9/11 terrorists on trial Are They Responsible or Is America

This is a thread based off of This thread

If most of ATS is for the American Government being behind the attack, why want to persecute these individuals?
Are they guilty of being brainwashed and/or set up? Or are they responsible? without influence from government agencies that is.

I think as a group we all need to come of some sort of agreement, overall, as to what is our view.

Are they more responsible?

Or are our own government agencies and certain individuals responsible.

I asked this exact question and all I got was a response about on KSM was waterboarded 1000 times and he doesn't know what to believe anymore lol.

I understand 9/11 being a false flag for the war on terror and to reap in Oil over seas in countries where these terrorists are being safe-havened but......

What's so hard to believe that people gathered and planned for a decade to attack America?

They had many reasons to do so.

reply to post by CALGARIAN


Indeed they had, and we still as a nation provoke them, numerous reasons to attack us.

I personally believe it was an agreement between the two.

You can attack us while we will put our guard down, and we get oil?
I'm not 100% sure on my own belief, odd right? But I find it hard one side did it without the other side helping in some way or another.

He was in fact water-boarded 183 times. Do any of you truthers want to help with his defense? CAll his attorneys and tell them what you know!

Here is a list of his confessions:

The February 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City
The September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the United States Capitol (both in Washington, D.C.) using four hijacked commercial airliners.
A failed "shoe bomber" operation
The October 2002 attack in Kuwait
The Paddy's Pub nightclub bombing in Bali, Indonesia
A plan for a "second wave" of attacks on major U.S. landmarks after the 9/11 attacks, including the Library Tower in Los Angeles, the Willis Tower (formerly Sears Tower) in Chicago, the Plaza Bank Building in Seattle and the Empire State Building in New York City
Plots to attack oil tankers and U.S. naval ships in the Straits of Hormuz, the Straits of Gibraltar and in Singapore
A plan to blow up the Panama Canal
Plans to assassinate Jimmy Carter
A plot to blow up suspension bridges in New York City
A plan to destroy the Sears Tower in Chicago with burning fuel trucks
Plans to "destroy" London Heathrow Airport, Canary Wharf and Big Ben in London
A planned attack on "many" nightclubs in Thailand
A plot targeting the New York Stock Exchange and other U.S. financial targets
A plan to destroy buildings in Eilat, Israel
Plans to destroy U.S. embassies in Indonesia, Australia and Japan in 2002.
Plots to destroy Israeli embassies in India, Azerbaijan, the Philippines and Australia
Surveying and financing an attack on an Israeli El-Al flight from Bangkok
Sending several "mujahideen" into Israel to survey "strategic targets" with the intention of attacking them
The November 2002 suicide bombing of a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya
The failed attempt to shoot down an Israeli passenger jet leaving Mombasa airport in Kenya
Plans to attack U.S. targets in South Korea
Providing financial support for a plan to attack U.S., British and Jewish targets in Turkey
Surveillance of U.S. nuclear power plants in order to attack them
A plot to attack NATO's headquarters in Europe
Planning and surveillance in a 1995 plan (the "Bojinka Operation") to bomb 12 American passenger jets
The planned assassination attempt against then-U.S. President Bill Clinton during a mid-1990s trip to the Philippines
"Shared responsibility" for a plot to kill Pope John Paul II
Plans to assassinate Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf
An attempt to attack a U.S. oil company in Sumatra, Indonesia, "owned by the Jewish former [U.S.] Secretary of State Henry Kissinger"
The beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl

reply to post by AudioGhost
I use Occam's Razor on this.

19 nut-jobs got on planes and crashed into the WTC. They screwed up the first time, they didn't the second.

I rarely comment on this only because this topic is more divisive than the abortion topics.

reply to post by Six Sigma


If I was water boarded 183 times I'd admit to anything and everything too just to stop you from water boarding me.

I'm sure he is telling the truth about some, but once they got the ball rolling they were like o.k. tell us about (insert terrorist crime here) or we water board you again, and again....

for example, could you elaborate on, "shared responsibility" ?

