Fukushima fuel pool is urgent national security issue for America, 'top threat facing humanity'

reply to post by bowtomonkey

The main reason why thorium isn't used is because it doesn't appear in deposits that can be mined. Uranium can be mined. Thorium is found in areas where rare earth is found (I believe). To get any quantity of thorium 1000's of tons of earth must be refined. I don't know exactly how much. I understood that uranium leads to enriched plutonium and is desirable for creating nuclear weapons but the fact is, you can't really get at a usable amount of thorium. Sad but true.

There you go. Profit motive again. If human need was more important than profit to the state there would be regulations in place to ensure thorium as a reactor fuel.

But hold up there a moment. You are not quite right about the accessibility of thorium compared with that of uranium. There is actually three times the available quantity of thorium compared to uranium. The reason uranium has been used from the get go is because the US was primarily interested in it for its own nuclear weapons program, and it was the US that established the game rules (if you like). Another linked reason was the established dominance in the energy industry of oil and coal. Mining of thorium as a source of energy has always lost out because internationally big biz interests have lobbied to keep it that way.

It isn't that thorium is difficult to mine and costly to extract that is compared to uranium. It is more a case of supply and demand. There has not been the demand. If the focus shifted to thorium mining, because the nuclear industry made a decision to use thorium instead of uranium demand would be such profit potential would outweigh the cost of mining and processing it.

Consider how much the US has invested in controlling access to the world's oil supply, without even mention of the dominance of the nuclear lobby in America. Also in these times we have seen the US give up on diplomacy as a tool of foriegn policy and focus on their military supremacy. I tell you there will not be thorium used in reactors as a general preference until Capitalism is allowed to die in a quiet corner of the earth (only unfortunately it will not go quietly).

If you look at mining thorium in the US then currently yes, it is not a worthwhile proposition. That is related to the closure of rare earth mining in the America for the more profitable proposition (at the time) to depend on mines in China. But this situation can change and in fact already has. BTW Australia has huge deposits of thorium, greater than there is to be found in either the USA or Canada according to The Australian back in 2010.
www.theaustralian.com.au...

Info on thorium and mining

reply to post by Maxmars


S&F Just wanted to add my support to
your thread.

Like a lot of us here, I've been reading non stop about this and have had plenty of "I'm freaked out" moments. I then came across a post by a guy claiming to be in the industry who was offering a more "level headed" view about the state of reactor 4 and it's likelihood of withstanding another quake and wonder what you make of it ?

First off we need to talk about the actual structural design of these buildings.

The "floors" in the GE Mark I and Mark II containment are primarily supported by the containment vessel, not the outer wall. The containment has minimal structural damage compared to the outer part of the reactor building which consists of blowout panels and a frame only designed to carry a small amount of building load under normal conditions.

The site has already had structural support added to the #4 spent fuel pool and additional supports are going to be added. There definitely is a degradation of total structural integrity, however with supports installed the only way the spent fuel pool would have a catastrophic failure was if the entire reactor building had a catastrophic failure, which is unlikely given that the containment structure (which holds the majority of the structural load) is intact and was not put under the same tensile stresses that units 1-3 containments were. (The tensile stress was caused by units 1 through 3 reaching up to double their design pressure). This gives a level of assurance that the containment is structurally intact, as tensile stress is primarily what causes cracking in concrete.

Back to the point, you would need an earthquake capable of damaging the entire containment structure JUST to have a potential failure of the pool integrity, which is unlikely. Assuming this did happen, and the pools fell, the site would be evacuated. The only recourse then is to somehow get shielding over the fuel (>6ft of water or equivalent), as even a single unexposed spent nuclear fuel bundle can kill someone in minutes, and the radiation dose rates shining off the sky will be on the order of 10 mSv/hr at the site boundary up to >1000 Sv/Hr near the fuel. Covering the fuel with concrete may be a temporary stopgap, but it would have to be done from the air and would be incredibly dangerous. People say the fukushima 50 risked their lives, but what they did was a slight increase in risk compared to what you would have to do to handle this situation.

