A Christian re-examining Christianity

Myself being a Christian Mystic, I did a Bible study with a fellow a few years back, and he was fairly new to the Bible. He wanted to start in the OT and build up to Christ's arrival on the scene. Well we eventually get to the Jew's slaughter of animals to pay for sin, and that's when he just couldn't handle anymore. His argument being, by what right do people have to slaughter innocent animals to cover their sins? Why would God, who put us in a place where sin is inevitable, only be satisfied by the slaughter of innocent animals for atonement?

I myself, when I initially came to Christianity, was through the NT. I could never deny the impact Christ left on the world, and as a former Atheist, approached it all as a spiritual scientist. Trying for myself whether or not what Jesus preached really does work in my life. Without expecting it, I ended up with years and years full of mystical experiences, which quantified for me, that at least the NT and Jesus' teachings were verifiable in my own life.

But this guy's reaction to the OT slaying of innocent animals with disgust, made me rethink the OT and question all of it.

If we look around the world, in places like Asia or the Natives, we don't have the killing/slaughter of animals to cover for sin.

On top of that, we are born into a world in which we have no choice to be born, where sin is inevitable, and if we don't make the right choice as far as religion goes then you are doomed to hell for all of eternity! Those odds suck. Its better to not have been born and to no longer have kids, than to chance it here. It means all the non-christians are forever doomed.

If I was God and I knew that creating people would result in losing most of them to hell where they will suffer forever and ever, then it would not be worth it to create all this for the sake of those that would have to suffer in hell.

Also let's look around us. The murders, wars, rapes, beatings, hunger, molestation, all of which makes me cringe and sick to my stomach when I think about it. I refuse to just live my life and ignore all of that. We are in a realm of hell here on earth and all we do is try and put blinders on to the BS around us.

So I see this as not worth it. The atrocities on earth & the risk of forever in hell is not worth the risk for all of this to be here. And yet all of this is here and the atrocities are obvious. This is something I myself have to reconcile because alot of things don't make sense in the big picture.

I have read a theory that the OT God was a demiurge, which would make sense because of the jealousy, the regret for the flood, the blood thirst to cover sins, the orders to kill all the armies, the children, and to take the women for themselves. None of that makes sense when God is beyond & above regret, jealousy, and the way humans think. God is Love & transcendent & knows before hand.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still all about Jesus and see him as the Neo of this Matrix world we live in who basically gives us a formula for leaving this damned world. But overall the OT, sin, human attributes given to the OT God don't really make alot of sense and the answers I've gotten about this from Theologians and Books and such, are your run of the mill "best answers they can think of" type.

What say you about this folks?

I think if I had followers two to three thousand years ago, I would have made up stories that made them listen to me too.....

Personally, as a Christian, I try to take as little stock in the OT as possible. It was written far too long ago, translated too many times to really emphasize what is right and wrong as far as that book. I prefer the NT, because its supposedly 2000 years old. Which is still a stretch to imagine everything in the NT was flawlessly represented in modern bibles.

My way of looking at it is this: if you're going to follow God and the teachings of Christ, it requires you to look at the world through the viewpoint predominant in the teachings of Christ, which was harmony, peace, and humility. Otherwise, you could just end up a hate-fueled lunatic, which is what separates us from those who cause the human race so much suffering.

Yes, we were born with the ability to sin, however Christ (per the NT) opened a sort of door as a relief from sin - we accept him and live our lives as he would want us to, and we have the path to the Afterlife. This doesn't necessarily mean you need to be a 1000% firm Christian, more of the fact of living your life as a good person and don't cause others suffering. Especially if you didn't know about Christianity (places in the world that are not aware).

If you absolutely reject God and Christ, but still are a good person overall, I believe there is a chance to redeem yourself before you are sent to Hell. I would hope anyway. If you are a horrible, evil person but accept Christ as your Savior, I don't think you will go to Heaven, as that would contradict the teachings of Christ and the morality of the religion as a whole.

I really hope I made sense, I'm operating on 48 hours with no sleep. Those are my basic thoughts and beliefs on Christianity/spirituality.

reply to post by boncho

I think if I had followers two to three thousand years ago, I would have made up stories that made them listen to me too.....

