Christianity in one word: Anti-homosexual

Originally posted by SoulReaper
You haven't spent much time with Real christians have you..

I never met a "fake" christian..or at least someone whom introdiced themselves as such..but most I talk to suggest they are real and others are fake. I guess its subjective then. Maybe the true christians are the ones that don't claim to be one. Who knows.
+++++++++
You know, I was looking at that sentence there and my answer back to it.

Actually, I think I got it right...
Consider it for a moment
You meet someone and they say,
"Hey, I am Joe, I am a REAL christian..."

I would be probably dismissive of that person overall..not sure why, just sort of annoys me..its sort of laced with ego, isn't it.

But now consider my response on someone else

"Hey, I am joe. I don't know if I am a real christian or not...I just personally believe XYZ"

To me, that is a person whom isn't caught up in the nonsense if what it means to be a christian, less ceremony, more personal connection. To me, that seems like the one with less pomp and more faith.

So, ya...I think I got it right.

So, anyhow...
Are you a real christian?

reply to post by Fromabove


And how many people has your god killed?

A lot. Many more than atheists killing for the sake of their beliefs...

reply to post by SaturnFX



Real Christians know who they are because they follow Christ and not a particular organized religion.

Christians are against homosexuality, because that is a sin. But they are not against the person who is shackled by the sin they do.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Fromabove

 

And how many people has your god killed?

A lot. Many more than atheists killing for the sake of their beliefs...

He only killed as many as was necessary, but mostly those who chose to fight him to his face. Those he often killed Himself or had some enemy of theirs do it. Lesson here, don't keep fighting God because He will win every time.

When an atheist kills he does it because that's what he feels at the time is the best thing for him to do.

Originally posted by Fromabove
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I can see how some people confuse Christians with christians. Chrisrians follow Christ and leave the judging to God and only tell what the scriptures say about the matter. The other group to which you lump all Christians into are of the religious kind, and they have a lot of judging to do on people. But Christ is not about religion.

I'm sorry you missed it, but what could you do ?

and from your post above that one

Originally posted by Fromabove

Atheism in a word, foolishness.

Typical atheists in one word, foolish

And as for casting stones, many many more people have been killed by unbelieving evolutionary dictators than by those who claimed they were Christians and were not. So, there you have it.

Sounds pretty judgemental about a segment of the population to me.
Not that you don't have the right...but by your definition, your the.what, lowercase c christian?

Your right again, I am not getting all angry about your judgement, but...if you were truely a Christian and not a christian, wouldn't you turn the other cheek verses slap back?
I see why you did that, I just don't understand why if you are wanting to be the cheek turner verse slapper.

Do you admit you don't walk the perfect path and are prone to reaction of desire over your faiths suggestions?

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by Fromabove
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I can see how some people confuse Christians with christians. Chrisrians follow Christ and leave the judging to God and only tell what the scriptures say about the matter. The other group to which you lump all Christians into are of the religious kind, and they have a lot of judging to do on people. But Christ is not about religion.

I'm sorry you missed it, but what could you do ?

and from your post above that one

Originally posted by Fromabove

Atheism in a word, foolishness.

Typical atheists in one word, foolish

And as for casting stones, many many more people have been killed by unbelieving evolutionary dictators than by those who claimed they were Christians and were not. So, there you have it.

Sounds pretty judgemental about a segment of the population to me.
Not that you don't have the right...but by your definition, your the.what, lowercase c christian?

Your right again, I am not getting all angry about your judgement, but...if you were truely a Christian and not a christian, wouldn't you turn the other cheek verses slap back?
I see why you did that, I just don't understand why if you are wanting to be the cheek turner verse slapper.

Do you admit you don't walk the perfect path and are prone to reaction of desire over your faiths suggestions?

