Is Same Sex Marriage A Government Or Religious Issue? How Do We Untie This Knot?

reply to post by Kali74

Is a "Church" that call behavior acceptable or good that which the Bible calls unacceptable or evil really a legitimate "Church"?

Is the right to be a heretic a "God given right" or a Government given right?

Would the excuse that you were exercising a Government given right help you on Judgement Day?

reply to post by CharlesMartel

Just wondering, what behavior would that be?

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
And any church that does this will pay the consequences in the end too. To call yourself a christian and still be homosexual is like saying Christ was a homosexual, because the word "christian" means to be "like Christ" or "little Christ".

I see

So, what -exactly- did Christ say specifically about homosexuality then?
Also, what did he say about tattoos?
Both are forbidden in the OT...I assume Christ clarified this with words that came directly from his mouth verses many years later someone decided what he probably thought on the matter.

So ya, will be waiting for the quotes directly from the mouth of Jesus on matters of homosexuality and tattoos.

..and waiting...

...and waiting...

(hint, jesus said absolutely nothing about it)

Homosexuality within the constraints of the bible is a sexual immorality, as i have said numerous times before in other endlessly circular arguments. It's partaking of "strange flesh", what the nicolaitians were doing. Lets not forget the Sodom and Gomorah incident, Sodom and Gomorah were doing worse things than sexual immorality, they were practicing the arts of usury and were robbing widows, children and the poor while pretending to be righteous.

Now when God created Adam, he made female from Adam's rib to establish the natural order for procreation, he didn't create 2 men and Yeshua is the Creator so it was he doing all this. In Revelation Yeshua says he hates the ways of the Nicolaitians. Lets learn more about the Nicolaitians shall we?

Nicolaitans

1 Cor. 6: 7-11

7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

The underlined portion is refering to people who claim to believe in Christ yet think they can still partake of the world they are supposed to leave behind and yes this came from Paul with Christ's Holy Spirit on him.

Back to the Nicolaitans, lets see what Yeshua has to say concerning them.

Revelation 2:1-6 To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,

‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

So he hates the Nicolaitans who believe they can keep the ways of the world and not turn from their sin yet profess to follow him. You gotta know Yeshua hates hypocrits, he railed at the pharisees alot for their hypocrisy.

Btw, you can wait all you want...i do have a life outside the internet you know? Mother and Father in law up for Mother's day and i wanted to spend time with them, i don't have time to sit on here just to reply to everything you post.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I respect your faith and your beliefs. However, not everyone believes as you do, and that they do makes no less valid their beliefs. It is only the man insecure in his own faith that feels the need to convince others that his belief is valid.

You would do well to diversify your reading list a bit. The Bible can hardly be viewed as an accurate piece of literature. It is a mix of factual details, metaphors, allegories, parables, and interpretations of its various translators and authors. To quote a true great American, Thomas Jefferson:
"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."

reply to post by 1littlewolf

Imagine if you may that you are an all powerful being capable of anything, let's call you 'Yeshua'. Now imagine you've just created an entire universe, full of stars, galaxies, black holes etc. Within this universe you've also created 'life', a system where matter instead of degenerating into its simplest form actually becomes more complex, and takes on the most fantastical forms with such intircate yet beautiful complexity.......

Now think. If you were such an omnipotent beautiful being capable of all this, would you really care where some dude sticks his pork sword?

Considering that he made laws against such behavior, yeah he does care. You're trying to argue oranges and bananas comparing humans to God, even though he was in human form briefly God is unchanging in his ways, from the beginning to the end. He does not in anyway grant anyone the right to continue in their wickedness by believing in him and the people who do believe that are called Nicolaitans and well...he hates them.

As long as two consenting adults fall in love and decide to be a couple, it is, in my opinion, none of any bodies business.

Anyone, heterosexual or homosexual should keep their sex life private.

There is trash and there is class.

If everybody just attended to their own dirty laundry and made sure they were doing what is right, stop trying to dictate who other people should fall in love with and start worrying about the serious stuff going on all over our planet.

Beware of once the state or government unites with any church.

Look at Iraq and Iran to see the tyranny.

Our forefathers knew that church and state should not be combined.

Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged! and Let Him Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone.

As of this moment we are on the verge of WWIII, the Middle East is a powder keg, our governments are corrupted to the core, 28,000 people (mostly children) starve to death or die from lack of fresh clean water each and every day, we have tens of millions of homeless (or more people) thoughout the world, we are trashing our planet to the point of no return, a possible alien presence as well as a possible alien (non human) governance at the top of the pyramid, our world is becoming more and more decadent month by month, child sex slavery, many people are addicts because they have to numb themselves from this cruel, harsh and unjust world.