I don't think what Jesus was saying are just "stories". There is more to it than that. I think its more a blueprint on how to reach enlightenment or reaching a state where you are master of self, body, mind, etc. More than just that though.

reply to post by dominicus


It's all or nothing man.

Either the OT and NT are both true and YHWH is God and Christ is YHWH,

Or none of it is true and Christ is as much a myth as YHWH,

The Truth of the matter is it's all real and it's all God's word,

Don't let a deceived world get you down

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by boncho

 

I think if I had followers two to three thousand years ago, I would have made up stories that made them listen to me too.....

I don't think what Jesus was saying are just "stories". There is more to it than that. I think its more a blueprint on how to reach enlightenment or reaching a state where you are master of self, body, mind, etc. More than just that though.

Did people listen to Jesus, or did they listen to the people that talked about Jesus...

Historical Jesus:

The historical Jesus is believed to be a Galilean Jew who undertook at least one pilgrimage to Jerusalem, then part of Roman Judaea, during a time of messianic and apocalyptic expectations in late Second Temple Judaism.[3][4] He was baptized by John the Baptist, whose example he may have followed, and after John was executed, began his own preaching in Galilee for only about two to three years prior to his death.

He was an eschatological prophet and an autonomous ethical teacher.[5] He told surprising and original parables, many of them about the coming Kingdom of God.[6] Some scholars credit the apocalyptic declarations of the Gospels to him, while others portray his Kingdom of God as a moral one, and not apocalyptic in nature.[7] He sent his apostles out to heal and to preach the Kingdom of God.[8]

Later, he traveled to Jerusalem where he caused a disturbance at the Temple.[3] It was the time of Passover, when political and religious tensions were high in Jerusalem.[3] The Gospels say that the temple guards (believed to be Sadducees) arrested him and turned him over to the Roman governor Pontius Pilate for execution. The movement he had started survived his death and was carried on by his brother James the Just and the apostles who proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus.[9] After splitting with Rabbinic Judaism, it developed into Early Christianity.

Link

Martin Luther King had a huge following as well, and what he spoke about is considered pretty normal today. Although, in the climate of racial indifference, he was speaking about something that completely went against common rationality at the time.

Perhaps if it were a few thousand years ago, after his death people would claim him to be sent from god as well. Or maybe that still might happen...

Originally posted by dominicus
If I was God and I knew that creating people would result in losing most of them to hell where they will suffer forever and ever, then it would not be worth it to create all this for the sake of those that would have to suffer in hell.

I am SO glad you are not God, then. You'd be terrible. What would be the whole point? Just, self existing by yourself, forever? You wouldn't even be God, because you would be lonely. God wanted a family, but God wanted a perfect family. Perfection comes through trial and fire. His Children are to return to perfect unity with Him, at the last trumpet.

Also let's look around us. The murders, wars, rapes, beatings, hunger, molestation, all of which makes me cringe and sick to my stomach when I think about it. I refuse to just live my life and ignore all of that. We are in a realm of hell here on earth and all we do is try and put blinders on to the BS around us.

Yea, let's look around us. I see friends, I see families, I see newborn babies and husbands and wives rejoicing. I see people helping each other out, I see kindness and genuine love. People getting married, people falling in love, people having babies, people seeing their kids grow up, kids holding their new baby kittens or puppies. Cotton candy, daffodils, all that good stuff.

It makes me feel so great, seeing all these people be happy. If anything, it all makes life worth it; just seeing another happy. We're in a realm of darkness, of hell, but there is still good on this planet - and good comes only from God. That's what God is all about, after all. Love. Family. Communion.

So I see this as not worth it. The atrocities on earth & the risk of forever in hell is not worth the risk for all of this to be here. And yet all of this is here and the atrocities are obvious. This is something I myself have to reconcile because alot of things don't make sense in the big picture.

I see it as worth it. I also know how EASY God made it. All one has to do, is believe that Jesus is God, and that he came here in the flesh, died for our sins, and forgave the ENTIRE WORLD of all of their sins. That will get you into Heaven, and that alone is proof of how much God loves everyone - simply believe, and it will be given.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still all about Jesus and see him as the Neo of this Matrix world we live in who basically gives us a formula for leaving this damned world. But overall the OT, sin, human attributes given to the OT God don't really make alot of sense and the answers I've gotten about this from Theologians and Books and such, are your run of the mill "best answers they can think of" type.