Assuming an abandonment of the site you would have the eventual loss and breakdown of cooling at all 6 units, boildown, meltdown, and uncontrolled release of radioactivity. It would not have a significant global impact, however a much larger radius of Japan would become contaminated to various degrees. It is a not a good outcome, however it is a worst case outcome and likely not a realistic one.

He is on the following thread at reddit, 2nd post dowb at this link

He also chimes in on some other threads covering Q's and Answers to do with "Reactor 4 Fuel Rods & Worldwide Mass Extinction?" that you can check out here

Tepco Wrote:

We affirm that the Reactor Building
and Spent Fuel Pool of Unit 4
will not collapse in the event of an earthquake

The upper part of the Reactor Building of Unit 4 was damaged due to a hydrogen explosion. We confirmed the items below and affirm that the building, including its spent fuel pool will not collapse should another earthquake occur.

1) We measured the distance between the water surface of the spent fuel pool and the floor surface of the building, and confirmed that the building has not tilted.

2) Our analyses show that the building, including the spent fuel pool, will not collapse even if an earthquake equivalent (seismic intensity 6) to the Tohoku-Chihou-Taiheiyou-Oki Earthquake occurs in the area.

3) In addition, we have improved the seismic safety margin by 20% by reinforcing the bottom of the spent fuel pool.

4) We will regularly check the reactor building and the spent fuel pool four times per year to confirm their soundness.

* Please refer to the attachment for the details of 1) to 4). (Attachment): We affirm that the reactor building and the spent fuel pool of Unit 4 will not collapse in the event of an earthquake. (PDF 162KB)

www.tepco.co.jp...

I personally think that this Problem is a little bit "Overcooked"
but i understand the big Fear!

"In my Opinion" the Building is safe and Tepco is right

I feel like people aren't taking this issue seriously enough.. Who exactly is over there working to solve the problem? TEPCO or whoever?

reply to post by Maxmars
Just a thought but no one was able to stop the other reactors from melting down any more then they could help with or stop Chernobyl and just maybe there is no one who knows what to do with number 4.

It could be just that simple, and devastating. I know, its hard to comprehend that humans building something and have no clue on what to do with it if it failed..............................I guess we will find out.

Originally posted by Gwampo
I feel like people aren't taking this issue seriously enough.. Who exactly is over there working to solve the problem? TEPCO or whoever?

The Plan is from Tepco, some of the Workers too but they use a lot of Subcontractors (called the Nuclear Gypsies)
The Planning is done by Tepco with the help of International Consultants from the US, France, Germany and afir the UK.

Great thread Maxmars, and I would like to give a special shout out to the guys and gals holding it down over at the mega thread Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake! I remember hearing about the fuel pools at the very onset of this disaster. This is a ticking time bomb. There is heck of a lot radioactive material just waiting to ravage the world after another aftershock or some other act of nature. I believe it is just as serious as everyone is billing it too be.

How does anyone move 1000's of highly radioactive fuel rods at a site under extreme levels of radioactivity? This is like a cruel insult to injury. We need to keep in mind that containment of the damage reactors continues, and radiation continues to be emitted in high quantities since March 11th, 2011. The international community should have responded to this at the very get go. For some odd reason it seems people would rather sit on their hands and watch Japan bring this nightmare under control? I have to say this Fukushima crisis is the new frontier. It is a realm no man has ever gone before. Sort of like deep space, a planet, or the ocean floor.

To my knowledge, there is no protocol or contingency measures for something like this. The experts are clutching for straws, and navigating in the dark to solve this matter. This is worse than Chernobyl, because we are talking multiple reactor events to go along with the problems surrounding the fuel pools. Just another accident waiting to happen. They have no idea what to do. The moral of this story is to not let the situation devolve into Fukushima in the first place. Good luck to all those who are trying to bring this catastrophe under control, because they are going to need it.

I'm sorry but if this is really such a huge issue and could potentially be an extinction level event for many people, why in the hell are we sitting behind computers debating it??!

Why not be proactive?

Why not go and tell people, spread awareness?