Some people have so much money they couldn't spend it in 1,000 lifetimes and others cannot get a job that pays enough to put a roof over their head and food in their belly, 45,000,000 Americans are without Health Insurance while our Senators and Congress enjoy mega health and retirement benefits and on and on the injustice and corruption goes and the OP is worried about who is marrying who.

This type of post is a distraction.

If Joe and Michael two doors down are married, are nice and law abiding, what business is it of of mine or yours?

How many heterosexual "good" religious people are cheating on their spouses either in thought or deed?????

Same Sex Marriage should be allowed and the state should stay out of it.

I am not religious, most churches were corrupted long ago. I am spiritual and a good, kind, decent heterosexual. I was born lucky, I always liked the little boys from day one. My hormones clearly are female.

500 years ago we were hanging and burning people at the stake for convulsing / epileptic seizures, thinking they were "bewitched".

If everyone did what they were suppose to do, namely be fair, play nice, make sure your own yard is clean and live and let live this would be a nicer planet to live on.

We have a lot more serious problems than same sex marriages.

It should be none of the state's business and as far as churches, each church to it's own. If a community of people are so judgmental as to not allow same sex couples included in their worship services so be it.

Again, everyone should attend to their own dirty laundry.

And no I'm not for gay parades nor do I think any parade where people are displaying inappropriate adult behavior with children around is a good idea.

They have Mardi Gras in New Orleans and stuff in South America I would not want my grand daughter exposed to.

I do draw the line at whips, S & M and violence being promoted within our society.

Physical love between two people should be kept private.

We have compromised our oceans, our air, our soil, abandon our youth, our poor and allowed a elite few to rob the rest of us blind.

We really at this time have more serious things to worry about fixing.

Why is it that the people who cling so tenaciously to the Bible are the least educated in the nation? If what the "thumpers" say is true, the only people who are going to be saved are the hillbillies south of the Mason-Dixon line. Perhaps they grip the holy book so tightly because the real world is progressing and passing them by, leaving them only with the fables and comforts of a promised Heaven. I pity them because their world is such a small place. I hope their Heaven does exist though, because they would be real buzz-kills for the rest of us sinners down in Hell.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by rebellender

 

Should we ignore a serious issue just because politicians are jerks? NO! Let put the gay marriage down for just a second and let me ask you...are you ok with there being second class citizens in the US? You are an American therefor you do have a dog in the fight or whatever it was you said.

edit on 13-5-2012 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)

there are no second hand citizens in America. I stated my position loud and clear, I own it I am proud of it. I am sticking to it.

It is my opinion that Homosexuality denies its existence through its inability to procreate naturally through with their partners.

Thats where I stand, its very possible for both of us to move on from this conversation in each direction. Not long ago people were respected for having an opinion and for voicing it. Its a shame that no longer happens, Kali we argue on all topics but in the end you had my respect, I think sometimes I have voiced in in other words.

See for me it would be easy to hide my opinion...should I do that to suit you or others? I think not.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Where's the verse that says God destroyed Sodom because of homosexuality?

Ezekial 16:48-50 blames the daughters of Sodom, and the men had nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Where's the verse that says God destroyed Sodom because of homosexuality?

Ezekial 16:48-50 blames the daughters of Sodom, and the men had nothing to do with it.

what did Lots daughters do after that in the cave? always the womans fault...even Jacob and Judah's wife, that was her fault too...hummmmm

reading the story of why Sodom leaves nothing left to the imagination ,,,it was pretty graphic

reply to post by rebellender

For sure it's misogynist, but where is the clear verse that says God destroyed Sodom because the men had same-sex shenanigans (well with those uppity women I don't actually blame them)?

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by rebellender

 

For sure it's misogynist, but where is the clear verse that says God destroyed Sodom because the men had same-sex shenanigans (well with those uppity women I don't actually blame them)?

edit on 13-5-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

Jehovah is not in my position SOOO00000oooo you are fishing out of the back of your boat with the wrong bait

but fantastic effort

reply to post by rebellender

Well that's OK, I just see these sweeping claims about Sodom, and whenever I read Genesis 19 I just don't find the verses that clearly say what a lot of religious people claim they say.

But my apologies, because you specifically didn't actually claim that.

You might not be Jehovah, but you've got some neat fishing parables anyway.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
And any church that does this will pay the consequences in the end too. To call yourself a christian and still be homosexual is like saying Christ was a homosexual, because the word "christian" means to be "like Christ" or "little Christ".

So, what -exactly- did Christ say specifically about homosexuality then?
Also, what did he say about tattoos?
Both are forbidden in the OT...I assume Christ clarified this with words that came directly from his mouth verses many years later someone decided what he probably thought on the matter.

