Star trails prove that the earth does not move?

reply to post by sinthia


You should do this experiment on your own, use the bike wheel, or any other circular object say a plate, and than add a quarter to the outside rim of the plate.

Slowly rotate the plate, and than try and imagine the quarter spinning, do you see how this would create the effect you are asking about?

say with the light in the room above it being the north star...

Originally posted by sinthia
i'll have a look at analemma's and think it through.
Thanks for your help, but i'm still as confused. I can't get how you can see a circular star trail, yet looking at exactly the same stars you get a much faster and bigger distance movement of the orbit undetected. I know in my head what I mean but can't get it across. back later thanks

try this than, go outside hold a tennis ball up in the air above you, look at that ball now spin in circles as fast as you can.

everything will be moving in a circular motion around you except the tennis ball which will stay in that position above you.

your feet to the tennis ball is the axis similar to the north pole-south pole-polaris/north star. your feet being the south pole your head the north pole and the tennis ball the north star. and your eyes is what the camera in the photo sees.

make sense?

reply to post by benrl


I just re-read the link, for crying out loud, really? seriously?

I face palm for humanity...

What hes talking about is BS, simply because the time scale he suggest to use is wrong, You need to do the time lapse thing over the course of the year and than compile the images over the years time to see the rest of the rotation around the sun...

Hes taking one data set for one day to say the earth isn't moving, that is the height of fricken stupidity, no Offense op the error is his not yours, you did the right thing bring this here so we could explain the concept properly.

Trust me the earth is moving, Snipers have to adjust for the earths movement when shooting, GPS devices, our entire civilization is based off the movement of the earth around the sun, even your cell phone takes those movements into account triangulate the signals to know which cell tower to route you too.

If any of that was wrong, than the tech wouldn't work.

they even try to say a Foucault Pendulum is a scam...

Reading this page is only pissing me off.

LOOK I am a 100% bible believing christian, this website that you posted makes Christians look like backward idiots.

Science is not bad, and As a christian I believe my beliefs are true and that science will only end up proving them. Nature screams out to the glory of god, that includes the entirety of the universe and all its glory...

And as science expands and the wonders of the universe grows it only proves gods existence to me not the reverse...

Its websites like that, that make the rest of us reasonable intelligent Christians look bad.

Originally posted by sinthia

I can't get my head round why the rotation is visable but the orbit isn't.

It's visible every single day, with the changing of the seasons.

reply to post by sinthia


I'll try:

I can't get how you can see a circular star trail, yet looking at exactly the same stars you get a much faster and bigger distance movement of the orbit undetected.

The "circular star trail" you refer to is what happens when a long exposure is made, of the stars, and the cameras is aimed towards one of Earth's poles. And, by "long exposure", I mean many hours.....5, 6 maybe.

The stars, in the long exposure (the camera shutter remains open the entire time) "streak" on the film, because of the Earth's local rotation movement.

Now, do the same long exposure, but at the Equator. This time, all you will get are parallel, horizontal "streaks" of light, because (again) of the Earth's rotation.

ALL the rest of our movement, as an entire body (the planet) or even the entire Solar System, as an entity, is separate from the local effect of our rotation.

Back to you, and you just turning in place, as before. Imagine you are on a railroad flatcar, so it is open on all sides, and it is moving at ten MPH. Look at the mountains that are 100 miles away.....they will seem not to change positions at all. Put a light on top of one mountain.

Now, while on that flatcar, begin to turn around in one spot. Suddenly, that light on the mountain top seems to move. THAT is "illusion" based solely on your local movement, i.e., your rotation.

One more thing: Let's put a roof of glass over you now, with polka dots painted on it. The roof is suspended from above, so you still have the same clear view all around.

While you are standing in place, on this moving flatcar (that is travelling at 10 MPH), crane your neck back to look upwards, at the polka dots. If you're lucky, you may be directly underneath one of those dots. That one would not appear to move, as you rotate, but the others would seem to move in arced paths, right?

(This would mimic th effect of the "North Star", or Polaris. It is not exactly aligned with the Earth's geographic pole, or axis of rotation, but is reasonably close).

Now......before confusion increases......that glass roof with the dots is meant to represent stars hundreds or thousands of light years away....you got that, I hope? There is a limit to the mental picture, in order to explain it, and compromises have to be made.