Am I not allowed some humor ? I was teasing you for judging Christianity. As for turning the other cheek, the true meaning of this was to never back down from adversity but to resist it. Usually when slapped in the face, it was a desire to duel. To show some extra fortitude one could also offer him the other cheek to slap to show they would not be backing down. Only a coward would turn away and run. This was to show us that no matter how insulting it may seem, stand and resist it. It wasn't meant to say, let'em beat you up.

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Fromabove

 

And how many people has your god killed?

A lot. Many more than atheists killing for the sake of their beliefs...

He only killed as many as was necessary, but mostly those who chose to fight him to his face. Those he often killed Himself or had some enemy of theirs do it. Lesson here, don't keep fighting God because He will win every time.

When an atheist kills he does it because that's what he feels at the time is the best thing for him to do.

God has killed nobody (no proof of god, therefore no killing from something not proven). Men have killed in the name of god however.
Men are prone to power, and they kill to attain power. Sometimes this power is in the form of golden thrones, sometimes it is power of belief that they themselves will become a god, or be given a special kingdom in heaven of theirs...all stem from a seeking of power and station though.

Atheism does not require a single person to be killed..actually, killing a person of faith only martyrs them and makes their message stronger. Again, all was done not for any religion, nor the wishes of any deity, nor the desire to usher in a deity-less society..it is all done for a few people and their lust for power.

You can either taint all groups (religious and not) with the blood of innocents, or you can give responsibility where its due, which is a quest for power.

But, if there is an actual deity whom literally did murder us over and over...he should have the honor to come down and stand trial for genocide, infanticide, and mass murder (amongst a host of other charges). He can defend himself...frankly, if he does come down and stand trial, it will probably be dismissed anyhow due to extenuating circumstances, but ya...come down and speak clearly what you did. Don't let others justify what you did.

reply to post by longjohnbritches


Wow, that survey has really ripped your knitting, hasn't it? Don't stress yourself out, it's only some people's opinions.

Originally posted by Fromabove
Am I not allowed some humor ? I was teasing you for judging Christianity. As for turning the other cheek, the true meaning of this was to never back down from adversity but to resist it. Usually when slapped in the face, it was a desire to duel. To show some extra fortitude one could also offer him the other cheek to slap to show they would not be backing down. Only a coward would turn away and run. This was to show us that no matter how insulting it may seem, stand and resist it. It wasn't meant to say, let'em beat you up.

Actually, I think it sort of was, and your interpretation is by far the worst I have ever heard.
It is a lesson in passive resistance.
Why did Jesus let them beat, torture, and kill him? He had the power of god within him...he could have zotted them down with a plague of worms if he chose..but he was demonstrating something. Turn the other cheek literally means just that...let them attack you, show them only love. Do not resist, but rather open yourself for them to attack.

Sounds freaking insane

Then you look at Ghandi whom walked the talk, and defeated the british empire through passive aggressiveness. A bully wants you to fight back, it justifies their actions in their mind. If you punch someone and they forgive you and allow you to punch again, you cannot justify you are in a fight to yourself, and you suddenly feel totally freaking evil and the worlds biggest jerk. And within us all, we want to feel we are doing the good thing (even when we do evil stuff)...it is a brilliant strategy...because even if you personally do slap again, the guy next to you will have the moral dilemma you personally are lacking and turn on you to defend him.

Christians should put more faith in what christ said.

Look at Rome.
Christians were chased down and persecuted. They did not build an army, they sang songs in the pits while lions were unleashed..they offered themselves up...this turned Rome from pagan to monotheistic in time.
Look at the middle east...stand up, war for god...bring christianity there by sword.
and that worked just freaking great -eyes all the mosques-

Just my (simplified) perspective on the whole turn the other cheek message.

reply to post by SaturnFX


You are disingenuous, if you were truly against Propaganda you would have presented that Study as a rediculous misperception instead of spending 30+ pages trying to support its premise.

I can see right through you.