If I felt as compelled to speak of impending doom as most of you have, I sure as hell wouldnt be sitting clacking away on a keyboard.

I have to thank everyone for helping our review of the situation and it's most salient areas of concern.

Many may have noted the array of perspectives which are offered; and the spectrum seems as wide and diverse as our membership itself.

There are those who caution that this may be yet another fear-peddling ploy; there are those who conversely feel this is not sufficiently exposed to the opposite effect. There are some who recognize elements of misinformation, and others who are sensitive to the underpinnings of the event and it's potential unraveling into an untenable nightmare.

It is exceedingly difficult to 'take a side' here because most have presented plausible presumptions upon which to base their opinions. But If I may take the liberty I would like to stoke the fires of this discussion a bit further... (before this thread gets moved to the Japan disaster forum) just to allow the opportunity for others to see what they may have been missing by not visiting or monitoring that forum.

It appears that getting a grasp of this situation is not as easy as picking what you choose to believe; there are too many aggregate factors to exclude troubling possibilities which render our preferred stance as 'debatable.' I apologize if this should cause discomfort but:

Assuming all is well

Let us not forget that just like the majority of the Nuclear Industry is maintaining today; TEPCO saw (or admitted to) no danger in their operation at Fukushima. They designed it, they built it, and they operated it all the while assuring the local community how "safe" it was. All Nuclear industry operations do. In fact, all those who broach the vulnerabilities of Industrial Nuclear Power generation are generally seen as leaning towards the 'fringe' - and even today, after 3-Mile Island, Chernyobl, and Daichi; that meme is still nurtured by the global media.

The industry will not grant under any circumstances that they are neither equipped nor prepared for the kinds of emergencies that are peculiar to the 'service' they provide to society.

Any effort to compel safety precautions are met with threats of price increases. Any debate about liability is met with government-fueled political obfuscation.

The there is the further wrinkle of the government's direct contravention of media coverage, making it locally "illegal" to report anything that contradicts TEPCO statements without their direct involvement. As well as the Energy Cartel's editorial policy filtering down to the networks they own to only "whisper" Fukushima... if not remain completely silent.

I say all of this to mean that a better case needs to be presented than "TEPCO's handling it."

Science is poorly understood

Often we seem to have been treated to a 'climate-change' style dialogue of the situation; presenting heavily biased, long-time anti-nuclear activists' clarion call regarding their favorite hated technology development. Rife with hyperbole and overblown world-class meltdown scenarios (there's a pun in there somewhere), and filled with the romantic anti-establishment notion that this source of energy is evil... as opposed to the evil of the theater they and their counterparts produce.

Most of the sell is made by using names of people who are academics ... who's knowledge is neither unique nor secret... hence it's just as valid coming from a text book than from a person wearing a "Don't Nuke the Whales" t-shirt. We are casually convinced that we are too dumb to understand the rocket surgery of atom storage boxes.

(The "I'm running out of space, so I have to sum it up already" section)

• We can't predict earthquakes, but there will surely be more;
  
• The storage facility is damaged, and it's subsequent repair is fails to meet the original specifications
  
• based on mass and material, any disaster will result in an unmanageable scenario
  
• millions of lives are at stake
  
• we are purposefully deprived of factual unfiltered data, and
  
• many officials are exclaiming the serious nature of our failure to act proactively.
  

I can't attribute human emotional motives to this event; it seems unlikely that any would 'set-up' a nuclear disaster without being identified as an actual, true-to-life, threat to everyone - terrorist. But even had it been a "plan" ... it does not serve any purpose other than to 'watch the world burn.' Down that road, by definition, lies a madness we cannot contend with socially.

Anyway... thanks everyone, for joining in the discussion.

These are TEPCO's own words:

2) Our analyses show that the building, including the spent fuel pool, will not collapse even if an earthquake equivalent (seismic intensity 6) to the Tohoku-Chihou-Taiheiyou-Oki Earthquake occurs in the area.