Yes, Jesus is set as our example, but we can never be the same as him. We fail to do so everyday. Even our so-called "righteous" acts are an extension of our own selfishness. But that isn't the point. We try to become a better person, but that isn't how we get to Heaven. All one needs to do.. is believe in Jesus. That he IS God, in the flesh. That he died for our sins. Just as the Thief on the Cross did, and inherited eternal life, just by believing. Just by saying "Remember me." (Luke 23:39-43)

God bless.

reply to post by dominicus


Regarding animal sacrifices, these were the same animals that would have been unceremoniously butchered and eaten anyway. So what's wrong with a devout ceremony of sacrifice where the animal was eaten? And sacrifice was common in almost all religions.

I don't know about the rest of it. Good questions. But does it matter if what you believe makes you a better person?

reply to post by Lionhearte

I see it as worth it. I also know how EASY God made it. All one has to do, is believe that Jesus is God, and that he came here in the flesh, died for our sins, and forgave the ENTIRE WORLD of all of their sins. That will get you into Heaven, and that alone is proof of how much God loves everyone - simply believe, and it will be given.

If god loved everyone, why did he make a bunch of people full of sin that can barely function without killing each other or themselves, requiring them to do the opposite of the natural urges he instilled.

That's like saying I love my lab rat that I infected with a viral agent asking it not to spread the virus to it's neighboring rats.

No, if god loved everyone, he would wouldn't supposedly send them to hell if they foul up. That's what you call unconditional love. It's no wonder some religious folk have trouble understanding this and transferring it to their own kids...

reply to post by dominicus


You are correct sir... S&F

OT God(s) are not the same as the one Jesus spoke of...

He spoke of a merciful, Just and Loving God... None of which you can see in the maniacal, Jellous, envious, raving lunitic you read about in the OT...

Don't be decieved by silly christians that try to say all or nothing... its not one book...

They are not one and the same God

And the bible isn't Gods word... though it can be found within

Gods word came from his son... Not from the OT, aside from the 10 commandments

There are only hints of the true God within the OT

reply to post by boncho


Ohh Boncho, I knew you would be in this thread with your typical one-liners.

I think if I had followers two to three thousand years ago, I would have made up stories that made them listen to me too.....

Would you have prophecies regarding your birth? Surely you would have orchestrated them, though, right? Like where you were born- oh wait, that's kind of hard to do. Maybe foretelling future events? Err, that's pretty tough, as well. I don't know how Jesus would have pulled it off.. unless, you know, he was God.

Did people listen to Jesus, or did they listen to the people that talked about Jesus...

Let's see.. the reason the Bible is, well, the Bible, is because it's a historical collection of works. Historians have certain criteria in order to consider it authentic pieces of factual history. That's undeniable, that the Bible is historical documentation. Were you there when the Bible was written (even though it was written by 40 separate authors over thousands of years)? were you there when pen touched papyrus? No, you weren't - yet you know it's historical documentation, just like, say, the Constitution of the United States.

So, this "collection" of historical documents had an origination. It all began with eye witness accounts, which is why you have INDEPENDENT TESTIMONIES - that is why the Gospels seemingly don't "agree" with each other (they tell the same core story, but have different perspectives and details). Truly I tell you, if they were all in 100% agreement with each other, you would be sitting here saying "collusion!"

So, from the eye witness accounts, to the independent testimonies, to ORAL TRADITION (which is self-correcting, as there were over 500 witnesses and they all saw the same thing, and everyone at the time knew who this "Jesus" character was, that's undeniable), to WRITTEN ACCOUNTS, which were indeed "copied" and "copied" again - which isn't an issue when you're considering what we're talking about here. These were considered sacred religious texts. They weren't copied by some 17 year old kid who did a sloppy job copying them word for word - these were handled by scholars, monks; professionals. People who did this sort of thing their whole life, and they knew the importance of the documents. They were also "checked" by those they were under authority for, and if they made any mistakes, it meant their lives.

Eye witness accounts. Independent testimonies. Oral tradition. Written accounts. Collected all into one book, the Holy Bible.

We can be pretty sure that those they were talking about, those that we Christians believe in, IS the Historical Jesus, with basic logical reasoning.