So ya, will be waiting for the quotes directly from the mouth of Jesus on matters of homosexuality and tattoos.


(hint, jesus said absolutely nothing about it)

I can answer that, and did in another thread.

Jesus statement on the laws of the Hebrews
Matthew 5:17

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Think not that I am come ... - Our Saviour was just entering on his work. It was important for him to state what he came to do. By his setting up to be a teacher in opposition to the scribes and Pharisees, some might charge him with an intention to destroy their law, and to abolish the customs of the nation. He therefore told them that he did not come for that end, but really to fulfill or accomplish what was in the law and the prophets.

To destroy - To abrogate; to deny their divine authority; to set people free from the obligation to obey them. "The law." The five books of Moses called the law. See the notes at Luke 24:44.

The Prophets - The books which the prophets wrote. These two divisions here seem to comprehend the Old Testament, and Jesus says that he came not to do away or destroy the authority of the Old Testament.

bible.cc...

The Torah (English pronunciation: /ˈtɔːrə/; Hebrew: תּוֹרָה‎‎, "Instruction", "Teaching") is the Jewish name for the first five books of the Jewish Bible. In Hebrew the five books are named by the first phrase in the text: Bere# ("In the beginning," Book of Genesis), Shemot ("Names," Exodus), Vayikra ("He called", Leviticus[1]), Bamidbar ("In the desert," Numbers) and Devarim ("Words," Deuteronomy). In rabbinic literature the word Torah denotes both these five books, Torah Shebichtav (תורה שבכתב, "Torah that is written"), and an Oral Torah, Torah Shebe'al Peh (תורה שבעל פה, "Torah that is spoken"). The Oral Torah consists of the traditional interpretations and amplifications handed down by word of mouth from generation to generation and now embodied in the Talmud (תַּלְמוּד) and Midrash (מדרש‎) .[2]

According to Jewish tradition, all of the laws found in the Torah, both written and oral, were given by God to Moses, some of them at Mount Sinai and most of them at the Tabernacle, and all the teachings were later compiled and written down by Moses, which resulted in the Torah we have today. According to medieval Jewish mysticism the Torah was created prior to the creation of the world, and was used as the blueprint for Creation.[3] Most Modern biblical scholars believe that the written books were a product of the Babylonian exilic period (c.600 BCE) and that it was completed by the Persian period (c.400 BCE).[4]

en.wikipedia.org...

The Biblical Sources
The basis of the prohibition against homosexual acts derives from two biblical verses in Leviticus: “Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence” (Leviticus 18:22) and “If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death—their bloodguilt is upon them” (Leviticus 20:13). The Torah considers a homosexual act between two men to be an abhorrent thing (to’evah), punishable by death—a strong prohibition.

A Talmudic Interpretation
Rabbinic literature assumes that Jews are not homosexual. For example, the Mishnah presents the following disagreement between Rabbi Judah and the Sages: “R. Judah said: A bachelor should not herd animals, nor should two bachelors share a single blanket. The Sages permit it.” The halakhah follows the Sages because the Talmud says, “Israel is not suspected of homosexuality.”

The Shulhan Arukh (a foundational work of Jewish law from the 16th century) never explicitly mentions the prohibition against homosexual acts but mentions the precaution that a male should not be alone with another male because of lewdness “in our times.” However, Rabbi Joel Sirkes ruled about one hundred years later that such precautions were unnecessary because of the rarity of such acts among Polish Jewry.

The reason for the prohibitions seems to be that such behavior undermines the Jewish family

Rabbi Michael Gold is the rabbi at Temple Beth Torah, Tamarac Jewish Center in Tamarac, Florida.

www.myjewishlearning.com...

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by SaturnFX
So, what -exactly- did Christ say specifically about homosexuality then?
I assume Christ clarified this with words that came directly from his mouth

Homosexuality within the constraints of the bible is a sexual immorality,

-etc etc etc, randomness, nothing from the words of Jesus himself, just some dudes waaay before (same dudes that said eating a ham sandwich and getting a tattoo or trimming your beard is equally horrible). and some dues waaay after christ whom were starting a business called church

Thank you for proving my point. Christians, whom follow the teachings of -CHRIST- can be gay, tattooed, bacon eating, beard trimming heathens.
Now, yes..if you ignore christ (love self, love neighbor, love god) if you are worshipping the narrators that came later (peter, paul, and I think Bono). But, I am of the opinion that if you are following and worshipping people second guessing and putting words into christs mouth, meh...your not a christian, your a...paulian, or whomever you are following whom bears false witness.