Originally posted by AudioGhost
reply to post by Six Sigma

 

If I was water boarded 183 times I'd admit to anything and everything too just to stop you from water boarding me.

I'm sure he is telling the truth about some, but once they got the ball rolling they were like o.k. tell us about (insert terrorist crime here) or we water board you again, and again....

for example, could you elaborate on, "shared responsibility" ?

I don't necessarily disagree with your response. Regarding Daniel Pearl; the veins on KSM's hands match the ones in the video holding his head.

Hasn't the US government already water-boarded one of its victims over 140 times on different occasions? Abu Hamsa? And wasn't he reduced to being a gibbering delusional psychotic as a result? Or perhaps that was the result of the prolonged sleep deprivation to which he was also subjected during his incarceration, I really don't know. But I do know that you cannot get rational intelligence out of a mind that has been broken and disintegrated so that it can no longer distinguish between its self-generated fantasies and reality. I suspect that if you tortured someone for prolonged periods they'd probably 'confess' to anything, or they'd be so out of their heads and their minds so malleable they'd probably be able to be re-programmed with different thoughts and beliefs. Then again, watching people like Derren Brown change people's belief-systems on the spot, torture may even not be necessary. I must say, I do think that these poor individuals are merely scape-goats.

reply to post by Six Sigma


and I as well don't disagree with all of what he has confessed to.

second

reply to post by Nathan-D


I completely agree. Doing such a thing THAT many times and keeping someone sleep deprived is not a way to get information, but only to torture someone into insanity.

However, what peaceful ways would there be to interrogating a terrorist? I'm not an expert on the subject and do not know of the peaceful ways to do so. Especially considering every movie has violent interrogation techniques.

What could they offer someone who hates them?

reply to post by AudioGhost


Screwing with sleep schedules and a little waterboarding, actually is a very good way to get information out of someone. Been there, done that.

9/11 Terrorist = Larry Silverstein

if he's not on trial they got the wrong guy(s)

then again they killed Osama already so need some other mideast folk in his place!

Why want to persecute?

If this is a false flag operation, then there are patsies. The patsies will get accused and convicted in court with somewhat limited legal process, like we see.
There are certainly terrorists with the will to do harm. The verdict in an impartial court would proof that the accused did also have the ability to accomplish the crime.

Originally posted by AudioGhost
reply to post by Six Sigma

 

If I was water boarded 183 times I'd admit to anything and everything too just to stop you from water boarding me.

I'm sure he is telling the truth about some, but once they got the ball rolling they were like o.k. tell us about (insert terrorist crime here) or we water board you again, and again....

for example, could you elaborate on, "shared responsibility" ?

edit on 8-5-2012 by AudioGhost because: (no reason given)

I agree with you on this. If you have to waterboard someone 183 times, maybe your technique is not really all that efficient. These are Al-qaeda figures, not CIA agents, I personally don't believe they'd have the training to withstand that kind of torture. I don't think I'd be wrong if I said a person would take blame for anything after being subjected to torture more than a hundred times. If police can manage to get a false confession from innocent people then it's easy for me to believe they can get false confessions through continuous torture.

And can I just throw this out there, why is the trial only being shown to a select number of people? Why is it being shown to them on a TV? I don't understand how the main conspirators of the worst attack on American soil are going through the most bull# trial ever. Any evidence of the bin Laden raid has pretty much been kept from the public, the trial of these conspirators is completely shrouded. All we get from the media is "the terrorists are making paper airplanes and throwing them around the court"...really? lol Are they really folding up paper planes and throwing them around the court room? Are these hardcore murderers pulling a 3 stooges act? Or is it just some materialized thing that make these terrorists look more ruthless? Does anyone feel any justice has really been done in terms of 9/11? When bin Laden was "killed" people were jumping for joy, did they stop to realize that...