Originally posted by boncho
If god loved everyone, why did he make a bunch of people full of sin that can barely function without killing each other or themselves, requiring them to do the opposite of the natural urges he instilled.

That's like saying I love my lab rat that I infected with a viral agent asking it not to spread the virus to it's neighboring rats.

No, if god loved everyone, he would wouldn't supposedly send them to hell if they foul up. That's what you call unconditional love. It's no wonder some religious folk have trouble understanding this and transferring it to their own kids...

Free will. We're full of sin, because we're born into it. You didn't infect them with anything. The proper analogy would be like this - you had two lab rats, who you were training and told them not to bite into some infected cheese. They did anyways, now them and all their descendants are "infected" with this disease. Now them and all their offspring, you offered a cure.

All they had to do was take it. And they didn't.

Whose fault is that? Yours? These rats are dying, but they won't let you touch them. And all this time, they mock you and spit in your face and blame you for their suffering, when you could soooo easily cure them.

You could, of course, FORCE the cure upon them - just like God could - but that would be in violation of Free Will, and that would make God.. not-God.

reply to post by Lionhearte

I am SO glad you are not God, then. You'd be terrible. What would be the whole point? Just, self existing by yourself, forever? You wouldn't even be God, because you would be lonely. God wanted a family, but God wanted a perfect family. Perfection comes through trial and fire. His Children are to return to perfect unity with Him, at the last trumpet.

Well of course I'm not God ...but saying hypothetically. Alot of people who would "hypothetically" play this roll, wouldn't have done alot of things that are attributed to God in the Bible like the killing of all the Caananites, they're women, and they're children. Just saying.

Yea, let's look around us. I see friends, I see families, I see newborn babies and husbands and wives rejoicing. I see people helping each other out, I see kindness and genuine love. People getting married, people falling in love, people having babies, people seeing their kids grow up, kids holding their new baby kittens or puppies. Cotton candy, daffodils, all that good stuff. It makes me feel so great, seeing all these people be happy. If anything, it all makes life worth it; just seeing another happy. We're in a realm of darkness, of hell, but there is still good on this planet - and good comes only from God. That's what God is all about, after all. Love. Family. Communion.

So were supposed to enjoy these things when there is rapes, murders, addicts, hungry kids just around the corner? How can we "enjoy" when there are atrocities everywhere? Why have kids when there are kids who need adopting?

I see it as worth it. I also know how EASY God made it. All one has to do, is believe that Jesus is God, and that he came here in the flesh, died for our sins, and forgave the ENTIRE WORLD of all of their sins. That will get you into Heaven, and that alone is proof of how much God loves everyone - simply believe, and it will be given.

Its all good & everything but then we're going to be missing out on a lot of people who won't choose this.

Yes, Jesus is set as our example, but we can never be the same as him. We fail to do so everyday. Even our so-called "righteous" acts are an extension of our own selfishness. But that isn't the point. We try to become a better person, but that isn't how we get to Heaven. All one needs to do.. is believe in Jesus. That he IS God, in the flesh. That he died for our sins. Just as the Thief on the Cross did, and inherited eternal life, just by believing. Just by saying "Remember me." (Luke 23:39-43)

I dont know if its really that clean cut. We have Jesus saying that to enter heaven you have to be born of water & spirit. I know alot of Christians who have had baptism, but few who have gotten the Holy Spirit experience.

"He said to them, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’ "

So it doesnt really seem that cut & dry. I know many who believed but eventually left.

This may just be the perfect book for you...

Escaping the Matrix: Setting Your Mind Free to Experience Real Life in Christ

www.amazon.com...

I doubt anybody on ATS knos of Gregory A Boyd, which is a shame... especially for all those 'Christians' that contribute to this site, for he answers many of the questions that are asked on ATS.

He's a freakin Christian dogma genius...

In some way or another most of us are "stuck"-in a secret sin we can't control or maybe by an inability to stand up for ourselves.
In Escaping the Matrix, authors Gregory A. Boyd and Al Larson use the vehicle of The Matrix film trilogy to argue that our struggles with habitual sin, thought patterns, damaged emotions, and phobias happen because we do not know how to take charge of the way we experience reality. The authors draw on biblical and psychological insights to provide practical resources for helping believers escape the matrix of the world system that ensnares them. While this book is aimed at the newest generation of Christian readers, all ages will be inspired by the book's innovative strategies for experiencing a deeper life in Christ.
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who is mr. Boyd..