And yes I am a Christian who Follows Christ and as to whether or not I am legit? You will know those who Truly follow Christ by the Fruit that they produce. In as much as I am able I seek hope, love, and forgiveness. And No Christian is perfect, thats why we preach a message of Salvation AND SIN.

So if you must JUDGE christians, and make no mistake the purpose of this Thread was to JUDGE christians, you can look at the fruit that each individual produces and make your own determinations.

When you consider who is and is not a real christian.. you must look at what they do, not what they say. So it would be impossible for you to know me over an internet thread, I could say whatever i want could I not? Come live with me for a month and you will see what sort of Christian that I am.

Ironic isn't it, that the people who claim that being Judgemental of Other people is such a horrible thing, will in the same breath Judge an entire Religion.

Soul

Originally posted by Amadeo
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

Wow, that survey has really ripped your knitting, hasn't it? Don't stress yourself out, it's only some people's opinions.

What are you going on about here?
Got a quote or survey for me?
Are you taking on the work FX is ashamed to?
buck up Fx

Originally posted by SoulReaper
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

You are disingenuous, if you were truly against Propaganda you would have presented that Study as a rediculous misperception instead of spending 30+ pages trying to support its premise.

I can see right through you.

And yes I am a Christian who Follows Christ and as to whether or not I am legit? You will know those who Truly follow Christ by the Fruit that they produce. In as much as I am able I seek hope, love, and forgiveness. And No Christian is perfect, thats why we preach a message of Salvation AND SIN.

So if you must JUDGE christians, and make no mistake the purpose of this Thread was to JUDGE christians, you can look at the fruit that each individual produces and make your own determinations.

When you consider who is and is not a real christian.. you must look at what they do, not what they say. So it would be impossible for you to know me over an internet thread, I could say whatever i want could I not? Come live with me for a month and you will see what sort of Christian that I am.

Ironic isn't it, that the people who claim that being Judgemental of Other people is such a horrible thing, will in the same breath Judge an entire Religion.

Soul

I didn't say I am against propaganda. Everything is propaganda..from big sweeping political parties, right down to why I should buy a brand of toothpaste over another.
I also never denied the message the study sited in the books isn't a result from propaganda over truth. the thread is ultimately a curiousity as to how chrisitian church will address this, how will they move forward.

Your misunderstanding does not change it...actually, it reinforces it. But it is your choice to do nothing about it because of how the roots may or may not be rooted in propaganda to begin with...

When a bus is coming at you down the street, do you decide not to take action (get off the street) because the bus wasn't made by the proper bus manufacturers? Either way, do something or your going to be flattened.
This is the church today...standing in the street, seeing this anti-homophobia image bus coming at them. They can discuss if its manufacturing is proper or not, or you can take action to not get flattened.

As far as you being a real christian...the more you say it, the less I believe it.(say it louder, that might help)

This thread could be a teaching moment for you..you chose it instead as a means to argue and feel persecuted.
I have seen more introspection and understanding from a drain pipe.

And as far as my personal judgements are concerned...why are you concerned about my personal judgements? They are just that...my personal judgements...about as worthy of concern as a ant hill in the congo jungle. I am not going to murder someone over it, or go on a crusade..just my personal views on something, with no great ideology dictating how I should filter things outside of what I decide. If everyone held my judgements as theirs, I would probably change mine (I don't like being too common)

reply to post by SaturnFX


"I have seen more introspection and understanding from a drain pipe."

YOU SHOULD spend less time with friends like these.

"(I don't like being too common) "

And yet you are. Try some real dialog with some real Christians they won't wave a
CROSS in your FACE.
LOL ljb

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

"I have seen more introspection and understanding from a drain pipe."

YOU SHOULD spend less time with friends like these.

"(I don't like being too common) "

And yet you are. Try some real dialog with some real Christians they won't wave a
CROSS in your FACE.
LOL ljb

I once was a "real" christian.
and as I said earlier in this thread, I have plenty of christian friends and family. Surrounded by em actually, and quite like em (after all, they are my friends, and I am a family guy). I don't mind their faith at all..I quite enjoy discussing it when they want. I get annoyed at the church (the business). You are having the issue of thinking the church = christians. they are not the same...

