of transferring the wings of the bird to the 'globe'. The Ripley scroll describes a sequence and this golden bird with the head of a king comes before the dragon in this sequence.

May I suggest that the 'drops' are a convention of medieval art that is meant to represent the active state of a fluid? It is going somewhere with a purpose.

Also, dragons mean water in China, and not in the west, where our present dragon is from.

The 'vagina' spin on the dragon's wound is a new one. And accurate in a way that maybe no one expects.

That type of wound that you see in the dragons breast is meant to represent the same thing alchemically as the wound in the alchemical pelican's breast, from which it feeds its young.



Now remember these lines...

"The Blood of mine heart I wish
Now causeth both joy and blisse"

and...

"Of my blood and water I wish
Plenty in all the World there is
It runneth in every place
Who it findeth he hath grace "

This givingness from loving kindness was meant by the philosophers of art to represent a universal Christ-like quality present in all living things, but especially expressed under certain conditions. It was not meant to represent a vagina directly. I would recommend reflection in order to avoid impulsiveness around this idea.

There are whole volumes, some very good, that cover the seemingly unsoundable depths of Alchemical symbolism. I would just like to suggest that we start there for a while, I have a bunch of wild thoughts about gravitation and genetics and stuff too. But often when I compare what I think to what older, wiser heads think, I find that I have gone pretty far off base and that I can straighten myself out by re-orienting myself based on the basic symbolism. Like this...

"Omogeni is my Father
And Magnesia is my Mother
And Azot truly is my Sister
And Kibrick forsooth is my Brother "

We will take the first three, 'Kibrick' is a brain breaker, you can all have fun with that one...

Simply, Omogeni, the dragon's father, is the Sun, the underlying hypostasis of all that is, the homogeneity...

And Magnesia is the dragon's mother, she is the Moon. The 'white magnesia' or magnesia alba is the source of what is referred to as the philosophic mercury.

The sister of the dragon is Azot (Azoth). She is the universal medicine that can render any substance to it's three constituent parts and re-assemble it in to a higher order of functioning or being. But further, Azot is considered to be the spirit of God that courses in the hearts and minds of men, pushing them to strive for understanding of all of God's creation.

As the Dragon is fixed in place, chomping on the Moon, wingless, his sister is in non-stop motion.

certainly there is more. But I gotta go. Just wanted to bring some of that to the thread.



X.

Ah,

Also please notice that the dragon is an 'Ouroboros' and has incorporated the Moon in to the recursion. Into the system?



And I wanted to add that folks that study the Ripley Scroll are often uncertain on how to deal with the 'Sun Rays' 'above' the Moon as they extend to the part of the scroll above it.

ATS Philosopheres!!!!!!!!!!!

You rock.



QOTSA: The Medicine of Metals.

Than you OP I much enjoyed reading your post. I wondered if you have ever read "The Cosmic Serpent DNA and the origins of knowledge" by Jeremy Narby? It covers quite a few of the subjects your post touched upon. I think you are onto something I believe the story of our origins is encoded in our DNA. Inherent knowledge that we are not aware of on the surface but it bleeds over in the form of religious belief, dreams, stories, art and poetry. It is the common thread that runs through them all. There is no separation between science, religion, truth, and madness it is all the same it is only the limitations of our senses and understanding that makes us think there is. If you have not already read this book I would strongly recommend it. It combines shamanism, molecular biology, genetics, art, and Mayan beliefs and illustrates the common thread found in each. The twins, intertwined serpents, the DNA helix.

I have a great interest in ethnobotanicals and have never thought about the likeness of the Ayahuasca vine to the structure of DNA or that out the vine itself is not "active" alone and must be combined with a MAOI found in another plant. Think about it of all the plants in the jungle the shaman knew to combine these two. When asked how they knew the told the author the plants told them. We share the same DNA thus we share the same knowledge. WE have however forgotten how to access it.

I have done much personal research over the years and have so much information I would love to share I however fear being a rule breaker on a site I enjoy very much. It does bleed through from time to time.

The Bird of Hermes is my name; Eating my wings to make me tame.



Ok guys and gals. I'm digging into it. There is so much symbolism in this scroll, it will take me a little while to pull a lot of my resources together.

Like Biliverden said, don't put so much science into it. The symbolism is always pretty straight forward. X, IMHO, you are correct when applying the twofold view of things. Spiritual then material. You have to tap the First via the second (Hermes Field) to make the third. Use the nous.

You have to look at the entire scroll. Top is the Black Sea, Middle is the White Sea, Bottom is the Red Sea. Then The Bird of Hermes(cock;active ), then the fixed (passive;water) ouroborous dragon releasing the menstrum on the volatile?? Working on that one. The feathers are always going to represent air, the drops water. Gold (Sol) active, white (Moon) Passive. The philosopher at the very top, the fool at the bottom. As below so Above; As Above so below

The whole 7 step process (three fold) is also here; Limojon De St Didier; Le triomphe Hermetique



And a simpler version here: