NEWS: Sex at 12 is tradition

Perhaps you shouldn't be so judgemental.

This is the way that their society works...

I can understand us not liking what's going on...

But going in and destroying something that they have had for two centuries?



Perhaps we should just chill.

Under British law the government can prosecute men for having sex with their wives when both people are underage and the woman does not press charges? Nice.

This is equivalent to the Indian government arresting U.S. tourists and charging them with murder for eating hamburgers in America. While you, I, and our governments may well feel that this is wrong the people of this island have the right to decide whether or not it is, not the british government.

It is interesting to see that several of the posters on this thread take into account a "cultural norm" and observe the difference between "ours" and "theirs" while discussing this potentially devicive topic.

I have raised the issue of democraticly derived social "norms" on 2 seperate threads, one concerning gay marriage, and one concerning legalized prostitution.
In BOTH threads i was attacked for raising the issue, basically for being a "bigot" or neocon ultra conservative.

My basis observation would be for this issue or the other 2 cited is....
a democratic culture has the right to say yes/no to any of these issues as far as adopting them (or not) legally (institutionally) into what they feel is their cultural norms/identity.

Now without debating the rights/wrongs of the issues mentioned (sex with 12yr olds, gay marriage, legal prostitution)
If any country, using democratic means, determines that ANY of these issues is NOT to become part of their cultural identity, WHY IS THAT WRONG? (example - saying no to gay marriage or accepting sex with a 12 year old.)

Isnt this how sociology/anthropology distinguishes between cultures?
isnt this part of the unique identity for each country...the differences in attitudes and laws concerning some of these issues?

Dosent each country have a right to distinguish itself in this manner?
(thru democratic means primarily..but i guess ANY governmental style could ask the same question about cultural identity.)

If we look at this situation and say, oh its their cultural difference that makes this ok, then any culture that says say...women must wear veils, then it is their choice to determine that is part of their cultural definition.

What are the thoughts of cultural definitions applied to core social issues?
(not if you think one or the other of the issue/examples is right/wrong.)

To understand this case and why New Zealand has to spend a heap of taxpayers' money to establish a Court on Pitcairn Island you may want to appreciate more of the "mutinous" history of the island's original inhabitants and descendants.

This isn't a cultural thing, it's a long story of shipwreck and isolation. Which on reflection is a cultural thing, but with few analogies if any, anywhere else.

As the step-father of an 11 year old...

I feel no sympathy for them...

Sure sex at a young age was tradition....the key word here being "was". When the average life expectancy was around 40, this made a little bit more sense...

Today, there is no excuse for it.

A child is not mentally capable of understanding adult relationships, consequences, responsibilities, etc. and the law realizes this, and was made because of this.

"The law" is by no means a universal thing.

Take, for example, George W Bush and his cronies, who consider themselves above the law.

True, so I'll ammend it to just plain common sense....

Just because my ancestors were pirates, does NOT mean I can behave as one....

Likewise, I have ancestors who were slave owners... Does this mean then that I can start accumulating slaves? After all, it's a cultural thing. My ancestors owned slaves for centuries...

See the fallacy in the argument???

[edit on 30-9-2004 by Gazrok]

I asked a question earlier that hasn't been answered yet:

Where did this article/news story come from???

I thought you were required to enter that when submitting a news story...it would be helpful to see who reported this and to look for alternative soruces...

I'm sorry, when JB1 moved it over to the news, the link may of been lost, or maybe I just didn't include it.

Anywho, it came from cnn.com, here's the exact link

Originally posted by MacKiller
I'm sorry, when JB1 moved it over to the news, the link may of been lost, or maybe I just didn't include it.

Anywho, it came from cnn.com, here's the exact link

Thanks MK...

After reading that - I just don't get it...why enforce what appears to be a foreign law on a group of people that will ruin their way of life? I realize the social injustice of the situation, but that's coming from my eyes and my way of living...regardless of whether or not it's a travesty, men who make these communities run cannot simply be jailed b/c they follow a custom...