Listen, you proved several pages back your not here for dialog, your here to insult and beat your fist against the table..hense why my responses to you have been very few after a certain amount of posts where you demonstrated your ears were closed (or eyes in this case). Anyhow, enjoy your weekend..personally, I am going fishing. I understand fish better than people on ATS...less nuanced.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
the thread is ultimately a curiousity as to how chrisitian church will address this, how will they move forward.


As far as you being a real christian...the more you say it, the less I believe it.(say it louder, that might help)

The True Church isn't interested in FORCING the world to LIKE us. We understand why you don't like us. It is the nature of our message regarding Sin and how God perceives it.

We aren't going to attempt to Control the Media, and the schools, and hollywood and engage in Counter Propaganda. We don't need to. We will continue to allow our Lives to speak for us.

We can't stop people from spreading LIES about us and neither are we interested in Limiting peoples free speech.

As for your continued attempt to discredit me. You don't read very well.

As I said before, come live with me for a month and observe what I do, not what I say.

I know you have no other alternative, I don't fit into the nice little BOX that you have built to lump all Christians into. I don't hate gays, I don't want to Force other people to Acknowledge and accept the Message of Christ.

I won't shut up just because you want me too.
I'm not impressed with your rhetoric.
I'm not intimidated by your attempts at Character assaisination.

I'm far to grounded in what I believe to be shaken by someone who is just interested in slinging mud all over anyone who disagrees with him.

You ask for good discussion on an issue and then try to discredit anyone who speaks up. It is disingenuous, you have an agenda to make Christians look BAD and that is why you started this thread. I see right through you.

Soul

I actually find it QUITE amusing that a self described Atheist thinks that he should be TEACHING other people how to be GOOD Christians.

You ask people to believe that your Motives are Good and pure as the wind driven snow. That you have Absolutely no AGENDA in posting this thread other then to HELP the Church that you HATE.

Sorry, I'm not buying what your selling.

Ironically even as you ask other people to believe your motives are completely well meaning, you continually insist on painting everyone elses motives as hate filled, judgemental, and fake.

You are a paradox of intellectual integrity.

Soul

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

"I have seen more introspection and understanding from a drain pipe."

YOU SHOULD spend less time with friends like these.

"(I don't like being too common) "

And yet you are. Try some real dialog with some real Christians they won't wave a
CROSS in your FACE.
LOL ljb

I once was a "real" christian.
and as I said earlier in this thread, I have plenty of christian friends and family. Surrounded by em actually, and quite like em (after all, they are my friends, and I am a family guy). I don't mind their faith at all..I quite enjoy discussing it when they want. I get annoyed at the church (the business). You are having the issue of thinking the church = christians. they are not the same...

Listen, you proved several pages back your not here for dialog, your here to insult and beat your fist against the table..hense why my responses to you have been very few after a certain amount of posts where you demonstrated your ears were closed (or eyes in this case). Anyhow, enjoy your weekend..personally, I am going fishing. I understand fish better than people on ATS...less nuanced.

Well now ever so humble.
So you say most if not all of your family is Anti Homosexual.
There is no way to deny this including going fishing.
I have not beat my fist at all. Asking you to back up your admitted Christian Bashing with some facts from your OP. The un Christian BOOK.
You fail to even produce a full survey from it.
You fail. Your bigotry towards Christianity is all you produce.
As a matter of fact there hasn't even been any gay content here for many many posts. FAIL

I agree that all these statistics of diseases and ailments do point to problems in the gay community (seemingly more so in the US than Europe or Australia), and that certain sections of the gay community need to adopt more responsible lifestyles.