Gregory A. Boyd is the founder and senior pastor of Woodland Hills Church in St. Paul, Minn., and founder and president of Christus Victor Ministries. He was a professor of theology at Bethel College (St. Paul, Minn.) for sixteen years where he continues to serve as an Adjunct Professor. Greg is a graduate of the University of Minnesota (BA), Yale Divinity School (M.Div), and Princeton Theological Seminary (PhD). Greg is a national and international speaker at churches, colleges, conferences, and retreats, and has appeared on numerous radio and television shows. He has also authored and coauthored eighteen books prior to Present Perfect, including The Myth of a Christian Religion, The Myth of a Christian Nation, The Jesus Legend (with Paul Eddy), Seeing Is Believing, Repenting of Religion, and his international bestseller Letters from a Skeptic.

www.amazon.com...=ntt_athr_dp_pel_pop_1
list of his works, and his short bio on amazon

reply to post by Lionhearte

Would you have prophecies regarding your birth? Surely you would have orchestrated them, though, right? Like where you were born- oh wait, that's kind of hard to do. Maybe foretelling future events? Err, that's pretty tough, as well. I don't know how Jesus would have pulled it off.. unless, you know, he was God.

Yes, because none of it could be fabricated, abused, misinterpreted... right?

Due to the prophecies, it was expected that the Messiah would come from Bethlehem and be a son of King David, who was the second king of the United Kingdom of Israel, according to the Hebrew Bible. That perhaps is one reason why the genealogy in Matthew links Jesus to the House of David.

DN: But Jesus is said to have been born of a poor family in Nazareth, and he conducted much of his ministry at the Sea of Galilee?

RH: Precisely. There is no reason why Jesus should have come from Nazareth, which was never mentioned in the prophecies, or that he should have begun his work at the Sea of Galilee.

*

Let's see.. the reason the Bible is, well, the Bible, is because it's a historical collection of works. Historians have certain criteria in order to consider it authentic pieces of factual history. That's undeniable, that the Bible is historical documentation.

No it's not. It is not at all. In fact, it is the anathema to historical documents. Historical documents include references to publicly filed information. Information, papers and texts that are part of historical accounts because they are notarized, or documented publicly.

Religion back then was a private enterprise.

DN: What permitted Christianity to spread so quickly?

RH: Paul the apostle was a marketing genius. The notion of conversion targeted everyone, and along the way the message of Jesus was universalized. According to Paul, you didn't have to be ethnically Jewish, or follow the laws of Judaism, in order to follow Jesus.

DN: Who funded and supported Paul?

RH: He was supported mostly by wealthy widows. These were women with both money and autonomy. They bankrolled early Christianity. They also kept the teachings alive by holding services in their homes. Such "house churches" were common before cathedrals and other central meeting places were established.

Biblical scholar Rachel Havrelock is a MythBuster in her own right, dispelling popular beliefs about Christianity. The University of Illinois at Chicago professor traveled to the Holy Land to co-host the Discovery Channel documentary "Who Was Jesus?"

reply to post by dominicus


I agree with you one hundred percent.
You are not alone on this, either: Early Christians; Marcionites; and Cathars are of the same opinion.

Did you know the cult of Mary/Isis did not emerge until 1000 years after Christ?
Did you know that much of what is in the "New Testament" are the interpolations or even complete inserts of Freemasons?
Did you know Jehovah/YHWH, god of the Jews, was not a focal point for Christians until the early 19th century (see Freemasons John Nelson Darby; Joseph Smith; Charles Taze Russell).

The Catholic Church had been infiltrated by Freemasonry; Rosicrucians; Knights Templar; Talmudic Jews (see Pope Sixtus V for one notable example of its corrosive effects esp. St. Peter's Basilica).

Beware of modern hijacked interpretations of Gnosticism, but do study Early Christian Apocrypha, especially
The Gospel of Marcion; The Apocryphon of John; The Acts of John; The Revelation of John; The Gospel of Thomas; The Acts and Martyrdom of the Holy Apostle Andrew; On the Origin of the World...