Star Trail Photography

Read that ^ ^ ^

Originally posted by sinthia
Is this right

www.earth-central.weebly.com

The upshoot is that star trails show rotation but show nothing in connection with earths orbit of the sun. Sounds silly, but I can't think of a good answer?

The fact that we have "Summer constellations" and "Winter constellations" shows were are moving around the Sun.

For example, the constellation of "Orion" is visible only in the late fall/Winter/spring. That's because the part of the earth facing away from the Sun at that time (the night side of the Earth) is facing toward Orion. During the summer, when the Earth has moved around to the other side of the Sun, Orion would then be on the side of the Earth facing the Sun (the daytime side), and thus would not be visible, because Orion would be in the daytime sky

If there was a total solar eclipse during a summer day, and the sunlight was blocked, the stars we would see in the sky during that summer daytime eclipse would be the same stars we see on a winter night.


EDIT TO ADD:
I found a picture that explains exactly what I'm talking about (and even used "Orion" as the same example constellation):

Image Source

By the way, stars such as Polaris (the North Star) that are generally "over" the poles of the Earth will always be visible no matter what the season is. That's because the Earth's orbit around the Sun is on a flat plane, and what is "straight up" or "straight down" above and below that plane doesn't perceptibly change as the Earth orbits around the Sun.

reply to post by sinthia


The problem is that humans are not that good at thinking in 3D (probably because we are limited to walk on the ground), so we have some problems understanding something like a movement along the 3 axis (and in solving a Rubik's cube ).

Analemma like these show that the Sun doesn't follow exactly the same path each day, and if they did the same thing with the stars you could see the composite movement.

Something more or less like this.



PS: I know, not much of a scientific explanation, but I hope it helps.

reply to post by ArMaP

The problem is that humans are not that good at thinking in 3D ....

Well....that generalization does not apply to the entire population.

However, you are correct, and I thought about bringing that up in previous post entries.....just didn't get "round" to it.

No this does not sound silly. This actually dives deeper in the conspiracy that space doesn't exist, stars/planets are hologram like figures, UFO's are tools of trickery, CNN is lying when they say they found a "billion" planets etc.

A unicorn has 1 horn. A universe, would mean 1. If there are millions and millions and millions of planets...why not a multi-verse? Why are we being selfish? Why are there so many conspiracy's about the Moon Landings? 40 + years later since we first stepped foot up there, yet thousands and thousands still dont believe it. Why is this? Just a hunch?


Or is there something inside us humans that is trying to tell us to WAKE the f UP

reply to post by holywar666


Huh??

Last I checked, this was the "Space Exploration" forum.

This is where science resides.

I was just reading some of the OP's replies. I think I see where his confusion is. He stated that the earth rotates on it's axis much slower than it's velocity around the sun: 1,000 Mph vs 67,000 Mph, and is wondering why if we see the stars streak from the earth's meager 1,000 Mph, why we don't see any other movement clearly visible when taking pictures from the earth's orbital velocity around the sun as it's 67 times greater.

Many of you have give some great links, information, and things for the OP to try.

However, it does not seem to answer their above question, so let me try:

The Earth spins on it's axis at about 1,000 Mph. If you are standing at it's equator, you're moving with it of course, and the distance traveled in that spin is about 24,000 miles. This takes about 24 hours of course.

Now, let's take a look at the Earth's orbit. It's moving around the sun at about 67,000 Mph, 67 times faster than it's spinning. However, the Earth has to travel about 584,040,000 miles to make a complete orbit around the sun (that's using 93 million miles as the average radius).

It takes us a whole year to make that journey.

Now, the closest star (other than our sun) is about 4.3 light years away. That is 25,278,089,104,689.48 miles away.

So let's break it down to a smaller scale. You're on a carousel that is 24 feet around. It's spinning so that you go all the way around in 10 seconds, so your velocity is 2.4 feet per second.
Now let's say this carousel is mounted on a flatbed truck, which is going down the freeway at 67 times that speed, or 160.8 feet per second (that's one FAST truck!).
Now, let's use a skyscraper instead of a star, and it's about 2.5 miles away, the truck is traveling so that it's on the right side of it as it moves down the road.

As you look at that building 2.5 miles away, it will arc across your field of view (because the carousel is spinning, AND you're stuck facing one direction from it: Out. So that building comes in your field of view every 5 seconds, and is gone because you're facing away from it. This is just like when the earth spins.