But statistics can show a lot of things.
We always hear how the US has a high obesity rate, and the likelihood of people dying from diet-related illnesses before they reach forty. Coupled with a range of TV programs on US issues with fat, the image really arises that they are not just unhealthy, but spreading their bad dietary lifestyles to other countries through their fast-food chains.

Vegetarians have long preached that their diet has less environmental impact, less chances of spreading animal viruses to humans (like HIV or Bird Flu), and lower rates of heart diseases and cancer.

If statistics make a group of people "bad" by judging some statistical problems and behaviors, then why stop with the gay community?

Never even mind our heterosexual HIV/AIDS pandemic in southern Africa (apparently 98 percent of global infections), but African Americans account for 40 percent of HIV, despite being a minority of 14 percent of the US population.
www.cdc.gov...

I see some churches in the US now openly encourage black women to be tested for STDs.
While most of the risky behavior is heterosexual, there appears to be a group of bisexual men who do not regard themselves as "gay" and live on the "down-low" (with both female and male partners).
Are African Americans singled out through "Christian love" by having STD statistics shoved in their faces?
Would a thread on this be racist? I'd like to see one of the "caring Christians" make such a thread with "deep concern" for another minority group by quoting shocking statistics.


Especially with HIV there are certain intersections of transmission.
Documentaries point out that prison and drug shooting are two such intersections, notably encouraged by officialdom.
And yet, there is no access to condoms in US prisons, and clean needles are also countered by conservative politics.

Some atheists have long cited examples that the most religious countries have more violence, crime, addiction and rape. In the US I've heard that the more liberal "blue states" have lower rates of divorce than the the more conservative "red states". I don't know about all that, but state homophobia in African countries like Zimbabwe has certainly not prevented HIV/AIDS. I really can't think of a desirable modern country with state homophobia.

It's good to recognize a gay minority and their sexual orientation, and spread a message that encourages responsible sex and monogamous relationships, like gay marriage.
However, if one just quotes statistics to demonize a community, then that's not love but opportunism.
If one addresses gay people as in need of healing simply for being gay, instead of encouraging responsible behavior and forms of being gay, then one is encouraging stigma and driving homosexuality underground (the "down-low"), where it cannot be reached by campaigns for responsible sex.
So, instead of focusing on a gay identity or orientation, one should rather focus on certain risky acts and behaviors.

Despite what some radical homophobia says, gay activists and doctors did much to prevent HIV from infecting the blood supply.
The gay community is diverse, and despite internal debates, it does not encourage unsafe sex through any accredited organization.
So my feeling is that some Christian groups are pushing dated, regional and shocking statistics that are supposed to scare gay people out of being gay, rather than encouraging productive gay lifestyles.
Rather than pushing proven public health solutions they've pushed abstinence campaigns, thus reversing some of what had been achieved in the late 1980s. In some countries they've gone as far as burning condoms.
They've really used STDs and especially HIV to spread a neo-colonialist form of Christianity.
It's not good enough to say everyone must settle with one heterosexual partner for life, and base policies on that.
Extra-marital sex, prostitution, sex between men, sex in prisons and shooting drugs must be addressed as realities, or epidemics will occur.
Apparently the HPV virus that causes cervical cancer in women and anal cancer in men can now be partly prevented with a vaccine. So such statistics are likely to fall.

Generally I'd like to see more focus on "minorities" in US discussions, since I read yesterday that especially Latino and black "minorities" in the US are statistically younger and more likely to get pregnant than whites, and their birth-rate already outnumbers white Americans. www.telegraph.co.uk...

So, when Christians mention statistics in the gay community, could they please break them down and compare them to all current population groups based on race and gender, both in the gay category and amongst heterosexuals?
At least that would counter feelings of forced gay demonization at all costs.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Fromabove

 

And how many people has your god killed?

A lot. Many more than atheists killing for the sake of their beliefs...