You failed to answer my simple question, you deflected and spun it, it shows that there is no merit to your discussion. Enjoy following every message except for christs message. seems to gain comfort in the neat weapon it allows you to hold.

reply to post by SaturnFX


The last part of this comes in the form of a statement by the Essene community, as it is said that Jesus himself grew up in the Essene sect. There were three major sects at this time, Essenes, Sadducees, and Pharisees.

As I said in another thread, it is likely Jesus never felt it necessary to delineate all the laws of Moses and the Prophets but likely would have held to the ideals of the Essenes.

The foundational principle of our Order's view on Homosexuality hinges on whether we are truly androgynous, or simply pseudo-androgynous because we are separated from our opposites whilst in these fallen worlds. There are of course many schools that teach we are truly and eternally male and female as we are now - in this world, and that such reflects the true nature of the Gods and Goddesses above. Our Order teaches that we are indeed androgynous, but that our present androgynous nature is a product of the fall of the Primal Pair and not an eternal condition. We teach male female balance, but in a different manner than the androgynous pattern put forth by many. This belief has certain contradictions with a belief in the eternal validity of the male male sexual bond and of our present androgynous condition. We do not wish to be offensive toward anyone's sexual preferences and believe that intimacies between adults are their own private affair. We do, however, represent a certain Path that is focused upon the male female union, and must remain true to that Path by expounding the divine principles behind those unions that generate new Life.

essenes.net...

I am guessing the Nazoreans hold as closely as possible to the original tenets of the sect.

It is tragic that today people are trying to reinterpret scripture to justify a socio-political position while at the same time condemning such scripture, as Dan Savage has done, and as people have tried to do with the story of Lot, and the ridiculous position that the city was destroyed because of some custom of hospitality. It is an absurd reinterpretation made by people desperate to legitimize a practice using bible scripture.

Really, what does religion have to do with law making? It's like consulting Dr. Seuss.

Really, what does law making have to do with sexual orientation? It's like consulting 1984.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
I can answer that, and did in another thread.

Jesus statement on the laws of the Hebrews
Matthew 5:17

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Yep, laws fulfilled, check
We can now go back to bacon and prawn (shrimp) eating, tattoo wearing, beard trimming ways. This also includes being gay.
I am not gay...frankly I find the whole notion a bit gross really, but then again, I am also not a fan of anchovi's. But, I certainly am not going to suggest a person whom does what I wont do is somehow doomed. That is ultimately whats going on here.
A person may get a tattoo and not think twice about it, then that same person will suggest some gay person is going to hell, because the old testiment forbids it (right next to the tats forbidding). Its hypocracy, its moronic, and anyone (including those whom wrote in the bible) that said one is fine and the other isn't, and uses christs -non-words to back their claim up are to be safely ignored for everything they say from that point on.

Either its all ok, and you do as christ said (love self, neighbor,god) or none of it is ok, christs sacrifice meant absolutely nothing, and we need to all grow our beards out and chop off any foreskin that may be hanging around while getting rid of our bacon and shrimp sandwiches...you can't pick and choose here based on what you like...all or nothing, pretty clear..

and thats the point when christians need to figure out if they are following christ and his specific words, or the rest of the flock that made a bunch of stuff up after he left.

After nine pages of people arguing if gay people should marry and the morality of being gay, I think that those who pull the strings have found a FABULOUS way to keep the "little" people distracted- I REST MY CASE.

BTW what right does anybody have to deny two people that love each other the right to marry? Think about that statement and your own reaction to it and then ask yourself objectively if your response to it is a conditioned response due to programming by some mechanism of social control...then hack the program and think for yourself.-PEACE.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Yes, I know all about how people use Leviticus to say that if you eat pork you must accept homosexuality as well. The argument is faulty. It is like saying if you shoplift you must also accept murder. I personally do not eat cooked pigs and I am guessing that during those days, they did not see trichinella under the microscope but just knew that pork was related to disease. For all we know, they may have forbidden shellfish because some people are allergic. Today we have banned peanut butter from school lunches because of the possible anaphylactic shock. Maybe there were no peanuts in ancient Israel.

You have completely missed the point of the post though, that just because Jesus is not observed in the bible expressly talking about homosexuality, does not mean that he did not have an opinion. He may have thought it was of a lesser importance than selling doves in the Temple for sacrifice. Or maybe his opinion was just never recorded. We will never know. One thing is clear, that he stated he did not come to change the Mosaic laws as given to the Israelites.

Loving thyself as thy neighbor is not the same thing as sanctioning something considered illegal or immoral. You can love criminals as people but you do not have to sanction their murdering innocent people mercilessly. What kind of person suggests such a thing anyway? Do not mix up loving your neighbor and sanctioning wrongdoing.