But that truck is moving too, and a LOT faster right? Ah! Yes, but that building is WAY far away. It's 2.5 miles away. Each time it comes into your field of view, it will seem to have moved a little (the same way the constellations appear to move as the year goes by), but while you get to watch it for 5 seconds, it does not seem to move hardly at all. As a mater of fact, you'll have to spin around many times on that carousel before you see any significant movement (just like here on Earth, as it takes many nights before you notice that the constellations are not in the same place they were a week earlier at the same time of night).

If you were to mount a camera to the carousel and take a long term exposure of the building, it would appear to streak across the frame, but you would not see any OTHER movement.

Why? I just explained why: you'd have to expose the frame for days and days is why. And your field of view is being interrupted as the carousel spins around, removing the building from view.

So to sum up:

The stars streak in one direction on your film, because you can only expose them for so long at night, and the earth's rotation while slower than it's orbit around the sun, makes our field of view change rapidly. However, you can not expose your film long enough to see the stars positions change in other ways due to the Earth's movement around the sun, simply because of how long that take (even thought it's faster than spin) and because of how far away those stars are..

Now, if you were to go out, mount a camera in one spot, and take 10 minute exposure, at the same time every time, with the camera pointed in the same direction, then overlay each photo on top of each other: you WOULD see movement other than just from one side to the other! But it will take you a week or so to get that.

Originally posted by benrl
Get in your car and drive on the freeway, go nuts take your car at the max you can.

Now look to your right, objects near appear to move fast.

Now look in the distance, say as far as you can see, pick an object, watch it.


Hey that doesn't move much either... Does that mean your cars not moving?

I tried this and crshed right into a NASA billboard of outer space.
Now I am not moving at all. Thanks a bunch!

reply to post by longjohnbritches

I tried this and crshed right into a NASA billboard of outer space.

If you stand in the middle of a room and spin around half way slowly, can you still see the same parts of the room?
That's rotation

Now standing in the same spot, facing the original direction, take a few steps to the left or right quickly. What do you see now? Pretty much the same view, right?
that's revolution (basically)

reply to post by spacedoubt


Are you confusing "rotation" with "revolution"??

( Grin )

reply to post by ProudBird


oops, I almost edited your post..

my head IS spinning...

no, I don't think I confused them. just your post versus mine..

reply to post by ProudBird


Depending on what you are talking about.
But normally speaken, rotation is the cicular movement of an object around it's axis or around another object.
revolution could be defined as a distance of the rotating object, like a gear on a bike, when its back at its starting point it made one revolution but the gear itself is rotating.

Or im confussing things?

all in all, this topic is making me dizzy.

Rotation is generally directional.
Revolution is general defining something that repeats itself.

The top is rotating clockwise.
The car engine is idling at 750 RPMs (Revolutions Per Minute)

The Earth rotates on it's axis. It has one revolution every 24 hours.

Unless you're talking about people uprising against a government......which is a revolution.

But that can get ugly and be revolting.........

I'm obviously tired and need to go to bed as I'm babbling, and my head is spinning............

reply to post by intergalactic fire


LOL!!:

all in all, this topic is making me dizzy.

I believe this is what the OP is having difficulty with!

The point is, and I hope someone can clarify this is (as I've tried to explain) within a "LOCAL" environment, such as we might consider ourselves (on a GALACTIC scale) here, in our Solar System....any of the motion of the Earth, whether as it orbits our Sun, or as it moves along in the "larger" sense, of the entire Solar System that is also orbiting the center of the Galaxy....we can, for a few thousand YEARS of Human history IGNORE the motion of the Solar System...and the OTHER relative motions of ALL Of The Other Stars in the Galaxy!

Per our own little, tiny sliver of a fraction of our experience of life! A what" At most, 50? 60? 70? 80, or a 100 years of life? Within any one person's lifetime, we cannot perceive.....we must, therefore, depend on...nay, RELY upon those who have become before us, who have struggled to learn, and then we MUST carry on their teachings, and build upon those teachings, and learn ever more.

EVERY generation of Humans teaches, and that builds, builds, builds and BUILDS! Because, no one person can live long enough....the knowledge must be imparted to those who will carry it on.

here it is, men.....
it's not about the speed it's the time for a revolution.......one day vs one year.....so I'm saying the difference is 365 to 1.......so the picture would show star streaks that would only be crooked by 365th as much as they are long