bin Laden is responsible for killing 3,000 Americans...What does America do to get justice for this? Shoot him while he's unarmed and take a DNA sample....really? This is the vengeance we got for the death of 3,000 people? I'm pretty sure the whole nation was affected by 9/11, and for even more vengeance the trial of the main conspirators behind these 3,000 deaths is being held over a TV to a limited number of people (mainly the families of 9/11 victims). Why are the most significant acts of justice for 9/11 so contained and so shrouded? Does the government truly think Americans can't handle pictures of a dead bin Laden? We witnessed people leaping out of the WTC on 9/11 but now we apparently can't handle the sight of a dead bin Laden?

reply to post by homervb

I agree with you on this. If you have to waterboard someone 183 times, maybe your technique is not really all that efficient. These are Al-qaeda figures, not CIA agents, I personally don't believe they'd have the training to withstand that kind of torture.

A lot of very smart people are doing dark and dirty things to allow you the luxury to sit in your jammies and type anti government rants into ATS.

reply to post by samkent


you mean the government that is doing its best to take away that freedom by commiting fales flags, and then using that as justification to grope children in airports?

priceless
whats in your underwear?



eta
just for you Sam

That amount of waterboarding is vile. And I would think ineffective. It seems to me a dysfunctional policy by a dysfunctional society.

That said, I don't think that anyone who looks at the material surrounding the KSM case can draw any conclusion other than that he's a vicious terrorist who hates the USA and has been involved for years inactivities designed to kill civilians. If you think there's a power in the land that could make all that up in order to frame him then I'd think you were naive.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by AudioGhost

 

I use Occam's Razor on this.

19 nut-jobs got on planes and crashed into the WTC. They screwed up the first time, they didn't the second.

I rarely comment on this only because this topic is more divisive than the abortion topics.

People think that Occam's Razor refers to whatever is easier for them to believe.

Occam's Razor simply says that whatever explanation ACCOUNTS FOR ALL OF THE FACTS and is most simple is the MOST PROBABLE explanation.

How the towers collapsed straight down in less than 25 seconds has never been explained.

Of course if airliners could not possibly have accomplished that then our physicists and engineering schools have a problem. It is as though they need to keep most people from understanding grade school physics forever.

psik

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
That amount of waterboarding is vile. And I would think ineffective. It seems to me a dysfunctional policy by a dysfunctional society.

That said, I don't think that anyone who looks at the material surrounding the KSM case can draw any conclusion other than that he's a vicious terrorist who hates the USA and has been involved for years inactivities designed to kill civilians. If you think there's a power in the land that could make all that up in order to frame him then I'd think you were naive.

If they had to waterboard him for a confession then surely there was a lack of evidence connecting him to the attacks to begin with. It sounds like they needed a confession to finally charge him with anything. I'm not saying he had no connection to any of these, but if you're torturing someone 183 times, then obviously you're not going to stop until you hear what you want to hear. But then again, we'll never have concrete proof of what exactly happened since the CIA destroyed the tapes containing what went down during those 183 occurrences of torture.

Am I the only one that thinks this trial is seriously lacking as far it being about charging individuals with the most disastrous/heinous crime in US history? OJ kills a woman and his # blows up every media outlet in America. Five men are on trial for playing a part in the death of 3,000 Americans on our own soil and all we get is minor details and victim's families watching on a television? I'm not saying I know the truth or what I'm saying is indeed the truth, I'm just really surprised not more people are questioning it.

Originally posted by homervb



If they had to waterboard him for a confession then surely there was a lack of evidence connecting him to the attacks to begin with. It sounds like they needed a confession to finally charge him with anything.

No offence, but it doesn't sound like you've looked into this in any great depth. There is mountains of evidence connecting KSM to terrorism and specifically to 9/11. His confession is a tiny part of it.

Am I the only one that thinks this trial is seriously lacking as far it being about charging individuals with the most disastrous/heinous crime in US history? OJ kills a woman and his # blows up every media outlet in America. Five men are on trial for playing a part in the death of 3,000 Americans on our own soil and all we get is minor details and victim's families watching on a television? I'm not saying I know the truth or what I'm saying is indeed the truth, I'm just really surprised not more people are questioning it.

edit on 9-5-2012 by homervb because: (no reason given)

Agree completely.