When reading what is now called the "NT", the most accurate translation from Koine Greek is the New American Standard Bible. Most other versions are less true to the original text or even utter corruptions.

reply to post by dominicus

Myself being a Christian Mystic, I did a Bible study with a fellow a few years back, and he was fairly new to the Bible. He wanted to start in the OT and build up to Christ's arrival on the scene. Well we eventually get to the Jew's slaughter of animals to pay for sin, and that's when he just couldn't handle anymore. His argument being, by what right do people have to slaughter innocent animals to cover their sins? Why would God, who put us in a place where sin is inevitable, only be satisfied by the slaughter of innocent animals for atonement?

Yeshua never sanctioned animal sacrifice period and never will you read anywhere in the NT where he did sanction it. In fact, he told Jeremiah he never taught the jews sacrificing animals or burnt offerings when they came out of Egypt, they did that on their own after they broke the first covenant. The only killing of an animal God sanctioned was the first passover lamb so the angel of death would ignore the hebrew homes with the lambs blood painted on it. The burnt offerings and sacrifices were to the Queen of Heaven Astoreth who in one of her many other incarnations (Semiramis) taught sacrificing animals to pay for sins by sending the animal to sheol in your place. The burnt offerings and sacrifices began with the golden calf.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Interesting you say that... yet many argue that paul still made animal sacrifices...

Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of purification, until the offering was offered for every one of them” (Acts 21:26).

reply to post by dominicus

I have read a theory that the OT God was a demiurge, which would make sense because of the jealousy, the regret for the flood, the blood thirst to cover sins, the orders to kill all the armies, the children, and to take the women for themselves. None of that makes sense when God is beyond & above regret, jealousy, and the way humans think. God is Love & transcendent & knows before hand.

The apostle Paul's gospel was of a "righteousness from God, apart from the Law(Torah)" Romans 3:21. You may want to look up Marcion. He was an early Christian heretic. He taught that theory of evil OT demiurge. It becomes quite evident that the OT character falls far short of what we would consider as a deity worthy of respect. I seriously doubt that such a being could create at all, seeing as he is so mighty to destroy.

If you consider Jesus as told by the author of Gospel of John, you will easily see a great difference between the OT god (Yahweh) and the God of Jesus.

reply to post by dominicus

Well of course I'm not God ...but saying hypothetically. Alot of people who would "hypothetically" play this roll, wouldn't have done alot of things that are attributed to God in the Bible like the killing of all the Caananites, they're women, and they're children. Just saying.

Yea, but you're saying "If you were God" from a Human perspective. If you were actually God, you'd do the same things He did, because you would have His understanding, His feelings, His knowledge.

So were supposed to enjoy these things when there is rapes, murders, addicts, hungry kids just around the corner? How can we "enjoy" when there are atrocities everywhere? Why have kids when there are kids who need adopting?

I'm not saying to tolerate them. I'm saying there's two sides to every story, two faces to the same coin. Evil flourishes in this world when good men do nothing.

Its all good & everything but then we're going to be missing out on a lot of people who won't choose this.

There's a reason why me, and the other Christians on this board even bother talking about this stuff. Deep down, we've all hated people, at some point or another. It took the awakening from the prevenient grace of God, to open our eyes. The only reason we bother telling people the good news, is because we DON'T want anyone to go to Hell, not even our worst enemies. And it's so simple too.

I dont know if its really that clean cut. We have Jesus saying that to enter heaven you have to be born of water & spirit. I know alot of Christians who have had baptism, but few who have gotten the Holy Spirit experience.

John 3:1-8.

1 Now there came a man of the Pharisees whose name was Nicodemus, a member of the council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could do the miraculous signs that you do unless God were with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”

5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born from above.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Being born of the flesh, is born of water. Being born of the spirit, is being born-anew. A baptism of water is not required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I myself have never been baptized with water, not even as a child. And how does one become born-anew? The coup de grace, John 3:16 -

16 For this is the way God loved the world: he gave his one and only Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

As I've already said, the Thief is the proof. He was condemned for thievery, for crying out loud. He wasn't a practitioner of the law, he was a sinner, just like the rest of us. Even at death's door, he knew he was set for eternity in hell - and didn't even ask Jesus to save him, but to simply remember him. For his faith, for his belief, Jesus gave him eternal life.