Well, I think this is a matter of understanding and perspective here. The god of the atheists has indeed killled millions in the name of communism and secular humanism. Whereas the God of Christianity and Hinduism has allowed men to kill each other in free will and reap the consequences. That is the meaning of free will. We do what we do and the law of karma takes care of the results. The missing link in Christianity is the understanding of it in the masses. In Hinduism, the law of karma and reincarnation is everywhere in their philosophy, in Christianity we may have only hints of it.

Matthew 5:18
King James Bible Cambridge Ed.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This is the understanding that cosmic law will be fulfilled regardless of whatever man thinks in his own mind. What Christians do understand is that the Law will be fulfilled even through the very ones who may not believe in God. The cosmic drama will still unfold, even if humanists and atheists won't admit it. Our daily lives are all lived out in that cosmic drama being fulfilled.
Those who choose to do evil and hope to evade the consequences by saying they just do not believe in God are simply karma-dodging. Christians also know this in their inner selves, and they recommend confession of sin and repentence to get right with God.
It is free will choice.
One should not curse God when trouble befalls us. This is the story in Job. In that life Job was a good man and God tested him and allowed some dire things to happen to him. He took away Job's children and his wealth. Later on after Job passed the tests and refused to become angry with God, God gave him children and his wealth back.
This is something I always try to remember when serious trouble comes to my household, especially in these tough times. However, this does not mean we should not fight for our liberties, which TPTB are attempting to steal right from under our very noses on a daily basis.

reply to post by halfoldman

I see some churches in the US now openly encourage black women to be tested for STDs.

I am not sure just which churches are doing this, perhaps those with large black populations? Baptist, Pentacostal?

I would like to take a moment to recommend the book by Dr Len Horowitz, "Emerging Viruses", where he explains that Litton Bionetics was involved in the production of Hep B vaccines tainted with the AIDS Virus and these vaccines were then used in tests with Gay men and Black men. He says this is how the AIDS virus originally spread. He discusses in great detail his research into this, and that the AIDS virus is likely bionengineered. The Rockefellers and the US Govt are involved in developing the virus as a bioweapon and for their de-population agenda.
www.tetrahedron.org...

.Litton Bionetics was reported to be the leading supplier of African simians for the NCI and America's biomedical community.(19) They were also the U.S. military's sixth leading biological weapons contractor according to the 1969 Congressional Record.(20) The question of laboratory contamination is raised here by NCI documents showing hepatitis, herpes, and retrovirus recombinants (including acute lymphocytic leukemia virus hybridized with influenza or parainfluenza viruses to propagate airborne leukemia) were being cultured and tested before 1971 at Bionetics and collaborating laboratories in northwest Uganda and near Bethesda.(19)

Bionetics also administered the "Special Virus Cancer Program" for the NCI and National Institutes of Health (NIH) including HB collaborative studies between New York investigators representing the Merck pharmaceutical company and the International Agency for Research on Cancer operating in France and Uganda.(19)

Experimental subjects for these HB vaccine trials included homosexual males in NYC, Willowbrook State School (WSS) mentally retarded children on Staten Island, and African Blacks. All subjects were not informed that the four subtype HB vaccines being tested were partially processed in live potentially contaminated chimpanzees, shipped from Africa by Bionetics, then housed in NYC where biohazard and containment problems, including the horizontal transmission of infectious diseases, was routine.(17,18)

Further scrutinizing the development and testing of these four HB vaccine subtypes, the blood from these experimentally infected human subjects was later pooled and used to develop "perhaps 200,000 human doses" according to Merck's vaccine chief, Maurice Hilleman.(18) Again, these doses containing HB viruses serially passed from Australian humans, to WSS children, into African chimpanzees before being reinoculated into New Yorkers and central Africans by way of vaccines by 1975.(21) This was perfect timing for the initial outbreak of GRID/AIDS cases in these regions by the late 1970s.

www.rense.com...

Perhaps your insistence that churches are singling out black women in some racist fashion is based on hatred of Christianity and not in sound knowledge of the AIDS virus.