If anything, social workers should be placed on the island and observe when and how these situations occur, teach the public against these things when they occur by offering examples of the negative emotional and phsyical harm it can cause and I'm sure that with time these things will die down...

Some may say that's a far too liberal approach and provides room for these people to continue their practices - and ya know what? That's the truth, but at it's very core, it is ethically the right way to approach this issue...their practices obviously do not bleed into other regions of the world and they appear to have a working form of society that functions differently from the norm...these are not grounds for jail, merely a point at which we realize something is happeneing that shouldn't (in our view from our part of the wolrd) and we take a positive action to repair these issues without disrupting their way of life...

This would be comparable to arresting the entire male population of Yanomamo indians on drug charges b/c some South American judge saw the footage of them snorting their ebene

[edit on 9/30/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

If they end up throwing all these guys in jail I'd like to know how people will be able to live on that island. If we see Pitcairn island become a remote government test facility we will suddenly realize the validity of these charges.

So now we have the story from those who are against the prosecution. I'd like to hear from those who are testifying FOR the prosecution. One who withdrew her charges said they offered good money for names. Sounds like law enforcement manipulation.

www.ageofconsent.com...

Some countries consent as young as 12 and some not until age 20. We'd argue here that 20 is too old due to our own laws. I think there's a difference between child sexual abuse and taking a young girl as a wife. Rape is wrong no matter the age of the victim. But in a community/society where the population is so severely limited and things are broken down to the very basics, it serves a different purpose. It's not a fetish, it's a continuation of their community through marriage and reproduction.

Now, if the sex was NOT consensual and there were girls who were raped, then there should definitely be charges filed. But not because the police paid "good money" for names of offenders. If one can charge then retract upon further thought, then apparently she doesn't really feel she was raped or abused. The whole thing sounds fishy and I can't help but wonder if the Brits have some other use planned for this little island that would be better served by causing the failure of the existing population. They know that the charge of child sexual abuse will get a knee-jerk reaction of support from most of the world and so might be using it as an efficient and virtually fail-proof way of cleaning out the people in a way that will make it impossible for them to try and go back. It seems they've lived there for their entire lives for generations, perhaps, and only just now they're being criminalized for this? Fishy.

These guys are a sick, bunch of child molesters who should be punished:

SYDNEY, Australia (Reuters) -- Pitcairn Island women do not live an idyllic South Pacific life, but one dominated by fear and sexual abuse which saw them raped as young girls by the island's men, descendents of 18th century Bounty mutineers, a court has heard.

"The girls are treated as though they are a sex thing," a former Pitcairn woman, who says she was raped four times as a young girl, told a court hearing the sex trial of seven island men, Australian media reported Friday.

and

Steve Christian is charged with raping the unidentified woman four times, once when she was 11 years of age, but has pleaded not guilty to rape, saying the sex was consensual.

These are not men taking young brides out of some necessity to continue the lineage of the island. This is a bunch of men justifying the rape of children.

CNN

What's wrong with having sex under 18?
But having sex under 12? Were their sexual organs ready by then?

That's what I wanted to see... the prosecution's side.

Putting aside any psychological ingredients of this situation, of which I think there are about a billion for both the men and women on this godforsaken rock, it would seem that these things began when the men were also under-age. So are they being tried as adults for a crime committed when they were under-age as well as once they were adults?

I'm still highly suspicious of law enforcement manipulation in the form of payouts. Seems the whole situation is tainted. I hope they can resolve it to everyone's satisfaction. The ones who want it dropped really seem to want to stay. Maybe the women should learn how to work the boats and take it over.

Hasn't any one here seen the whicker man? Reminds me of that movie, except hopefully they don't burn anyone! It's like robbing them of their childhood though really.

Haven't seen it, but that's right. Robbing them of their childhood. And if the males began their career in rape at a young age, then it seems this little enclave should have been broken up long ago if these allegations are true. Seems the males have been robbed of their childhood too. These are about 50 people who have serious issues. I wonder how they do once they leave and go into a "normal" society. I think I'm going to check for any kind of studies done. It would seem in all this time that someone would have done a study on their limited society compared to the mainstream. Sounds like a tragic mess.