So what happens if a 7, 8 or 9 magnitude earthquake happens? The March 11, 2011 earthquake was a magnitude 9.0. Our fates now rest with whether or not a big enough earthquake happens!

Gaia has us right were she wants us. How did we get ourselves in this position? Oh yeah, greed and hubris. These monster machines should be abolished before they abolish us.

We all know this will not be sorted out until it is too late.

Just think of the harm to our loving corporations if this was made a big deal out off.

NO export mean higher market prices.

They will sweep this under the table until the the very last moment then blame the japan government

PERHAPS A SMALL OBSERVAATION MAY BE IN ORDER HERE.....

#S 1,2,3, WERE EXACTLY THE SAME CONFIGURATION...WHTF DO YOU THINK HAPPENED TO THEIR POOLS?????!
HEADS UP PEOPLE..........
THE DEED IS ALREADY DONE VERY LIKELY........JUST GONNA SPEED THINGS UP IF THIS ONE GOES TOO.....WAKE UP!

Originally posted by Maxmars

• We can't predict earthquakes, but there will surely be more;
  

Really? According to some people TPTB can, and so can
seismologist. Care to clarify?

based on mass and material, any disaster will result in an unmanageable scenario

I doubt it. This isn't a tsunami or a hurricane or a magnitude twenty earthquake, so
I don't think it would be catastrophic.

millions of lives are at stake

Not even half a million died from Chernobyl...I'm guessing they would be smart enough to evacuate the area seeing as how they have so much information about it. Get out the way. You have all the time in the world. Or HAD.

we are purposefully deprived of factual unfiltered data, and

This I somewhat agree with. But what more can they report/sensationalize? They given us all
they can in my opinion. Its either less crazy than they say it is, or its not even something to worry about.

many officials are exclaiming the serious nature of our failure to act proactively.

Or their just scared and want someone to help them. Maybe this is why their saying "THIS WILL KILL THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE AHHHHH". They want assistance.

Originally posted by Unity_99
PLUS USE THE REVERSE SINE TECHNOLOGY AND FREQUENCY ON THE RADIATION TO NEUTRALIZE IT.

You can't "use frequency on the radiation" and somehow neutralize it. It's complete nonsense and it's sad that a good thread is contaminated by it, in a very toxic way.

They have the money to fix this, they just don't want to admit they've let a bad problem get worse. They would have to admit to faulty design, then admit other plants are similar, then spend the money to fix them. All for the mighty dollar. These are the people dictating our future. Or lack of, in this case.

I've just finished watching a half hr video here Can't embed it sorry as it was on a website.Scroll down a bit when you land on the page and you will find it.

Anyone who thinks we should believe everything TEPCO says needs a brain transplant. I myself had little idea of some of the many lies they have been caught up in , the falsification of safety reports going back years ago, pressure and threats put on people who "knew too much" and so forth. Even the premier minister was kept in the dark on so many things. The vid is worth watching as a good introduction to what we are dealing with here on the corporate-level. Alot of it was just SHOCKING.



Edit to add that someone on here advised the following : "Make sure to hit interactive transcript on Youtube.I didn't see subtitles on my screen". Personally I didn't have a problem, it loaded with subtitles when I hit the play button.

It may already be too late.

Hasn't anyone linked the hundreds of dead dolphins wahed up on the shores of Peru with radioactive contamination from Fukushima? Peruvian authorities say they don't know what might be causing the dolphins and pelicans deaths, but have recommmended that citizens stay away from the ocean waters until they do. Very suspicious if you ask me.

Source: www.nytimes.com...

reply to post by Danbones


Very good Danbones. Eating homemade soup made with a beef soupbone containing some cartilage can shrink tumors. Then hit it with a little chaga tea and your all set. Good preventative medicine too.

reply to post by buddhasystem

I'm not sure unity's idea can't be adjusted to work. Introducing something for it to bond to then hitting it with an appropriate frequency seems plausible. Possibly causing it to decay fast to particles that would quickly decay could possibly lessen the danger also. I gotta study the principles someday if I can find some research material. I study a lot of weird unnecessary things and try to find ways to apply the knowledge.